Returning New Pens

[BT_Summers]

18 months ago I sold a new Parker 51 to a friend of a friend. It was in its original box, still with chalk marks and had never been inked. It was an ordinary dark red 51. I asked for double the going rate for a 51 and he was happy to pay. Two weeks later he posted the pen back to me, said he had tried it and couldnt see why people liked 51s, he said it wasnt suitable for his purpose and cancelled the paypal payment. The pen looked like it had been hard used, now had microscratches and the chalk marks have gone.

 

He could even have switched the pen.

 

This left a bitter taste in my mouth.

 

Someone else has asked if I would like to sell one of my 149s, he wanted one that hadnt been used and we agreed a price, I was just handing over the box when he said - if I dont like it can I bring it back. when I said no he was genuinely surprised. I explained that a new 149 (list price is around £650) would lose perhaps 33% of its price once used. I suggested that if he bought a new car, and returned it 2 weeks later because he didnt like it he would not get his money back. he countered that by saying the last car he bought the garage let him have a test drive for 48 hours.

 

He called me unreasonable, to which I readily agreed, and went on his way.

 

I am very quick to complain to others if products fail to perform their intended function, but if I dont like them well i think I would take that on the chin. There is a UK retail chain that used to produce good quality clothes that were proudly made in England, they used to allow returns quite readily and had a strong customer following. Not so much now, there are conditions to goods being returned including if you have removed any part of the labelling, even if the goods are not fit for purpose - again bitter experience here.

 

There may be a bit of double standards here, I expect to be able to return goods,but I dont want to offer full refunds on new pens other than for a defect.

 

I am tempted to ask if I am being unreasonable but know that there may be a high percentage of you will say yes of course you are.

[jar]

Growing up my basic understanding was that it was fine to complain if a product or service was defective but not if you simply did not like it. If you buy a product and it is not suitable for your purposes or desires yet functions as it was designed to function I see no reason anyone should expect to be able to return it.

 

"I don't like it" is never justification for a refund.

[BT_Summers]

Well, I agree. The difficulty arises when the buyer cancels payment on the basis that the pen is not fit for its intended purposes and cites the idea that the pen is too big or too slim.

 

The pen has been used and therefore is worth less than its original price.

[Chrissy]

Growing up my basic understanding was that it was fine to complain if a product or service was defective but not if you simply did not like it. If you buy a product and it is not suitable for your purposes or desires yet functions as it was designed to function I see no reason anyone should expect to be able to return it.

 

"I don't like it" is never justification for a refund.

 

+1 from me.

[TheRealMikeDr]

I think retailers will generally take a pen back (a pen that isn't defective) at full refund if it hasn't been inked, they charge a fee if it has been inked. For instance Goulet Pens has a 10% restocking fee if the pen was inked.

 

I think you would be wise to let people know the rules before money trades hands - makes it safe for both parties.

[Glenn Atkins]

If it was an uninked, chalked pen and you told him in advance you are being totally reasonable.

 

Glenn

[BT_Summers]

Thank you all for your comments.

[Bluey]

You should charge a fee based on any differences between when it was sold and when it was returned. As others have said, not liking a pen is no reason to return it. It's their problem for not doing their research before buying it.

 

Many retailers when selling new pens will allow you to dip test a pen in a washable ink to see if it's right for them, but if it's been hard used then there is no question that the pen is then theirs and payment should be demanded.

 

Personally I think your friend of a friend is pulling a fast one and shouldn't be entitled to returning the pen.

Edited August 15, 2017 by Bluey

[BT_Summers]

You should charge a fee based on any differences between when it was sold and when it was returned. As others have said, not liking a pen is no reason to return it. It's their problem for not doing their research before buying it.

 

Many retailers when selling new pens will allow you to dip test a pen in a washable ink to see if it's right for them, but if it's been hard used then there is no question that the pen is then theirs and payment should be demanded.

 

Personally I think your friend of a friend is pulling a fast one and shouldn't be entitled to returning the pen.

 

 

Yes, if not pulling a fast one then certainly taking liberties, he knew or ought to have known what he was buying and 'trying it out' was never discussed.

 

It really does look a very secondhand pen now, the original price was £100, that must have dropped to £45.

 

My brother had a similar issue, he deals with leather goods and 1950s writing cases in particular. Sold one to an italian buyer, signed for by his mother who put the parcel on a window shelf, the hot sun melted the glue securing the lining to the leather and it fell apart. The buyer insisted on a refund because the incident was not his fault and started a paypal claim because the item as delivered was not as described.

 

Brother gave him his money back.

[mitto]

There is no cure for dishonesty. One has to deal with, and suffer from, such situations now and then.

[eharriett]

Well, as a seller, you're running a business. The customer is not always right, but the customer is always the customer. In my own business this is something I've had to keep in mind for the 10+ years I've had a business of my own (not pens, unfortunately). You are not going to make everyone happy, but then again, you cannot always be the one 100% happy with all transactions. If you don't state return/refund policies, you definitely need to. Otherwise, both legally and ethically, the rules come down on the side of the buyer. Sorry, but that is the cost of doing business. Unless you state otherwise, if someone isn't happy, they get to ask for a return like you would do yourself personally. It doesn't matter if you are a large faceless corporation with deep pockets or a sole proprietor; unless you state NO RETURNS, there is an expectation of it.

 

As far as the Parker 51 goes, you probably could have filed a complaint to Paypal that the pen did not come back in the same condition it went out in. In this case, Paypal has protections to protect YOU. There would be hard feelings on the buyer's side, but if there is a question as to their abuse of the product before returning it. And you could decide whether your reputation would be worth that argument (depending on the loss I would take and how seriously I cared about my reputation as a pen seller, I may just suffer the loss and keep quiet), but that is an option if you want to.

 

A lot of times, especially online if a dispute goes public, opinion always leans towards the buyer; and rightly so. Our culture tends to always lend sympathy and support to the purchaser before even considering the other side, because there have been countless examples in every person's life of poor transactions, and when something like this comes up, people immediately think about the last time they were "wronged" at the cash register. However, sometimes sellers are the ones who are legitimately wronged. I hate to say that is the way of things and sellers wind up taking it on the chin, but you have to balance public perception and online reputation a lot of times with the amount of money you would be losing by keeping quiet, it can sometimes be a very difficult balancing act. A portion of every dollar you pay at any store is the cost of sellers eating a loss to take something back. And sellers with higher markups tend to be more willing to take things back without complaint. That's the low price balance vs satisfaction guarantee, I'm afraid. Or, as I said before: the cost of doing business.

[ParkerDuofold]

Well, as a seller, you're running a business. The customer is not always right, but the customer is always the customer. In my own business this is something I've had to keep in mind for the 10+ years I've had a business of my own (not pens, unfortunately). You are not going to make everyone happy, but then again, you cannot always be the one 100% happy with all transactions. If you don't state return/refund policies, you definitely need to. Otherwise, both legally and ethically, the rules come down on the side of the buyer. Sorry, but that is the cost of doing business. Unless you state otherwise, if someone isn't happy, they get to ask for a return like you would do yourself personally. It doesn't matter if you are a large faceless corporation with deep pockets or a sole proprietor; unless you state NO RETURNS, there is an expectation of it.

 

As far as the Parker 51 goes, you probably could have filed a complaint to Paypal that the pen did not come back in the same condition it went out in. In this case, Paypal has protections to protect YOU. There would be hard feelings on the buyer's side, but if there is a question as to their abuse of the product before returning it. And you could decide whether your reputation would be worth that argument (depending on the loss I would take and how seriously I cared about my reputation as a pen seller, I may just suffer the loss and keep quiet), but that is an option if you want to.

 

A lot of times, especially online if a dispute goes public, opinion always leans towards the buyer; and rightly so. Our culture tends to always lend sympathy and support to the purchaser before even considering the other side, because there have been countless examples in every person's life of poor transactions, and when something like this comes up, people immediately think about the last time they were "wronged" at the cash register. However, sometimes sellers are the ones who are legitimately wronged. I hate to say that is the way of things and sellers wind up taking it on the chin, but you have to balance public perception and online reputation a lot of times with the amount of money you would be losing by keeping quiet, it can sometimes be a very difficult balancing act. A portion of every dollar you pay at any store is the cost of sellers eating a loss to take something back. And sellers with higher markups tend to be more willing to take things back without complaint. That's the low price balance vs satisfaction guarantee, I'm afraid. Or, as I said before: the cost of doing business.

+ 1

 

Smiffy, two things you could do to protect yourself... if you think it is worth the hassle... photograph everything before you ship it out and put a seller's mark inside the cap or barrel using an invisible black light ink, (like Noodlers White Whale), so you can prove the pen returned is NOT the pen that was mailed... or prove it is, but was clearly abused by the buyer.

 

Be well... and try to enjoy life... I know it has its ups and downs.

 

 

- Anthony

 

ETA: I think the Goulet's have a pretty fair system for all parties concerned... full refund if uninked; 10% off if it's been used. (I like it as a buyer... as a seller, I'd prefer 25% off).

Edited August 15, 2017 by ParkerDuofold

[Bluey]

photograph everything before you ship it out

 

+1

Even better, make a video of it. That's what I do. Just in case.

[Sandy1]

Hi,

 

 

An uninked chalk marked P51 is to me more of a collectors' item rather than a pen to be used. (I am not a collector. So using the pen and eradicating the chalk mark significantly lowers the value - a gently used P51 is now in play.

 

If I were to purchase such a pen and not like it, I would sell it on rather than return it to the Vendor.

 

No indication that it was defective, so no obligation to engage in the return process.

 

(I'm still trying to figure-out which ink to put in my mint in box serial numbered Pilot M90, or if I should sell it, then use the proceeds to do something naughty / amusing.

 

Bye,

S1

Edited August 15, 2017 by Sandy1

[BT_Summers]

Thank you for your comments.

 

I felt let down about the 51, especially being connected to the buyer who knew what he buying, felt a little taken advantage of. (Sorry about the conjuction at the end of the sentence but English is not the main language I speak, rubbish is).

 

I hope that it wasnt a malicious or devious act - I think just thoughtless and perhaps he didnt have a concept of what a new 51 was. Better to give the benefit of the doubt I think.

Edited August 15, 2017 by smiffy20000

[ParkerDuofold]

I felt let down about the 51, especially being connected to the buyer who knew what he buying, felt a little taken advantage of.

Hi Smiffy,

 

Yes, of course you felt let down... that's only natural... you wouldn't be human if you didn't feel that way... there was a personal tie-in involved, which makes the situation feel more like a personal insult.

 

To be screwed over in business is par for the course... but when it's from a friend (or a friend of a friend in your case); it's not just the PITA aggravation of dealing with a jerk... it hurts.

 

This is why they say "never do business with friends"... or like they used to say in my old neighborhood, "this is strictly business, nothing personal; I always liked you"... then they'd drop the hammer.

 

Be well and enjoy life. Try to forget it and be thankful he's not related to you... you won't have to talk to him next Thanksgiving... or ever have to see him again.

 

 

- Anthony

 

EDITED to correct typo.

Edited August 15, 2017 by ParkerDuofold

[FriendAmos]

a friend (or a friend of a friend in your case); it's not just the PITA aggravation of dealing with a jerk... it hurts.

 

This is why they say "never do business with friends"... or like they used to say in my old neighborhood, "this is strictly business, nothing personal; I always liked you"... then they'd drop the hammer.

 

 

+1

[KellyMcJ]

Hi,

 

 

An uninked chalk marked P51 is to me more of a collectors' item rather than a pen to be used. (I am not a collector. So using the pen and eradicating the chalk mark significantly lowers the value - a gently used P51 is now in play.

 

If I were to purchase such a pen and not like it, I would sell it on rather than return it to the Vendor.

 

No indication that it was defective, so no obligation to engage in the return process.

 

(I'm still trying to figure-out which ink to put in my mint in box serial numbered Pilot M90, or if I should sell it, then use the proceeds to do something naughty / amusing.

 

Bye,

S1

This is what I'd do. Take a loss and sell it on rather than return it. The difference is the cost of the experience.

 

That was a low down and dirty thing your "friend" did. I too question if the pen returned is the original pen. Also, on their own cancelling payment? That's not how returns are typically done. You're well within your right to take this up with PayPal, if it's worth it to you to do so.

[ThreeForMe]

Can you explain what chalk marks are? What is the significance of a pen having original chalk marks?

Thanks!

[ParkerDuofold]

Can you explain what chalk marks are? What is the significance of a pen having original chalk marks?

Thanks!

Hi ThreeForMe,

 

Chalk marks are marks made by an inspector at the factory... they varied in content... sometimes indicating nib size, price and/or (just) that the pen passed inspection.

 

They're significant because they were easily worn away; so to find a pen with the original factory chalk marks shows how pristine of a specimen it really is... provided they weren't put on by a charlatan at a later date.

 

Be well and enjoy life.

 

 

- Anthony

 

EDITED to correct misspelling.

Edited August 16, 2017 by ParkerDuofold