Waterman Prices - A "philosophical" Question...

[strelnikoff]

Dear pen enthusiasts and Waterman's aficionados, since I wonder for quite some time about this ... I'll call it an issue - I would like to hear your thoughts, and perhaps adjust my point of view.

 

Why are the prices of certain (if not all) Waterman's pens so high (insane)?

 

I've seen few #7's with Pink nib for upward of 1000 USD, and today I saw one for hefty 1,750 USD - starting/asking price. Also - 58's in their 1,500 USD or so range, Patricians - anywhere between 1,000 USD to 2,500 USD...

 

I understand rarity, "vintageness" and so on - but they are not THAT rare, and truth be told, since I own several Waterman's pens (and paid painful price for some) - they are not THAT GOOD either. For the most part, those super-flexible ones, you can't use regularly...

 

In any case, I think it may be a good topic for discussion, I/we may share thoughts and learn something... while I'm preparing to shell out another 1,000 USD (if I'm lucky) for another Waterman's. Unless I refuse out of principle and stick with working, modern Aurora 88, Eversharp (new) ... and wait until manufacturers pick up the trend and offer some truly flexible hairpin nibs or models.

 

Thanks!

 

[FarmBoy]

Condition, model, and color can be the difference in a 50 parts pen and a 1000 collection pen.

[pajaro]

There's been a lot of currency inflation, which drives up all prices, vintage or new. Some prices go up a bit, some go up more, and I think governments understate inflation so they don't have to raise salaries and pensions.

[Lam1]

Offer and demand!
While they are not rare, although the ones in good condition are getting hard to find, there seems to be more people that want a good 52 (or, pick your model) than they are in offer, that drives prices up.
But the asking price cannot serve as a measure, since some people ask whatever they dream up ($4,500 for a Patrician, ...).

But I disagree that they are not all good , and there are some that are not overpriced: those with rigid nibs - nobody seems to care about those. But, after trying one with a rigid fine nib, I will never again buy Japanese pens for my F nibs!

Edited July 12, 2017 by Lam1

[mitto]

Certainly they are, most of the times, overpriced.

[siamackz]

Well if you are "preparing to shell out another 1k" then you're not really helping the situation But this is simple economics - demand and supply.

[strelnikoff]

Well if you are "preparing to shell out another 1k" then you're not really helping the situation But this is simple economics - demand and supply.

And that is where the demon lays

 

I have restrained myself of spending ... well, around thousand plus $, and settled on - spending same amount of money on 3 pens combined. And I have stayed away from flexible nibs, got one 56, one 94 and one... Wahl...

 

I think there is more to the price inflation than just supply and demand. It's the hype.

 

Almost all reviews I have read about vintage pens, as soon as there's anything to be said about flex - just go to another surrealistic dimension, how they describe these pens. Naturally, there is (here an there) some shy disclaimer - if you are new to flex writing be careful etc - but that's about it. One can seldom read - super-flex nibs are horrible daily writers. Or horror stories about inexperienced people ruining nibs etc. Just to put things in perspective.

 

Perhaps I'm just bitter about prices. I've learned cursive when I was in elementary school including "nice writing" classes (mandatory at that time), and I've been writing and using pens of various flexibility all my life.

[strelnikoff]

Well if you are "preparing to shell out another 1k" then you're not really helping the situation But this is simple economics - demand and supply.

And btw - this was really a funny comment :D

[strelnikoff]

Certainly they are, most of the times, overpriced.

Thank you!

 

I've been looking at brand new Wahl Eversharp with Superflex nib (and one with Goldflex, which is kind of semi-flexible). That pen is ~ 800 USD (without tax). And if that is a steep price for a pen, when you try it, when you just look at it... it make sense. That pen is worth 800 USD. It's massive, solid, extra high quality, very well designed and thought through. Presentation box and all included is impressive...

 

Then - you look at most 1,000 to 4,000 USD vintage pens... well, I always utter silent "what is wrong with you" to an invisible seller and people paying for it.

Maybe I'm just jealous I can't blindly justify paying whatever the price is for whatever I may want.

[strelnikoff]

Offer and demand!

While they are not rare, although the ones in good condition are getting hard to find, there seems to be more people that want a good 52 (or, pick your model) than they are in offer, that drives prices up.

But the asking price cannot serve as a measure, since some people ask whatever they dream up ($4,500 for a Patrician, ...).

 

But I disagree that they are not all good , and there are some that are not overpriced: those with rigid nibs - nobody seems to care about those. But, after trying one with a rigid fine nib, I will never again buy Japanese pens for my F nibs!

 

And thank you for this comment!

 

I agree with you. Although I have been using nibs of various flexibility all my life, and I do know how to use super-flexible nibs etc - over the years I started to appreciate semi-flexible and near-rigid nibs of vintage quality.

 

And below - in that spirit - are just few pens I took with me to my office today. Only one is truly "super-flexible" ... first photo: Waterman's 94, Carters, Waterman's 54 and Mabie Todd Blackbird; second photo: 2 x Aurora 88 Aniversario (with adjusted feeds), Pilot Custom 1912 Heritage with FA nib and Pelikan M1000.

 

(I'm thinking about Pelikan M1000 with EF or F nib, that may give similar line variation to some semi-flex to flexible nibs of old).

[strelnikoff]

Condition, model, and color can be the difference in a 50 parts pen and a 1000 collection pen.

That I can understand...

[Lam1]

And thank you for this comment!

 

I agree with you. Although I have been using nibs of various flexibility all my life, and I do know how to use super-flexible nibs etc - over the years I started to appreciate semi-flexible and near-rigid nibs of vintage quality.

 

And below - in that spirit - are just few pens I took with me to my office today. Only one is truly "super-flexible" ... first photo: Waterman's 94, Carters, Waterman's 54 and Mabie Todd Blackbird; second photo: 2 x Aurora 88 Aniversario (with adjusted feeds), Pilot Custom 1912 Heritage with FA nib and Pelikan M1000.

(I'm thinking about Pelikan M1000 with EF or F nib, that may give similar line variation to some semi-flex to flexible nibs of old).

Wow! Those are wonderful pens.

 

How do you like the Auroras?

Didn't the feeds keep up with the nib?

[strelnikoff]

Wow! Those are wonderful pens.

 

How do you like the Auroras?

Didn't the feeds keep up with the nib?

 

Glad you've asked this question - I am preparing to post a review of this pen(s) here.

 

First I've bought that blue Aurora 88 Aniversario. Paid full market price. Did I wanted the pen that much? I can't say 100% "yes" because I haven't really tried it well enough to make a certain decision.

In any case, I've said "tell me when you get one" to shop owner, which he did and I kind of felt obligated to buy it.

 

In the beginning I didn't like the pen. In fact - I thought is was 580 USD mistake, and I was fairly annoyed with it. It was not flexing that much, it railroaded as soon as I've pushed it a bit, and it kept railroading after that even in normal writing without much pressure. So, I went on vacation, got back, decided to "give it a try, it may break in" and took it to work and kept trying. It didn't work.

 

I mean - it worked OK without much pressure, but eve then I was experiencing skips, missed starts, railroading etc.

 

Then, I've showed the pen to our local nibmeister, who is actually a doctor and in free time he visits the pen shop and works on nibs. We pulled the nib out looked at the feed and - lo and behold - it was quite obvious.

Now - I'm an engineer by vocation and I know few things here and there about physics and fluid mechanics.

 

Here's what we've found and deduced:

 

1. The feed - although it's made of ebonite - is actually the same design as in any other Aurora pen with rigid nib (88's I mean). There is a "hump" or a little "hill" in the feed channel, and it is there to restrict the ink flow. This design feature - and feed design - is appropriate for rigid nibs. Ink flow must be controlled, rigid nibs do not require that much of ink, and capillary forces always ensure flow is sufficient.

However, this is completely contra what flexible nib needs. If you look at the feeds of vintage Waterman's, Wahls... you will see that ink channel is basically a straight opening between ink reservoir and nib. Also, if tines are long - tip of the feed should go as high as possible toward the tip of the nib to keep up with flex.

 

Solution: cut out that hump/hill and allow ink flow.

 

2. Nib tipping: so, although the tines are narrow and long, Aurora still stuck with having the tipping of the nib in the form of "ball", kind of rounded. It's not as pronounced as say... Pelikan M800 etc - but still, it is not flat and thin as in vintage pens.

 

Solution: flatten the tipping material.

 

3. Nib width: Even though Aurora claims this nib is F (fine) it is more of a narrow medium, to medium than it is fine. I have Optima fine - and that is fine point. So - with flexing, the line starts wide enough, and even with any flex - variation is not so apparent.

 

Solution: grind the nib to EF.

 

 

We haven't yet applied Solution 2 and 3, but solution 1 - YES!

 

When the feed was adjusted ie. that hump/hill grinded out, the pen took another personality. It's wet, no railroading, and after few weeks of constant use, the nib "opened up", got more flexible.

It is a joy to use it now.

So much so - I've bought RED one too naturally, got feed sorted out and it works awesome - albeit with less flex since it's newer and less used.

 

I'm yet to get one of the nibs down to EF and to flatten the tipping material. Probably I'll have it first cut to EF, use it for some time and then decide if solution 2 is needed.

 

So - from expensive annoyance to pure joy of a pen.

 

 

One more thing: Pilot Custom 1912 Heritage - with FA (Falcon) nib - not the Pilot Falcon, that's always confusing - that nib is in fact fully flexible, or super-flexible.

Now, I keep hearing in reviews "this pen and nib were made for japanese or chinese symbols, short fast strokes... not for western flexible writing, so it railroads". Well, it's the same issue with this pen. The feed is normal, conventional feed used by Pilot for their rigid nibs. And I have the same pen with Waverly nib too - identical feeds.

The problem is - Pilot feed has a channel through the feeds body, then vertical hole - thus 90 degrees angle or so. It is near impossible to open up this feed. Even with grinding the feed down to the inner channel - the feed gets damaged.

So, my plan is to (one of these days) take the FA nib, and fit it to some pen with proper feed (maybe vintage) just to prove the point.

Edited July 13, 2017 by Strelnikoff

[strelnikoff]

Offer and demand!

While they are not rare, although the ones in good condition are getting hard to find, there seems to be more people that want a good 52 (or, pick your model) than they are in offer, that drives prices up.

But the asking price cannot serve as a measure, since some people ask whatever they dream up ($4,500 for a Patrician, ...).

 

But I disagree that they are not all good , and there are some that are not overpriced: those with rigid nibs - nobody seems to care about those. But, after trying one with a rigid fine nib, I will never again buy Japanese pens for my F nibs!

 

I think I should retract what I was saying about prices. But not completely!

Last night I was at the local pen club gathering and I have talked to one guy who has been collecting pens for nearly 50-60 years. When I brought up the topic of prices for some ... vintage pens, he pulled out his Waterman 58 (I've compared it to my 54 with #2 nib, photos below).

This was the first time I have ever held this pen in my hand, and tried it.

 

What he told me - is that prices actually went down. Years back (few years to ten years back) Waterman 58 was going for ~ 5,000 USD. At least that pen was worth that much money. But, at the time, not many people were looking for them and only few cared to have one - plus being ready to shell out that much money. So - if these days one Waterman 58 in decent condition goes for 1,500 USD, that's cheaper than 10 years ago (allegedly).

 

I still don't buy even 1,500 USD. While 58 is impressive pen, it just doesn't feel that valuable. But, compared to 5,000 USD - 1,500 USD seems like a bargain