Wet Noodle Or Just Superflex?

[bobje]

This is an interesting question. What would be a good way for a tester to demonstrate his/her ability to check a nib's flexibility, without creating concern on the part of the pen's owner/seller? As Sundowner suggests, perhaps starting by showing calligraphic/test ability with his/her own pen or dip pen?

[AD43]

 

If you are new to flex nibs and flexible writing you need to consider starting with:

 

(1) A nib with less flexibility. The lower the flexibility the better, for now

(2) A nib that does not have ultra thin line capabilities. Stay away from those XXF, XXXF, etc, for now

(3) A nib with a very rounded tipping profile.

 

The three criteria above will provide you for a more user friendlier, forgiving, and pleasurable flex writing (learning) experience. Once you master the basics of flex nibs, then you can take it one or two more notches higher with either a more flexible nib or one with thinner line capabilities.

 

Regardless of the nib you pick, beware that just because someone calls a nib flexible, superflex, etc. does not mean it is. The internet and marketplace are inundated with all sorts of incorrect information about flexible nibs, with many folks abusing their nibs, with folks making all sorts of recommendations, reviews, videos, comparisons about flexible nibs when they cannot even write their name with one. There are also quite a few "flex" items in the market place that have been poorly designed and manufactured that I would never use or recommend to anyone.

On your website you said you write with a heavier hand, about how heavy do you mean, enough pressure to get clean lines from a ballpoint, or enoughto make just legible writing with a bp?

[Mauricio]

On your website you said you write with a heavier hand, about how heavy do you mean, enough pressure to get clean lines from a ballpoint, or enoughto make just legible writing with a bp?

 

Great question and thanks for bringing this to my attention. That statement in my website is very old and outdated. Since then, I have developed the ability to use a very light hand even with the most flexible and thinnest flexibles nibs for fountain pens. That information has been updated in my website.

 

The pressure needed to use any fountain pen nib, including rigid nibs, is significantly less than using a ball point. A fountain pen that has been properly set up can write on paper just by sliding its nib on paper and with no pressure applied. Experience and dexterity achieved through practice can allow interested in developing the skills to do the same even with the thinnest possible nibs, and all of this while still maintaining the required control to keep a desired form of script. The more flexible the nib and the thinnest the lines it can produce, the harder it is to control it.

 

If you happen to be transitioning from a ball point to a fountain pen, it will take some time, practice and determination. If you are transitioning from using oversized and heavy modern fountain pens to using flexible nibs, it will take more time, more practice, and more determination as both, ball point and oversized/heavy fountain pens force the writer to use more pressure when writing than the pressure required to properly use a flexible nib.

 

To give you an idea, back when I was using ball points I developed a knuckle in my middle finger as I was applying excessive pressure holding those ball points. That knuckle in my finger disappeared after using vintage fountain pens and by not using "the death grip" when writing with them.

[AD43]

thanks for the info mauricio, I after seeing that flexibility test through weighth post decided to see my writing weight , I found my pressure for pencil and bp was 200 ish, lightest touch without starting to go wobbly was around 15 to 30, my usual fp writing weight is around 40 to 100

[ReadyFireAim]

...Perhaps that's what happens when something changes from being a tool to being a status item...

 

There is a Mexican (?) saying I like...

 

"Big hat...No cows"

[ReadyFireAim]

Erm... if that's directed at me it's misplaced.

It's directed at anyone who would advise someone interested in trying a flex pen to spend a bunch of money.

 

I fell for it & It's a crock.

Managed to get about 2/3 of my money back at the DC pen show but lost about 1K to the BS.

Expensive lesson but WTH.

 

The nibs I use now are about five bucks each and as flexible as any 100 year old gold one ever made.

If I save a few people from these snake oil salesmen, it might be worth it.

Edited September 2, 2017 by Bordeaux146

[Vintagepens]

Not to mention saving some fine old gold nibs from being overstressed to destruction . . . .

 

It's directed at anyone who would advise someone interested in trying a flex pen to spend a bunch of money.

 

I fell for it & It's a crock.

Managed to get about 2/3 of my money back at the DC pen show but lost about 1K to the BS.

Expensive lesson but WTH.

 

The nibs I use now are about five bucks each and as flexible as any 100 year old gold one ever made.

If I save a few people from these snake oil salesmen, it might be worth it.

[Synnove]

The nibs I use now are about five bucks each and as flexible as any 100 year old gold one ever made.

If I save a few people from these snake oil salesmen, it might be worth it.

While I agree that obscene amounts of money are not required, I disagree that flex can be had so easily and cheaply these days; there is no way whatever nibs you're using are as flexible as the most flexible specimens from 100 years + ago. If you can get your nibs to be as responsive as the Leonardt Principle, as a few of the gold nibs I have are, then I'd be happy to admit fault in my statement.

[ReadyFireAim]

If you can get your nibs to be as responsive as the Leonardt Principle...

OK

[Synnove]

OK

IMG_0610.JPG

While that is a commendable achievement it comes with some critical compromises in that:

 

-The nib can only be used for a short period of time before corrosion sets in.

-The corrosion can be slowed down by taking extra time and hassle to remove and clean the nib after each use.

-The ink choices you make will influence how fast it corrodes, and could also potentially lead to corrosion of other parts of the pen.

-There is no tipping so, even if you stave off the corrosion, the tip will become malformed after some use.

 

So I guess I should clarify what I meant in my previous post: I don't believe reliable flex, free of constant attention/hassle, and usable in a fountain pen, can be had easily and cheaply these days.

 

If some one could replicate the LP nib's qualities with titanium (I feel that'd be the ideal material for the job) at a reasonable price, I'd forget about my 100yr old gold nibs in a heart beat.

[ReadyFireAim]

While that is a commendable achievement it comes with some critical compromises...

 

Nibs last at least a week if you pull them every day.

I don't know about the ink. I almost exclusively use PR.

 

It takes about a minute to run them under the tap.

I found little corks at the hardware store to put in so I don't have to clean the rest of the pen.

The only gold nib I have that will do nice hairlines is my Mottishaw 912 but it won't flex more than 1mm.

Even holy grail, gold nibs won't do hairlines unless you want to put a pink nib on the grinder.

 

The last nice pink nib pen I saw went for $1,600.00

Divided by cost of nib @ $2.50 = 640

Divided by 52 weeks in a year = 12+ years

 

I'm good with that

Edited September 8, 2017 by Bordeaux146

[Synnove]

I apologize for my bluntness in advance, but what your saying is quite false.

The following stroke sets were created with six different gold nibs and one Leonardt. All the gold nibs are over 100 years old, flex over 2mm (with some over 3mm), have the original tipping with no griding done, and all but one cost less than 200 USD. Iron gall ink, Rhodia paper.

 

http://i.imgur.com/0RmPY0T.jpg

 

Can you pick out which set is the LP? And even if you can, does the (extremely slight and hard to discern) difference in hairline thickness warrant the hassle of having to replace the nib every week, worrying about potentially damaging chemical reactions, and frequent pen cleanings?

That you find you've an ideal setup is not what I'm addressing here; it's great that you've a system that works well for your needs. Rather, I'm simply taking issue with your assertion that gold flex nibs cannot inherently approach the abilities of a LP.

Edited September 8, 2017 by Synnove

[Synnove]

The visibility of a stroke is modulated by the paper, ink, how much the tines are splayed, and how quickly the ink flows off the nib (which has the factors of nib material friction, presence of a feed, etc). Furthermore, the visibility of a stroke in an image includes the above plus the particular variables involved with taking a photo, including lighting, exposure, magnification, etc. In this case, yes they could be lighter if I'd used some Old World IG ink instead of the registrars IG (thicker, flows slower), but given that this is supposed to involve fountain pens, a dip only ink wouldn't make for a fair comparison.

Basically, the LP's stroke, as well as the strokes of the other nibs, were light enough such that, any lighter, and they wouldn't even touch the paper. You can get better results with a more suitable ink and better exposure, yes, but that's beyond the scope of the situation.

Additionally, your point about swell to hairline is more to do with ink flow rate, surface tension, and calligrapher skill than it has to do with nib material.

Your condescensions aside, you're more than welcome to question my dexterity as I've no credentials to prove my abilities nor a way to quantify these attributes for the moment. I guess the only solution to this differing of views is to present the tools to a qualified calligrapher and see what they are able to do with them. That being said, I'm at a loss for the absence of logic here: assuming a similar flow of ink, similar tip width, and similar flex responsiveness, there is little reason to assume that a carbon steel nib could never be equaled by a nib of different material, and just because you've never seen it with your own eyes, doesn't mean it isn't possible (especially given the plethora of nib makers and permutations that were produced in the 19th and 20th centuries).

Hmm, not seeing any hairlines here. Your hand is not that light. If you look at some of the writing by the old masters you will see true hairlines. Also, the response on the LP after a swell is instant - such that it is possible to exit a swell almost directly into a hairline. Never seen a gold nib do that, not even the very old gold dip pens.

 

If you'll excuse the bluntness.

Edited September 8, 2017 by Synnove

[ReadyFireAim]

A hairline is 0.1mm and not just a wispy connector.

You can change direction and even form letters with it.

 

I found a couple of samples.

The green is my best vintage Waterman.

The brown is a Leonardt Principal.

The tablet is ruled 7mm so this is enlarged 200%

Edited September 9, 2017 by Bordeaux146