Back To Fp. Searching For A Life-Time Pen.

[Sailor Kenshin]

You don't need no stinkin' pen stores if you're in the SF Bay Area. Just pop down to Millbrae (Peter's Cafe, a stone's throw from the BART/CalTrain station) for Pen Posse. Check the Clubs and Meetings sub-forum here.

Or call a Pen Posse yourself, if you feel adventurous or want a more convenient meeting place and time.

If you attend at Peter's, though, chances are good that a dozen friendly pen people will happily assist you in your quest for "the" pen(s). I don't know of any store that could provide the variety or even the knowledge base that Pen Posse has.

Good luck, and have fun!

Excellent idea!

 

My reasons for recommending pens like the Preppy and Plaisir for beginners go beyond how reliable they are; what if you find out you don't LIKE fountain pens? (The horror...) What if you lose it? What if someone walks off with it? It's a lot less painful being out $5-20 for an easily replaced pen than hundreds for a MB or Omas.

[Dickkooty2]

You may be over-thinking this 3 pen deal.

 

Get a Lamy 2000, a Lamy Safari, and a Pelikan 1930s 100 full tortoise as bobo suggested.

[max dog]

I don't think there is a point of diminishing returns in fountain pens because it doesn't depend upon cost. Much more influential factors I've found are where the pen is made(ie is it made for a culture of people that use fountain pens or not).

I would think that there are a far far higher percentage of Jinhao 159 that write out of the box than Montblanc 149, simply because the MB isn't intended to write well, if at all.

 

And with wine, "better" is such a vague term, but there are many parallels between wine and fountain pens - as an article in Forbes said, "much of what we taste is in our heads and not in the wine.". It's the same with fountain pen 'quality'.

 

There are many people in the MB forum, for example, who see quality where there isn't any, perhaps as internal justification for spending so much money (nobody likes to believe that they spent £500 for a piece of plastic with an IPG style nib with added warranty. People are essentially paying more for how the pen makes them feel about themselves rather than anything else). We often see this (another quote from the Forbes article on wines, above):

 

"In his second test, Brochet took an average Bordeaux red and poured it into two different bottles. One boasted a grand cru label (an indication of superior quality) and the second bore an ordinary vin du table (peasant wine if you will) label. You can guess the results. Despite the fact that they were actually being served the exact same wine, the experts gave the differently labeled bottles nearly opposite ratings. The grand cru was "agreeable, woody, complex, balanced and rounded," while the vin du table was "weak, short, light, flat and faulty". Forty experts said the wine with the fancy label was worth drinking, while only 12 said the cheap wine was.

Well in all honesty, anything beyond a reliable Lamy Safari or Pilot Metro is really in the realm of intangibles isnt it? Lately I enjoy my Lamy Safari, as much as a Pilot 74 and my 149. I like them all for their individual unique intangible qualities. If I lost any of them I would get another. The 149 loss would be more painful. It comes down to what you appreciate and makes you happy.

 

BTW, thanks for the wine article. I will read it in more detail when I get home. Looks interesting.

Edited September 21, 2017 by max dog

[calvin_0]

M is a falsely disrespected nib ...a prejudice I picked up on this com, in most folks go wide or narrow....and M is often standard, and is not given a solid chance. Certain inks like MB Toffee it is better than F or B for shading. That broke my prejudice.

 

well I often write on cheap office paper, so I often go with F... but I recent decide to go back to M, F is nice on office paper, but M offer a better writing experience.. for me personally at least..

[Bluey]

Well in all honesty, anything beyond a reliable Lamy Safari or Pilot Metro is really in the realm of intangibles isnt it? Lately I enjoy my Lamy Safari, as much as a Pilot 74 and my 149. I like them all for their individual unique intangible qualities. If I lost any of them I would get another. The 149 loss would be more painful. It comes down to what you appreciate and makes you happy.

 

BTW, thanks for the wine article. I will read it in more detail when I get home. Looks interesting.

Yes that's right! That's the crux - it's how it makes us feel about ourselves. And that's the bottom line. Each one of those pens may make you feel special in different ways, as below.

 

It could be the feel of the nib that makes us feel good because we like to write often for career or other; owning and being seen with what is perceived to be a luxurious brand in a business environment; owning a piece of history (such as with vintage pens) as this connects us with our past; or just any fountain pen because it's different to a regular biro as this means that we are doing something for the environment (some people use an FP because it partially avoids waste, as this makes us feel part of a worthy cause).

 

And no problem about the article. It's an old one though.

Edited September 21, 2017 by Bluey

[praxim]

I agree that different aspects of a pen are "interesting" to different people, and can influence strongly how one feels about them; de gustibus non est disputandum and all that. However, I would like to pull a rein on the Brochet experiment on wine tasting and possible extrapolation therefrom to quality of pens. The amazing news delivered by Brochet is that such experiments which are not double-blind are subject to systematic bias. I think that somewhere, somebody knew that already.

Other studies will show that simply changing the temperature of a wine a little will change assessments of it, something less obvious to the taster and probably not actively considered at the time.

 

It is worth noting that around the same time as the above study quoted by Forbes, Brochet (and Dubordieu) published "Wine Descriptive Language Supports Cognitive Specificity of Chemical Senses" while in 2008 Gawel and Godden showed that tasters could rate wines effectively (reds better than whites) especially where the scores of three tasters were combined. Other studies support the notions that taste is trainable (within about eight trials, as I recall) and that trained tasters are demonstrably better at discrimination between flavours, somewhat better at identifying them, and not at all better at detecting them.

 

That is, showing that something is either difficult to measure, especially for the untrained, or subject to cognitive or experimental bias, does not entail that the differences can not be identified and appreciated by humans, albeit with different preferences. It is valid to talk about inflection points for personal payoffs for pens (quality vs price) and that these points will be different for different people, and this for reasons related to different qualitative aspects and to factors others might consider extraneous.

[Bluey]

I agree that different aspects of a pen are "interesting" to different people, and can influence strongly how one feels about them; de gustibus non est disputandum and all that. However, I would like to pull a rein on the Brochet experiment on wine tasting and possible extrapolation therefrom to quality of pens. The amazing news delivered by Brochet is that such experiments which are not double-blind are subject to systematic bias. I think that somewhere, somebody knew that already.

Other studies will show that simply changing the temperature of a wine a little will change assessments of it, something less obvious to the taster and probably not actively considered at the time.

 

It is worth noting that around the same time as the above study quoted by Forbes, Brochet (and Dubordieu) published "Wine Descriptive Language Supports Cognitive Specificity of Chemical Senses" while in 2008 Gawel and Godden showed that tasters could rate wines effectively (reds better than whites) especially where the scores of three tasters were combined. Other studies support the notions that taste is trainable (within about eight trials, as I recall) and that trained tasters are demonstrably better at discrimination between flavours, somewhat better at identifying them, and not at all better at detecting them.

 

That is, showing that something is either difficult to measure, especially for the untrained, or subject to cognitive or experimental bias, does not entail that the differences can not be identified and appreciated by humans, albeit with different preferences. It is valid to talk about inflection points for personal payoffs for pens (quality vs price) and that these points will be different for different people, and this for reasons related to different qualitative aspects and to factors others might consider extraneous.

I had to scrape away a lot of gobbledegook from that, but the Brochet study is certainly not the only one to arrive at the same conclusion. For example, Plassman et el(2008)

http://www.pnas.org/content/105/3/1050.abstract

 

Abstract

Despite the importance and pervasiveness of marketing, almost nothing is known about the neural mechanisms through which it affects decisions made by individuals. We propose that marketing actions, such as changes in the price of a product, can affect neural representations of experienced pleasantness. We tested this hypothesis by scanning human subjects using functional MRI while they tasted wines that, contrary to reality, they believed to be different and sold at different prices. Our results show that increasing the price of a wine increases subjective reports of flavor pleasantness as well as blood-oxygen-level-dependent activity in medial orbitofrontal cortex, an area that is widely thought to encode for experienced pleasantness during experiential tasks. The paper provides evidence for the ability of marketing actions to modulate neural correlates of experienced pleasantness and for the mechanisms through which the effect operates.

 

Or

 

Wiseman(2011)

http://www.herts.ac.uk/about-us/news/2011/april/research-reveals-that-expensive-and-inexpensive-wines-taste-the-same

Quote from study:

"The test was conducted 'double-blind', with neither the tasters nor experimenters knowing the cost of the wine. By chance the volunteers would have correctly classified their wine as expensive or inexpensive 50% of the time. Volunteers' actual accuracy was exactly at chance, demonstrating that they could not distinguish between the two types of wine by taste alone.

 

"These are remarkable results," commented Wiseman. "People were unable to tell expensive from inexpensive wines, and so in these times of financial hardship the message is clear - the inexpensive wines we tested taste the same as their expensive counterparts"."

 

Or

 

 

Webber et al(2015)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/shopping-and-consumer-news/11574362/People-rate-wine-better-if-they-are-told-it-is-expensive.html

 

Quote:

"Consumers were found to rate cheap wine more highly if they thought it had a higher price tag.

 

Bernd Webber, of the University of Bonn in Germany, co-author of the report, said: “Studies have shown that people enjoy identical products such as wine or chocolate more if they have a higher price tag.

“However, almost no research has examined the neural and psychological processes required for such marketing placebo effects to occur.”

------

The volume of grey matter in those areas of the brain - the striatum, the posterior insula, and the dorsal medial prefrontal cortex – was found to moderate the actual taste according to the effects of expectancy."

 

 

 

So, my my dear down under fellow, would you like any more wine studies? I think my point has been proven.

Edited September 21, 2017 by Bluey

[YordleLife]

Before I dig myself too deep into this, I think you guys and girls are really crazy about FP. Which is a good thing to a certain extent. You need a hobby or two at the end of the day. I enjoy living in a Minimalist lifestyle and so I'm already being genuine allowing myself have three fountain pens. I get by around $500/month (food/rent & everything included) in San Francisco, arguably one of the most expensive cities to live in, and I'm content with what I have.

 

That said, I have narrow down to 3 choices for my work/school pen, please feel free to comment:

 

1) Lamy 2k. (~$130)

 

Meh, the design looks alright. I would definitely pick this one if I have no other choices.

 

2) Parker Premier Monochrome Black (~$475 after 25% off)

 

To be honest, this would be the most expensive pen I ever consider to purchase. Being a minimalist certainly didn't help...

But! The appearance and the design of this pen really speaks to me. I didn't know a pen can "speaks" to you. I learned this from the FP community and on Youtube. HA!

 

I liked its understated look; I liked its stealth appearance; I liked its full carbon black body. Personally I don't like gold color things (rose gold included) if I take these items outside. I'm more like a under-promise and over-deliver person. I just don't want any attention or at least minimize it.

 

This pen uses the cartridge/converter system. I read about the downside of using a converter is the ink-flow? Piston/Vac offers better ink-flow than converter but more expensive to repair? What else am I missing here?

 

I wish I can post a screen-shot of the pen here...oh well, maybe I'm new to this forum? Not sure if it's okay to post link (http://www.parkerpen.com/en-US/shop-online/premier-monochrome-black-fountain-pen-with-pvd-trim-fine-nib-1931431--1)

 

3) Pelikan M205 Aquamarine (~$150)

 

I liked its transparent look and piston filling system. That's it. But some of you says the real sweet spot game starts at $200~250 range...

 

It's fine to miss uniqueness and experience different pens provide. As long as I get to experience what a top-notch fountain pen feels and brings to my joy of writing, I'm satisfied. Yes, I may be missing out on 10%, 20% or even 30% for not owning a variety of pens.

 

Anyhow, thanks for all the advice and comments! I'm going to venture out this weekend to tryout these pens. For the second in-house pen, it will take at least another 3~5 years before I decide which one to get and by then, hopefully, I get a better idea about my likes and dislikes about FP. Also, I appreciate your info about the DC pen show and the local FP club!

 

One or two lifetime pens CAN be done. Our forefathers did it. For the longest time, you bought A pen, and that was it unless it was damaged or lost. My estate sale finds are always one or two pens and A bottle of ink, maybe two.

I think you are the only person who make the most sense. They are converting us to get into this pen collection habit, which to me cost an arm and a leg!

Edited September 21, 2017 by YordleLife

[max dog]

Between the 3, I would go Lamy 2000. There's reasons why this pen has been around since the 60's, and still very popular. The out of the box nib reliability from what I hear is the highest with the Lamy 2000 these days. Just my opinion. And that 14K hooded nib writes awesome.

Edited September 21, 2017 by max dog

[calvin_0]

2) Parker Premier Monochrome Black (~$475 after 25% off)

 

To be honest, this would be the most expensive pen I ever consider to purchase. Being a minimalist certainly didn't help...

But! The appearance and the design of this pen really speaks to me. I didn't know a pen can "speaks" to you. I learned this from the FP community and on Youtube. HA!

 

I liked its understated look; I liked its stealth appearance; I liked its full carbon black body. Personally I don't like gold color things (rose gold included) if I take these items outside. I'm more like a under-promise and over-deliver person. I just don't want any attention or at least minimize it.

 

try this version...

 

https://www.amazon.com/Parker-Premier-Monochrome-Fountain-S0924770/dp/B0055Y1CUS

 

 

 

yeah, this is a really expensive pen, but you dont have to get it right now.. make that pen your goal and save up whenever you can.. even brian goulet of gouletpens.com save up money overtime to get his holy grail pen (Visconti Homo Sapiens).

[praxim]

Bluey, you have missed the point instantly, in your opening sentence, even disregarding your attempt to poison the well. Your studies 1 and 3 confirm the bleedin' obvious which I have already cited, and of which you apparently have not understood the import (or lack). Your study 2 used 400 members of the public (as mentioned in your reference but omitted by you), not trained tasters, a point I covered in studies to which I referred. Nothing I said is either falsified or even mildly rebutted by your post.

 

Please pursue this by PM if you need clarification. I will happily present here any error on my part that you are able to demonstrate therein. If I ignore further posts here, it will mean I consider nothing relevant to have been said in them, not already answered.

 

Bye.

[ethernautrix]

The Pelikan M205 has the benefit of easily changing nibs if you end up wanting different nib options.

[Bo Bo Olson]

There was a young German Vineyard owner who said for normal folks, a white wine should be drunk with in seven years and at 7 decrees C/ 45 F.

A red wine within 12 years and 12 C/ 53 F instead of 16C/60F. or 18 C/65F...in it could warm in the glass. Cool was nicer than warm....more enjoyable.

 

Most folks didn't have the experience to taste all the differences of a more aged, expensive and more complex wine.

(And I use to smoke, so had less 'taste' ...not that I eve noticed an improvement the other years I've quit.)

That made sense to me. On the whole I probably get a better E20 bottle of wine than someone in the States gets in a $20 bottle of wine......and am more willing to get a nice cheap local wine for E 5-7. Normally wine is my wife's thing, and she's only into reds.

 

But I got lucky....Aldi offers Parker graded red wines for E7.00.....89-90 points are very good or even up to very, very good 92 Parker points. Most are Spanish, but delightful. At Aldi I've bought E20 bottles non-Parker that go for E65 online. Those I do spend the time first looking up the vintage and vineyard.....in that's 3-4 bottles of ink.

 

Aldi and Lidl are going big in the States, so one should check out their wines, better than the price.

 

Room temperature was from the days of a deep cellar, a fast butler, three foot wide walls and 14 feet high ceilings.

German's are cheap...too cheap to cool their red wines....gasthaus's have the red wine at room temperature.....so one should drink red wine in the winter only. And early before the single coal they burn warms up the room.

Edited September 21, 2017 by Bo Bo Olson

[Mister5]

 

This pen uses the cartridge/converter system. I read about the downside of using a converter is the ink-flow? Piston/Vac offers better ink-flow than converter but more expensive to repair? What else am I missing here?

 

 

A piston fill pen also typically offers a significantly larger ink capacity than a converter. A Vacuum filler usually offers a massive ink capacity even compared to the piston fill.

 

My experience with cartridge/converters is the ink flow tends not to be so good so I am biased towards piston fill pens.

 

However, lets say you get a cartridge-converter. If the converter fails you can just ditch the converter and get a new one. If you got a piston fill and it fails, you're looking at a costly repair. And with a cartridge-converter, you can use cartridges, which can be convenient; you can just swap out the ink cartridge on the fly. Maintenance of a cartridge-converter is usually easy. Just flush the nib/feed with cool to tepid water with a bulb syringe to push out the old ink.

 

One thing with the Pelikan M200 is that if, over time you find you would like a finer or broader nib, or if it falls to the floor and you totally ruin the nib, you can easily swap out the Pelikan's nib unit (it just screws out) for a new one.

Edited September 21, 2017 by Mister5

[Bluey]

Anyhow, thanks for all the advice and comments! I'm going to venture out this weekend to tryout these pens. For the second in-house pen, it will take at least another 3~5 years before I decide which one to get and by then, hopefully, I get a better idea about my likes and dislikes about FP. Also, I appreciate your info about the DC pen show and the local FP club!

 

 

 

Why not just get a load of cheap pens to see what you like?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Bluey, you have missed the point instantly, in your opening sentence, even disregarding your attempt to poison the well. Your studies 1 and 3 confirm the bleedin' obvious which I have already cited, and of which you apparently have not understood the import (or lack). Your study 2 used 400 members of the public (as mentioned in your reference but omitted by you), not trained tasters, a point I covered in studies to which I referred. Nothing I said is either falsified or even mildly rebutted by your post.

 

Please pursue this by PM if you need clarification. I will happily present here any error on my part that you are able to demonstrate therein. If I ignore further posts here, it will mean I consider nothing relevant to have been said in them, not already answered.

 

Bye.

Who do you think buys the wine(and fountain pens)? It's not trained testers. It's not about trained testers being fooled but about people in general not being able to tell the difference between cheap and expensive, as well as people seeing more expensive things as being better. Woosh.

If you want to believe that you haven't been rebutted, then fine.

Edited September 21, 2017 by Bluey

[PAKMAN]

My choice would be the Lamy 2000.

[Bo Bo Olson]

I'm into the 200....in you can buy screw in nibs for it cheap. $30 perhaps....and they just twist out. So you can have a narrow, medium and wide nib for well under $200.

One might need a cheaper non-transparent 200 to stay under $200 but there are many pretty ones.

I have an transparent Amethyst, that cost me 1/3 more than a regular 200.

The 200 is a very well balanced, light and nimble pen with a very, very good nib.....that I've raved about before.

[YordleLife]

So I read Pelikan's nib can be a hit or miss..The quality control at Pelikan sounds like a joke when I see pictures showing EF nib write as wide as M nibs compared to some Japanese brands.

 

My question is then what are some reputable online stores where I can get after-sale service such as nib tuning /adjustment? How are after-sale service compared between Western brands and brands from Asia? What about shipping cost for nib adjustment?

 

Sorry for so many questions as I'm still learning and getting back into this game. Aiming to purchase my pen around Thanksgiving this year.

Edited September 22, 2017 by YordleLife

[Erik Dalton]

If you like the look if the Pelikan M200, then grab one with less flashy chrome trim and stainless steel unplated nib. I use a Taupe M-200 with stainless steel nib when I go out and about. Doesn't bring a lot of stares, but writes first time, every time, while holding a ton of ink.

If you buy two, you'll have a spare that you could pass on to your wife.

There are some good sales on them out there.

For your "good" pen you could just stay with Pelikan. There's lots to choose from.

Then there is always the TWISBI 580.

Good luck with your quest.

[Mister5]

 

My question is then what are some reputable online stores where I can get after-sale service such as nib tuning /adjustment? How are after-sale service compared between Western brands and brands from Asia? What about shipping cost for nib adjustment?

 

Sorry for so many questions as I'm still learning and getting back into this game. Aiming to purchase my pen around Thanksgiving this year.

Try indy-pen-dance or nibs.com. Edited September 22, 2017 by Mister5