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Pelikan M400. Baby's Bottom?


friedrichwild

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I got a new pelikan m400 with a fine nib. the nib is very smooth and really a joy to write with. But i think that it is too smooth and has a MINOR babys bottom issue. I say minor because it only hard starts if i apply light pressure on the paper and only at the first word. After that it writes well until i stop for some seconds and start to write again. When i write with normal pressure it writes ok (almost every time). i flushed the pen, i changed inks and all the same.

All my pilots and platinums write straight away no matter how much pressure i put on the paper.

Do you think that i should return the pen for nib exchange or this is how all pelikan nibs write because they are too smooth? thanks.

 

Here is a poor image of the tines of the nib.

 

IMG_20170826_171955_HDR.jpg

Edited by friedrichwild
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It's common with Pelikans, and it's common with all German nibs on account of excessive smoothing.

 

It's just how it is. If you swap it, there's a good chance the replacement will be exactly the same.

 

I don't have a Pelikan anymore because since sold but it wrote similarly to below, so does it write like this (first one light pressure, 2nd heavier pressure):

http://i.imgur.com/4pyoeEz.jpg

 

 

If so, it has babys bottom.

Edited by Bluey
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it never writes so pale as the first "My lamy" you have in the picture. it writes like the second one.

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I was going by what you said here:

"I say minor because it only hard starts if i apply light pressure on the paper and only at the first word.". Mine wrote uniformly like that, not just on the first word. They seem very dependent on the amount of pressure applied on the paper, and this is what usually characterises babys bottom. It will also be susceptible to hand oils on the lower half of the page.

 

 

After that it writes well until i stop for some seconds and start to write again.

 

It could be that the ink channels need widening, but I wouldn't try this just yet. I'm not sure. Could try yet another ink as some inks give better perfomance in Pelikans than others. Perhaps a pelikan ink.

Edited by Bluey
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Common issue with most German-made nibs manufactured since the 1990s, especially Lamy, Pelikan or Bock (all the pre-1990s German nibs I tried were ok, though. Not sure what changed in the 1990s).

 

You need to be very careful especially if you get a B or stub nib from these manifacturers. The same goes for most Italian manufacturers: with the welcome exception of Aurora, of course, they almost all use German-made (Bock) nibs, and are baby bottom-infested.

 

When it comes to other German nib manufacturers, JoWo nibs also have this problem, though my experience is limited to 2 samples. I have too little experience with Montblanc post-1990s to comment on that, but the one nib I tried was, indeed, baby-bottom-ish, too.

 

You can fix it with some grinding on micromesh, but you must be VERY, very careful with that. It's a difficult procedure.

 

Japanese pens (as well as Auroras) are usually made having in mind that the pen has to be used, rather than displayed. For this reason their nibs are generally far better. I've never had baby bottom or skipping or ink starvation on any Japanese or Aurora pens.

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It's common with Pelikans, and it's common with all German nibs on account of excessive smoothing.

 

It's just how it is. If you swap it, there's a good chance the replacement will be exactly the same.

 

I don't have a Pelikan anymore because since sold but it wrote similarly to below, so does it write like this (first one light pressure, 2nd heavier pressure

thanks for the anwers! To me this is unacceptable for such expensive writing instruments. Ok we all love smoothness. But to sucrifice the flawless performance of the nib in order to achive such high levels of smoothness is ridiculous.

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I have often read this matter of baby bottom being rife in Pelikans, but in about a dozen Pelikans, M300, M400, M60x, M200, M80x and M1000 I haven't had this problem. These have been among the best pens I have had. Especially no starting or skipping issues. Maybe it is because they seem to be wet pens that I haven't had problems with them.

"Don't hurry, don't worry. It's better to be late at the Golden Gate than to arrive in Hell on time."
--Sign in a bar and grill, Ormond Beach, Florida, 1960.

 

 

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thanks for the anwers! To me this is unacceptable for such expensive writing instruments. Ok we all love smoothness. But to sucrifice the flawless performance of the nib in order to achive such high levels of smoothness is ridiculous.

Of course, and I agree. I've ranted and raved about this many times on the forum (I really should put it in my sig as a cut and paste job), but it's because in the East, fountain pens are still used as an every day writer, and this is why it's far more important for them to write well.

 

In the West they are more ornamental pieces because most of the time they are going to be bought as gifts and then given to new graduates or someone leaving a company who will cherish it in their sock drawer, never to be written with. When buying from a shop people are going to experience the luscious smoothness and then the next minute several hundred ££££ have gone missing from their wallet!

This is why smooooooovness is paramount because it's the first and only experience in which to persuade you to part with your dosh. Smoothness, though, it's rarely a sign of quality but quite often functions as lipstick on a pig.

It doesn't matter afterwards because they have your money and can just keep on churning out replacement nibs to you in the rare case that you will happen to use it. The fact that it's not ever going to be written with day to day means that the poor buyer won't ever know how many issues it will have (unless you are a member of that increasingly rare breed of folk called fountain pen user) further down the road.

Edited by Bluey
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Of course, and I agree. I've ranted and raved about this many times on the forum (I really should put it in my sig as a cut and paste job), but it's because in the East, fountain pens are still used as an every day writer, and this is why it's far more important for them to write well.

 

In the West they are more ornamental pieces because most of the time they are going to be bought as gifts and then given to new graduates or someone leaving a company who will cherish it in their sock drawer, never to be written with. When buying from a shop people are going to experience the luscious smoothness and then the next minute several hundred ££££ have gone missing from their wallet!

This is why smooooooovness is paramount because it's the first and only experience in which to persuade you to part with your dosh. Smoothness, though, it's rarely a sign of quality but quite often functions as lipstick on a pig.

It doesn't matter afterwards because they have your money and can just keep on churning out replacement nibs to you in the rare case that you will happen to use it. The fact that it's not ever going to be written with day to day means that the poor buyer won't ever know how many issues it will have (unless you are a member of that increasingly rare breed of folk called fountain pen user) further down the road.

 

So, you feel the nibs should not be smooth? Smooth is nice, but I don't care if a nib is toothy, as long as it writes reliably. I can take a nib as it comes, and sometimes I smooth it myself and don't always use smoothing material any of the people here would use. My Pelikans seem to be smooth and to also write reliably. Ironically, the Oriental pens I have had usually presented me with the issues of hard starts and drying up with unnecessary celerity. The nibs made for the Cross Solo were the best exception that worked flawlessly.

"Don't hurry, don't worry. It's better to be late at the Golden Gate than to arrive in Hell on time."
--Sign in a bar and grill, Ormond Beach, Florida, 1960.

 

 

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So, you feel the nibs should not be smooth? Smooth is nice, but I don't care if a nib is toothy, as long as it writes reliably. I can take a nib as it comes, and sometimes I smooth it myself and don't always use smoothing material any of the people here would use. My Pelikans seem to be smooth and to also write reliably. Ironically, the Oriental pens I have had usually presented me with the issues of hard starts and drying up with unnecessary celerity. The nibs made for the Cross Solo were the best exception that worked flawlessly.

No, I don't think nibs should be smooth. Not now anyway. As a fountain pen newbie, yes. Yes, I did. And that's why many are.

 

I'm not sure why you have experienced hard starts with your oriental pens when they're not in front of me for me to check. You have previously mentioned that your issues have always been from C/Cs and rarely from piston fillers, and this is probably your biggest clue that it almost certainly has nothing to do with the nib.

 

Take an average Platinum, Pilot, or Sailor nib. It will have feedback, may be occasionally "scratchy", and it will be unpretentious. It won't try to persuade you that it's a writing experience made in heaven. Some have a greater smoothness factor than others, but it will rarely be glassy smooth. Ever. Not even the zoom nib, that huge quivering hunk of tipping that's so big it has it's own microclimate, is glassy smooth.

 

You can bet your life though, out of any random sample of 10,000+ nibs, far more will fare far far better and for longer and more reliably than any of the dross being churned out of the Montblanc, Pelikan, Bock or Jowo nib smoothing production line.

 

--------

 

For OP, there are some options. Try a Pelikan 4001 ink (many brands recommend using their own ink. It's a hack and it shouldn't be like that, but it's worth trying out). Try different paper. You can send the nib to Pelikan or where you bought it from. Or if you want to do some DIY, one of which may be using 12,000 microgrit to remove the babys bottom as it will have the effect of bringing lessening the gap between the tines.

Of course, always try the less drastic options first.

Edited by Bluey
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My experiences with modern Pelikan nibs:
M200 B -- in both instances the nib had to be tuned a bit. The one on the first Café Crème skipped horribly, no matter the ink, until I had the nib worked on.

M400 B and M400 EF, OTOH? Those have been a delight. Absolutely no issues with either (admittedly, though, I don't know if they were tuned before I got the pens).

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

"It's very nice, but frankly, when I signed that list for a P-51, what I had in mind was a fountain pen."

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If by the '90's one is talking post '97, when the new M400 came in with the ring at the piston and a fat and blobby semi-nail nib on that and the later 600's.I can see that.

 

I had a slight case of baby bottom on a 605's nib I had swapped out...from a good M to a BB....in sooner or later I was going to Stub or CI that nib...and wanted to have enough nib to do so..............half a decade later .... later came and I did down to 1.0. Butter Smooth stub.

 

The rest of my '90's or started in that era nibs are the thinner, less blobby nibs, of a non-ring M400, a 381, two Celebry pens one gold nib = to the steel one. Regular flex instead of the more modern semi-nail.

The Celebry was made into the early 2000's but mine are the same nibwise as the earlier 400, 381 or the 200's....The 200's have remained 'the same'. A narrower non blobby regular flex nib.

 

I don't remember reading much about the 200's nibs as baby bottom .... as I do about the ring on piston ring 400/600.

I suspect, ball point and roller balls especially out side of Germany make up the majority of Pelikan's market. So the nib of the 400/600 is semi-nail, and designed fat and blobby to be held like a ball point or roller-ball. (One couldn't expect to insult the ball point and roller ball users to actually take three minutes or have the physical coordination to learn to hold a fountain pen, like a fountain pen..... :( )

 

:P I imagine if held as designed before the big knuckle and more vertical :o ...the 'so called baby bottom' problem would be cured. :lticaptd:

In reference to P. T. Barnum; to advise for free is foolish, ........busybodies are ill liked by both factions.

 

 

The cheapest lessons are from those who learned expensive lessons. Ignorance is best for learning expensive lessons.

 

 

 

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:P I imagine if held as designed before the big knuckle and more vertical :o ...the 'so called baby bottom' problem would be cured. :lticaptd:

You are totallty right. if i use this nib as if it was a ballpoint it writes without issues. But i purchased a fountain pen. Not a ballpoint. i want to be able to write with the lighter pressure possible (as i can with all of my japanese nibs).
As i said before, i really enjoy the smoothness of the pelikan's nib. it is faaaaar more smooth than my all of my japanese pens (and smoother than all the nibs i have in general). It writes really well. But not perfect. if i want, i can make the nib write without hard starts but i need to pay a liitle more pressure to the nib and the problem is cured.
I just love the looks of this pelikan very much and i wanted to be my best writer too.
Edited by friedrichwild
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My M400 same issue. 12000 grit micromesh solves it if you have done some study, have some experience, and a little courage! All the best

My Vintage Montblanc Website--> link

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In the East, fountain pens are still used as an every day writer, and this is why it's far more important for them to write well. In the West they are more ornamental pieces because most of the time they are going to be bought as gifts and then given to new graduates or someone leaving a company who will cherish it in their sock drawer [...] This is why smooooooovness is paramount because it's the first and only experience in which to persuade you to part with your dosh. Smoothness, though, it's rarely a sign of quality but quite often functions as lipstick on a pig.

Completey agree. We should establish an International Movement for the un-Smoothening of Nibs.

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Having finally tried a gel pen a decade or so after they came out....I'd had 200 free old style ball points.....I finally started to understand the 'noobie' search for 'butter smooth.' They wanted or want that good old fashioned gel pen feeling. ;) Or even better....in nearly always there is a thread on butter smooth on the first page of fountain pens or nib section.

It is later, I read from ex-noobies, 'how do I get rid of butter smooth?' :unsure:

 

I do have a few butter smooth pens, a few with tooth.

 

I buy old cheap used pens.....vintage, and they often have 'iridium' micro-corrosion or 'iridium rust' from sitting in the dark of a drawer for a generation or three. I want to remove that drag. When I do I get 'good and smooth', a level under 'butter smooth'. It won't slide off of Clairefontaine Triumph paper, or any other slick paper.

Sigh, I am a bit lazy....to get a nib butter smooth requires a lot of work. :rolleyes:

With a brown paper bag it takes a minute to get rid of drag and arrive at good and smooth, with micro-mesh...perhaps up to 10 ....or 15 seconds.

In reference to P. T. Barnum; to advise for free is foolish, ........busybodies are ill liked by both factions.

 

 

The cheapest lessons are from those who learned expensive lessons. Ignorance is best for learning expensive lessons.

 

 

 

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I am totally flummoxed that I have not had the baby's bottom on any of the Pelikans I have had. I must have been discriminated against. Perhaps I can find a statue to pull down to express my disappointment. Better yet, send them to a nibmeister to have the feature added.

"Don't hurry, don't worry. It's better to be late at the Golden Gate than to arrive in Hell on time."
--Sign in a bar and grill, Ormond Beach, Florida, 1960.

 

 

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I am totally flummoxed that I have not had the baby's bottom on any of the Pelikans I have had. I must have been discriminated against. Perhaps I can find a statue to pull down to express my disappointment. Better yet, send them to a nibmeister to have the feature added.

 

you're not the only one.. apparently I'm an outlier too.

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I have a personal theory on the baby-bottom issue. I've never had it confirmed by a manufacturer or nibmeister, so please take it with the usual grain of salt. In the '90s, many European nib-makers realized that they were no longer selling to people who had grown up on fountain pens. They were selling to ballpoint users for whom the fountain pen was a special treat.

That meant two things. First, it meant that most new buyers would hold the pen at a much higher angle than was common in the old days. So the nib had to be rounded at the end to provide a smooth surface to the paper even when almost vertical. A nearly flat sweet spot, as you often find on vintage nibs, was out of the question.

Second, it meant that unless they were paying close attention, users would write with "normal" pressure: the pressure they would use on a disposable ballpoint. That would slightly splay and slightly rotate the tines on even a fairly rigid nib. And the edges of the slit would dig into the paper. The manufacturers started rounding over the inner edges of the slit so that when the tines rotated out, there would be no sharp right-angle tine edge to dig into the paper.

That solves a potential scratching problem for "normal" pressure writers. Press down as much as you like and the nib always starts and always feels perfectly smooth. But it is baby bottom. So if you write with your pen at a traditional, rather lower angle, on hard-finished paper that can't reach up into the slit to start the capillary action, and you use light or no pressure, you get the characteristic hard starting and skipping. It's not that the nib is defective, it is that the nib was ground for a different kind of customer.

ron

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Ron, sounds good to me.......very clearly stated. :thumbup:

Fat double Kugal semi-nail tip for ball point barbarians.

 

The best cure for baby bottom is a 200's nib. :happyberet: Still made for fountain pen users.

In reference to P. T. Barnum; to advise for free is foolish, ........busybodies are ill liked by both factions.

 

 

The cheapest lessons are from those who learned expensive lessons. Ignorance is best for learning expensive lessons.

 

 

 

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