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How Are Souveran Pens Made From The "inside"?


TassoBarbasso

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Hi all!

 

My wife gave me an M600 for our wedding anniversary. It's a gorgeous pen, but I have a question: does the green-striped celluloid cilinder work also as the ink container? Or is there an inner plastic body, and the celluloid is just a decorative sleeve?

 

In simpler words: is the celluloid in DIRECT contact with the ink?

 

Somewhere I've read that most Souveran pens with celluloid body do not actually put the celluloid in direct contact with the ink, using instead an inner transparent body. Which would be smart, since many inks can corrode celluloid. However, I haven't been able to find conclusive confirmation of this.

 

The reason I'm asking is that my favourite inks are alkalinic, and therefore celluloid-corrosive, and I want to know if it's possible to put them in a Pelikan.

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Pelikan uses one plastic inner barrel for all of the pens, and what is called the "binde" i.e. the striped or other colored plastic, on the outside.. The section is glued onto a nose that extends out the front of the barrel. The piston mechanism on 600 pens and below is a snap fit into the barrel. The 800 pens have a threaded bushing that goes into the back end. The ID of ALL pens, 100 through 800 is the same, and they use the same size piston seal. The barrel plastic is an acrylic (at least it responds to the same solvents as acrylic), but Pelikan would recommend using Pelikan ink rather than some of the modern inks made today. Having repaired many of them, I tend to agree.

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Hi all!

 

My wife gave me an M600 for our wedding anniversary.

 

 

Congrats on your anniversary and your pen. Just tonight at dinner I was telling my wife about how much I liked the M600 I saw today at a pen shop. Our 5th anny is coming up. I'm hoping she got the hint but I'm not sure she could remember M600, and I didn't happen to say anything about nib size. What nib size did you get?

Ink 'em if you got 'em!

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Pelikan uses one plastic inner barrel for all of the pens, and what is called the "binde" i.e. the striped or other colored plastic, on the outside.. The section is glued onto a nose that extends out the front of the barrel. The piston mechanism on 600 pens and below is a snap fit into the barrel. The 800 pens have a threaded bushing that goes into the back end. The ID of ALL pens, 100 through 800 is the same, and they use the same size piston seal. The barrel plastic is an acrylic (at least it responds to the same solvents as acrylic), but Pelikan would recommend using Pelikan ink rather than some of the modern inks made today. Having repaired many of them, I tend to agree.

Thanks!! :) So you can confirm that the celluloid is not directly in contact with ink?

 

What kind of ink corrosion have you noticed over time? If the inner barrell is acrylic, I'm surprised there is corrosion: I've always thought acrylic was corrosion-free.

 

My main issue is that I use either Noodler (not Baystate Blue though) or Pilot inks. Would they damage the pen?

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Congrats on your anniversary and your pen. Just tonight at dinner I was telling my wife about how much I liked the M600 I saw today at a pen shop. Our 5th anny is coming up. I'm hoping she got the hint but I'm not sure she could remember M600, and I didn't happen to say anything about nib size. What nib size did you get?

It was our fifth anniversary too! :) congrats to you and your wife :) I got a B nib: juicy and pleasantly smooth!

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In I'd not want Ron to get sued.....many repair men don't like Noodlers inks.

Noodler's fans insist, Noodler reformulated his trouble inks...............still is reformulation is a rumor?

 

They are supersaturated inks that need high maintenance. I don't know if you have to clean the pen before every refill, but you do have to clean it more often than older classic inks.

 

(If you were to use just one classic ink.....like back in the day of Prop Job passenger planes.....the advice was clean the pen every three months.)

 

I don't know about anything about some of the real modern last 3-4 years come on the market inks, outside they are well liked. I've not read in detail to find out if they are high or low maintenance inks.

 

 

I expect Herbin, Pelikan, Lamy, MB, Aurora, Waterman, Parker, Sheaffer, Viscounti to be fine. I expect DA inks to be OK too. I know nothing of Japaneses inks but have not heard horror stories.

It use to be said, Pelikan if you wanted a dry ink, Waterman if you wanted a wet ink.

Noodler's users consider Waterman a dry ink. If so, I can understand why many need a Japanese EF (Western XXF) nib. :lol:

 

 

Some Diamine inks cause problems.....I don't know if it is permanent problems. Ancient Copper gunks up the works from my reading.

Edited by Bo Bo Olson

In reference to P. T. Barnum; to advise for free is foolish, ........busybodies are ill liked by both factions.

 

 

The cheapest lessons are from those who learned expensive lessons. Ignorance is best for learning expensive lessons.

 

 

 

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A while ago there was a thread about red inks causing problems in sac pens. Do they cause problems with Pelikan pens?

"Don't hurry, don't worry. It's better to be late at the Golden Gate than to arrive in Hell on time."
--Sign in a bar and grill, Ormond Beach, Florida, 1960.

 

 

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In I'd not want Ron to get sued.....many repair men don't like Noodlers inks.

Noodler's fans insist, Noodler reformulated his trouble inks...............still is reformulation is a rumor?

 

They are supersaturated inks that need high maintenance. I don't know if you have to clean the pen before every refill, but you do have to clean it more often than older classic inks.

 

(If you were to use just one classic ink.....like back in the day of Prop Job passenger planes.....the advice was clean the pen every three months.).

I refrain from using any of the more troublesome Noodler's inks, such as BSB. I only use Prime of the Commons and Bad Blue Heron (the latter, only in super-air-tight pens where there is no evaporation). My favourite ink is Pilot Blue-Black, which I use a lot more than any other ink (its colour reminds me of the shade of my daughter's eyes :) ), and as most Japanese inks, it's much more alkalinic and therefore prone to corrode celluloid. I thoroughly clean my pens after every two-three fills with Noodler's, as I'm well aware of the issue with clogging, and every four-five fills with Pilot.

 

But the key concern here is not about clogging, but about corrosion of the barrell :) If Ron can indeed guarantee that the celluloid part on an M600 won't be in touch with the ink, then we're good: I'll feel safe using my beloved Pilot ink :)

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Here is a video showing the manufacture of Pelikan pens, including the nibs and bindes. This should help allay your fears as to what the ink touches. Enjoy your inks!

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWhEytzwVmA

 

(German language)

Edited by BillH

"Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working." -Pablo Picasso


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The OP keeps stating that the bindes, striped or otherwise, are celluloid. Is that the case?

Rationalizing pen and ink purchases since 1967.

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The OP keeps stating that the bindes, striped or otherwise, are celluloid. Is that the case?

 

 

Piston filler including a 24 carat gold plating and an elaborately striped body made of celluloid acetate.

Pelikan about green and black.

You do not have a right to post. You do not have a right to a lawyer. Do you understands these rights you do not have?

 

Kaweco Supra (titanium B), Al-Sport (steel BB).

Parker: Sonnet (dimonite); Frontier GT; 51 (gray); Vacumatic (amber).

Pelikan: m600 (BB); Rotring ArtPen (1,9mm); Rotring Rive; Cult Pens Mini (the original silver version), Waterman Carene (ultramarine F)

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The OP keeps stating that the bindes, striped or otherwise, are celluloid. Is that the case?

Yes. This has been confirmed by many sources, including Pelikan itsef.

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Here is a video showing the manufacture of Pelikan pens, including the nibs and bindes. This should help allay your fears as to what the ink touches. Enjoy your inks!

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWhEytzwVmA

 

(German language)

Yes I've seen this. Unfortunately you can't cleary see if the plastic component they add to the celluloid cilinder goes all the way until the end into the cilinder, or if it's only a short "nipple" on which the section is then glued.

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The OP keeps stating that the bindes, striped or otherwise, are celluloid. Is that the case?

 

No, Pelikan uses cellulose acetate, rather than Celluloid (cellulose nitrate) for their bindes.

fpn_1375035941__postcard_swap.png * * * "Don't neglect to write me several times from different places when you may."
-- John Purdue (1863)

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Yes I've seen this. Unfortunately you can't cleary see if the plastic component they add to the celluloid cilinder goes all the way until the end into the cilinder, or if it's only a short "nipple" on which the section is then glued.

Yes the liner does extend the length of the body. The binde is slid over it in a press fit. Some of the pen builders here have photos of fitting the custom bindes they make.

To be safe, I would stick with the Aurora, Pelikan, Montblanc, Waterman, De Atramentis, Visconti etc. "safe" inks. That said, I have no reservations putting Non-red Iroshuku inks in my Pelikans, and enjoy them a great deal.

I love Sailor inks, but reserve c/c pens for these inks exclusively. Pilot Blue Black also goes into c/c pens since it can stain.

I would listen to everything that Ron Z says.

We all have different feelings on this stuff, Ive offered you what I've learned over time. Hope it helps clarify things.

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Of the Noodlers inks I have, and the samples I've put into my M101N I've only had one issue so far. #41 brown made it very difficult to operate the piston and hard for a qtip to clean out the inside. It seemed to react to the grease of the seal, causing it to no longer lubricate. I haven't tried every ink though.

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Of the Noodlers inks I have, and the samples I've put into my M101N I've only had one issue so far. #41 brown made it very difficult to operate the piston and hard for a qtip to clean out the inside. It seemed to react to the grease of the seal, causing it to no longer lubricate. I haven't tried every ink though.

 

Noodler's #41 brown was a color I loved until I used it in some pens where it would do nib creep and make a mess. This is also one of the Noodler's really permanent inks. I threw my bottle away.

"Don't hurry, don't worry. It's better to be late at the Golden Gate than to arrive in Hell on time."
--Sign in a bar and grill, Ormond Beach, Florida, 1960.

 

 

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Yes the liner does extend the length of the body. The binde is slid over it in a press fit. Some of the pen builders here have photos of fitting the custom bindes they make.

To be safe, I would stick with the Aurora, Pelikan, Montblanc, Waterman, De Atramentis, Visconti etc. "safe" inks. That said, I have no reservations putting Non-red Iroshuku inks in my Pelikans, and enjoy them a great deal.

I love Sailor inks, but reserve c/c pens for these inks exclusively. Pilot Blue Black also goes into c/c pens since it can stain.

I would listen to everything that Ron Z says.

We all have different feelings on this stuff, Ive offered you what I've learned over time. Hope it helps clarify things.

 

I notice you wrote that you would use "Non-red iroshuku" inks. I take that to mean that it's possible red will stain Pelikans. I think it's not worth the chance. About the Sailor inks, you would use them in C/C pens. Thanks for these cautions. I will be flushing a few pens now.

 

I am a bit uncertain about Pelikan 4001 violet. I think I will discontinue use of it anyway.

"Don't hurry, don't worry. It's better to be late at the Golden Gate than to arrive in Hell on time."
--Sign in a bar and grill, Ormond Beach, Florida, 1960.

 

 

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Red and purple inks are known to stain ink windows.

So I've never inked a piston pen with red. Purple I clean the pen after every time it gets empty.

I do like purple inks, and so far have had no problems. I do treat purple like a high maintenance ink.

 

I don't know how a red ink would stain a black rubber sac, nor that it would stay that way. I'd never heard that mentioned. It could be the silicon sacs stain or those in the Old Parker 51's..

 

So I guess the best advice to a black rubber sac pen is to use black or blue first .... clean and then use red.

And use red cartridges in Cartridge pens.

In reference to P. T. Barnum; to advise for free is foolish, ........busybodies are ill liked by both factions.

 

 

The cheapest lessons are from those who learned expensive lessons. Ignorance is best for learning expensive lessons.

 

 

 

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Red and purple inks are known to stain ink windows.

So I've never inked a piston pen with red. Purple I clean the pen after every time it gets empty.

I do like purple inks, and so far have had no problems. I do treat purple like a high maintenance ink.

 

I don't know how a red ink would stain a black rubber sac, nor that it would stay that way. I'd never heard that mentioned. It could be the silicon sacs stain or those in the Old Parker 51's..

 

So I guess the best advice to a black rubber sac pen is to use black or blue first .... clean and then use red.

And use red cartridges in Cartridge pens.

 

Red ink is supposed, by good authority of trustworthy repair people, to cause sacs to detioriate. I trust their word, and have quit using the red and purple/violet in sac pens. With piston fillers also ruled out (who wants to replace piston seals?), that leaves C/C pens. You can throw away the cartridge or converter and get another in most cases, except for some where the cartridges and converters are no longer made. If I want to use purple, and if I want to actually use a good pen, I can use one of my MB 144s, the 80s models.

"Don't hurry, don't worry. It's better to be late at the Golden Gate than to arrive in Hell on time."
--Sign in a bar and grill, Ormond Beach, Florida, 1960.

 

 

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