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Pelikan Steel Vs Gold Nib


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#21 Chrissy

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 11:58

I have to say I prefer my M400's with gold nibs, and I don't mind whether they are nails or not.  :)


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#22 ernieh

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 12:05

It appears M800 is not a popular option ? (no offence)

Please bear with me for the many questions. For those tipped nibs, would the tip likely be iridium, be it gold or steel nib?

And Runnin_Ute's post makes me start to think of buying pen from one who will tune the nib before shipping. Sadly there should be no such expert in my home city and I will need to go online.

#23 sargetalon

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 12:14

It appears M800 is not a popular option ?


I find the M800 to be a very popular option. Its just higher tier and more expensive.

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#24 Bo Bo Olson

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 12:31

That is modern 400/600...it is not so with the vintage '45-54 & '50-60's or semi-vintage '80-90's.

 

The only steel nib I have from Pelikan in the '45-65 era is the regular flex 120. I have steel Osmia and a Geha steel nib that are = to their or Pelikan's gold nibs.

My '82-97 era...my W.Germany 200's steel nib is a slight tad more springy than my '90's gold M400, 381 and Celebry. I have two Celebry pens, the gold nib is = to the steel one. The steel one is = to my modern 215 or Amethyst. The 400 is M the 381 OB, the Celebry nibs are F's even if I can't see that and am not going to try to yank apart a pen to see what my eyes tell me. If a pen don't want to come apart easily. I will not force it.

 

The last two are M's so are smooth enough.

I'll find out how scratchy a steel EF can be by the end of the month.

 

Mana has some good points here...........""""My vintage pens (mostly Pelikans, 100Ns, 140s, 400NNs) have gold nibs that range from EEF to BBB. They are very smooth when handled properly. Meaning, very light touch and right writing angle, applying more force/pressure only on downstrokes etc. If not handled properly > problems.""

I have only a couple EF's.....mostly F/M/B and some OBB's but only one OBBB and that is way to wide to use...a 500's nib. It took me three months to lighten my hand with a semi-flex 140 OB....then the next pen forced me to lighten my Hand even more in it was a maxi-semi-flex 400NN OF.

 

I'd not realized there was that much trouble using the stubbed semi-flex nibs......but I never went back to nail, nor semi-nail....and I was a semi-flex snob for quite a while, before finding regular flex to be quite nice, and better for shading inks. I was swimming in semi-flex pens, being in Germany and it being cheaper 'back then' some 10-7 years ago.

""""I actually prefer the natural feedback that they offer to the "gliding on glass" feeling that a wet, very smooth nib on the right kind of paper affords.""""

I do have a couple butter smooth pens....that can not really be used on slick paper.....good for 'laid' paper. :rolleyes: My few toothy nibs are not good for laid paper. :P 

 

I call it good and smooth, the level under butter smooth, and is what I want. I could have worked and worked and worked on my old nibs to get them 'butter smooth'. All I wanted was to remove the 'iridium rust' of sitting in the dark of a drawer for a couple of generations.

 

The lubrication of the ink used can make a good and smooth nib 'butter smooth' or take a butter smooth nib and make it good and smooth if a dry ink is used. What paper used makes a huge difference.

It is my understanding too many people here cheap out on paper and then blame the nib or the ink. I can understand having a work pen and ink for very poor cheap paper at work............good to better paper only costs two cups of Starbuck's coffee.....and no one is forced to use poor paper, out side they are cheap.

If a student only drinks cheap home made instant coffee, they are excused....if they go to a Starbucks to see and be seen..............then they can afford to pay twice as much as regular 80g copy paper for some good scribbling 90g laser paper....for private use, not to be wasted in a printer. 500 sheets of scribble paper can last a year or more.

 

What do you want the ink to do????? Do you want it to shade like me???? Or do you want a wet line vivid monotone line...(super gel ink :P )? There is sheen....glitter is more mechanical.

You have to match paper and nib to what you want the ink to do. ;)


www.nibs.com/blog/nibster-writes/nibs-germany      Info on Bock nibs

 

Due to Mauricio's improved definition of Super-flex, I try not use the term Easy Full Flex, but fail...sigh.

 

Semi-flex is an “almost” flex; not a ‘flex’ nib. It is great for regular writing with a touch of flair. It can give you some fancy; but it is not made for real fancy writing. For bit more of that get a maxi-semi-flex. Both spread tines 3X.  Those are not "Flex" nibs. 

 

Wider than Normal does not exist. Wider than Japanese does. Every company has it's very own standard + slop/tolerance. Developed from the users of it's pens and inks only; not the users or inks of other companies pens. The size you grind a nib to, is your standard only. Paper and ink matter to nib width. Thank god for 1/2 sizes or it would be boring.


#25 Matlock

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 12:36

I have to say I prefer my M400's with gold nibs, and I don't mind whether they are nails or not.  :)

 

Fully agree with that. I my view, if you like a nib and the way it writes, then it is the best in the world. If you don't like it then it is the worst. It doesn't matter if it is a nail, flex or semi flex, if it is right for you then go for it. It matters not one jot what others think. Of course the same applies to those with very strong views on nib qualities and characteristics, their chosen nib is the best in the world for them. Thankfully we are all very different.,


Peter


#26 Kevan

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Posted 21 November 2017 - 15:47

The steel F nib will be a true fine nib, with a bit of spring.  I disagree with those that characterize the steel nibs as really springy or flexy.  I have several M200 steel nibs and not a single one is what I'd call flexy or even springy.  Good writers, though.  And most importantly, true to the size stamped on the nib.  If you get an F, it'll be an F.

 

The gold nibs (I assume you're talking modern manufacture) are extremely wet, extremely smooth, and run wide.  An F gold nib will instead write like an M (if you're lucky).  But if you like wet, butter-smooth writing, they're your ticket.  If you want a fine line, then get an EF nib, nothing bigger.  But anything you get will most likely write like butter on glass.  Pelikan is good at that.

 

M800 nibs are nails.  One of my M400 nibs is soft, but the other is a nail.  My M600 nib is a nail as well.

 

For what it's worth, while the M800 is my favorite model of the ones I have (my 805 Stresemann is just so.....perfect), I use the M600 the most.  It is a very portable size that still feels good in the hand.  The M800 is too tall for most shirt pockets (but that doesn't matter if you carry it in a pen case).  The M200/400 size, while perfectly useable when posted, is a bit too small for me.  I don't have gorilla hands....still though it's a bit too thin for me to use for long writing.  But it's a perfect size to carry around in a notebook's pen loop.


Edited by Kevan, 21 November 2017 - 15:55.


#27 Bo Bo Olson

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Posted 21 November 2017 - 19:04

Springy as in Regular Flex...is a 200. Springier than a semi-nail's and wider tine spread than the 2 X max a semi-nail of course.

 

With " "s I try to differentiate always, between a springier than semi-nail regular flex and

'Springy' as in a Falcon, MB or Lamy Imporium, which has more tine bend (close to semi-flex tine bend), but not as much tine spread.  2 X as compared a regular flex's max 3X tine spread.

 

I see the 1000 as semi-flex....not 'Springy' in it has 3 X tine spread and is semi-flex.

 

I would never mistake a regular flex for a semi-flex even if both are in the 3 X tine spread set..........but semi-FLEX is often seen with only the last word. Regular-FLEX. :doh:...well the tines bend!!!! They spread all over the paper!!!! Must be a Flex pen....look at the Olympic split it did once.

 

Some folks with Jack Hammer hands could see both of the pretzels as the same.....unable to dig little grand canyons in the wood under the sheet of paper, like a nail should.


Edited by Bo Bo Olson, 21 November 2017 - 19:08.

www.nibs.com/blog/nibster-writes/nibs-germany      Info on Bock nibs

 

Due to Mauricio's improved definition of Super-flex, I try not use the term Easy Full Flex, but fail...sigh.

 

Semi-flex is an “almost” flex; not a ‘flex’ nib. It is great for regular writing with a touch of flair. It can give you some fancy; but it is not made for real fancy writing. For bit more of that get a maxi-semi-flex. Both spread tines 3X.  Those are not "Flex" nibs. 

 

Wider than Normal does not exist. Wider than Japanese does. Every company has it's very own standard + slop/tolerance. Developed from the users of it's pens and inks only; not the users or inks of other companies pens. The size you grind a nib to, is your standard only. Paper and ink matter to nib width. Thank god for 1/2 sizes or it would be boring.


#28 ernieh

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Posted 22 November 2017 - 12:05

What do you want the ink to do????? Do you want it to shade like me???? Or do you want a wet line vivid monotone line...(super gel ink :P )? There is sheen....glitter is more mechanical.
You have to match paper and nib to what you want the ink to do. ;)


I am using Diamine ink - which I find reasonably priced. How would it match Pelikan nib?

#29 Matlock

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Posted 22 November 2017 - 12:27

Another problem with steel nibs is their tendency to rust if not cleaned properly. I recently dug out a pen with a steel nib that I had put away without cleaning and it is now badly pitted. Entirely my own fault but it does show what can happen. The pen had been filled with Edelstein Sapphire. The pen was empty but I had not cleaned the nib unit properly. Sadly some people believe that stainless steel does not rust, but given the right (or wrong) conditions it will rust quite badly. I have now smacked myself on the wrist and fitted the pen with an old, semi flex 14k nib.  


Peter


#30 Tresconik

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Posted 22 November 2017 - 12:50

Another problem with steel nibs is their tendency to rust if not cleaned properly. I recently dug out a pen with a steel nib that I had put away without cleaning and it is now badly pitted. Entirely my own fault but it does show what can happen. The pen had been filled with Edelstein Sapphire. The pen was empty but I had not cleaned the nib unit properly. Sadly some people believe that stainless steel does not rust, but given the right (or wrong) conditions it will rust quite badly. I have now smacked myself on the wrist and fitted the pen with an old, semi flex 14k nib.  


Might I ask which nib this was?
Ive had it happen too, but only with low quality nibs. Never with JoWo or Pelikan

#31 Bo Bo Olson

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Posted 22 November 2017 - 13:00

Ernieh, There are over 200 Diamine inks, so I don't know which would be dryer or wetter.

Some of them do shade, so would be dryer.

The Pelikan nib is a wetter nib, designed to match a dry ink.


www.nibs.com/blog/nibster-writes/nibs-germany      Info on Bock nibs

 

Due to Mauricio's improved definition of Super-flex, I try not use the term Easy Full Flex, but fail...sigh.

 

Semi-flex is an “almost” flex; not a ‘flex’ nib. It is great for regular writing with a touch of flair. It can give you some fancy; but it is not made for real fancy writing. For bit more of that get a maxi-semi-flex. Both spread tines 3X.  Those are not "Flex" nibs. 

 

Wider than Normal does not exist. Wider than Japanese does. Every company has it's very own standard + slop/tolerance. Developed from the users of it's pens and inks only; not the users or inks of other companies pens. The size you grind a nib to, is your standard only. Paper and ink matter to nib width. Thank god for 1/2 sizes or it would be boring.


#32 Matlock

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Posted 22 November 2017 - 14:03

Might I ask which nib this was?
Ive had it happen too, but only with low quality nibs. Never with JoWo or Pelikan

 

Pelikan M205


Edited by Matlock, 22 November 2017 - 16:10.

Peter


#33 DrCodfish

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 00:45

A good discussion here, there is a little data and a lot of opinion, but it is general opinion gained from untold hours of experience (note, not trying to discount the opinions here, FP is as much art as science at least for us users).

 

Another opinion I heard  once was that 18K nibs preform better than 14K nibs.  This 'opinion' came from a FPN friend who has been using fountain pens for many years, and he even said that the difference is so slight that he could not be sure it  wasn't just bias based on the number '18'.  AI assumed as much so didn't rush out buy an 18K nib to test the theory, I was operating under the assumption that all my gold nibs were 14K.

 

But here is the funny thing:  As I was cleaning one of my more favored writers (not a Pelikan) I took a closer look and what do you know, that pen had an 18K nib.  It's a Bexley with a big fat 18K stub nib and gives me just the right amount of flex, and slides across the page like Peggy Fleming.  

 

The last thing I would add is just a restatement of what you heard t the very beginning:  Concealing your FP at work, no matter what pen or nib you use, if you are writing on (bleep) paper you are going to have trouble with your nibs seeming scratchy and the ink will bleed.  Before the age of ball points

paper manufacturers HAD to produce products that were FP friendly, because if they didn't they'd have gone out of business. Post BP, it is on you (us) to find paper that is at least reasonably FP friendly.



#34 DrCodfish

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 00:50

I use Diamine inks almost exclusively in all my pens and I have no problems with them.



#35 Runnin_Ute

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 01:18

I am using Diamine ink - which I find reasonably priced. How would it match Pelikan nib?


Diamine has over 100 different inks. Not all are shading inks for example.

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#36 ernieh

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 16:01

Ernieh, There are over 200 Diamine inks, so I don't know which would be dryer or wetter.
Some of them do shade, so would be dryer.
The Pelikan nib is a wetter nib, designed to match a dry ink.


I am using their Royal Blue

#37 ernieh

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 16:21

A good discussion here, there is a little data and a lot of opinion, but it is general opinion gained from untold hours of experience (note, not trying to discount the opinions here, FP is as much art as science at least for us users).


Well said... I truly appreciate that. Very fruitful and learnt a lot.

The last thing I would add is just a restatement of what you heard t the very beginning:  Concealing your FP at work, no matter what pen or nib you use, if you are writing on (bleep) paper you are going to have trouble with your nibs seeming scratchy and the ink will bleed.  Before the age of ball points
paper manufacturers HAD to produce products that were FP friendly, because if they didn't they'd have gone out of business. Post BP, it is on you (us) to find paper that is at least reasonably FP friendly.


That is sad realty.
In this digital age, fewer people really write, at least here in Hong Kong.

#38 pajaro

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 17:30

I am supposing that real world experience with the gold and steel Pelikan nibs is to discounted as opinion.  If it isn't done in a lab condition it is just opinion. 

 

If the paper is poor, floss the nib with a brass shim.  Ink crud also makes a nib seem scratchy.  With these nibs, if it seems scratchy, it needs maintence -- washing and flossing, perhaps a flush.  Oh, that is just opinion founded on experience. 

 

If you come here and ask questions, what are you looking for, if not opinion based on experience?


Edited by pajaro, 23 November 2017 - 17:32.

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#39 Bo Bo Olson

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 18:29

Pajaro....good point.

 

I was once a gold snob.....learned it here. :P

A good gold nib can be as good as a good steel nib. Osmia and Geha taught me that. I can't see any difference between my '90's Pelikan gold nibs and steel.

Often I wonder if the so called 'softer' gold nib is not a semi-nail being compared to a steel nail.

 

 

Mana mentioned some points.....and one I forgot to stress, lots of fountain pen users hold the fountain pen high like a ball point..........between that and Ham Fistedness which is why the 400/600 are semi-nail, the 800 a nail (instead of regular flex of the 80-90's)....and have the fat blobby double kugal nib ..so ball point writers could be comfortable with a fountain pen with out having to learn how to hold it correctly.

....the fatter a nib the smoother it is. And outside the 200 the 400/600 and 800 are fatter than the pre'98 nibs. I don't know about the 1000's.

 

Mana...........""""My vintage pens (mostly Pelikans, 100Ns, 140s, 400NNs) have gold nibs that range from EEF to BBB. They are very smooth when handled properly. Meaning, very light touch and right writing angle, applying more force/pressure only on downstrokes etc. If not handled properly > problems.""


Edited by Bo Bo Olson, 23 November 2017 - 18:30.

www.nibs.com/blog/nibster-writes/nibs-germany      Info on Bock nibs

 

Due to Mauricio's improved definition of Super-flex, I try not use the term Easy Full Flex, but fail...sigh.

 

Semi-flex is an “almost” flex; not a ‘flex’ nib. It is great for regular writing with a touch of flair. It can give you some fancy; but it is not made for real fancy writing. For bit more of that get a maxi-semi-flex. Both spread tines 3X.  Those are not "Flex" nibs. 

 

Wider than Normal does not exist. Wider than Japanese does. Every company has it's very own standard + slop/tolerance. Developed from the users of it's pens and inks only; not the users or inks of other companies pens. The size you grind a nib to, is your standard only. Paper and ink matter to nib width. Thank god for 1/2 sizes or it would be boring.


#40 MHBru

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Posted 25 November 2017 - 06:58

I love reading everyone's thoughts, opinions and expertise. It is the reason I come to these pages and have learned much by doing so. Thanks... My experience with a single steel nib hardly gives me enough experience to comment but have learned enough to think the my specific nib was most likely not tested before shipping. I also learned early on that good paper makes a huge difference... Loving Clairefontaine these days. :)






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