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Artist V.s. Nibs

uef stipple art nib ultrafine fine finest finenibs xxf 2xf

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38 replies to this topic

#1 thepocketart

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Posted 10 July 2017 - 21:17

Hello,

 

I go by Pocket and I am an artist in Florida, new to the very overwhelmingly endless journey of acquiring my first fountain pen.

 

I don't plan on collecting many pens in the near future. I really just need a specific kind of pen that meets the requirements my new projects demand, and my curiosity brought me to think about fountain pens. What I am looking for is an extremely fine nib. I am not a line drawing artist, I am the exact opposite. I only draw with dots, small dots. The finer the dots I'm able to producer the more control I have over the textures of the subjects I draw. The tactile approach is broken down to the pixelated atomizing nature of things.

           Like a thread count in fashion, I'm looking for the Super200 of pens, if not higher. If I cannot acquire this pen because it has not been made available, I plan to make it. Passionate fans via comment sections and Youtube videos, the collectors, the admirers, they lead me to believe that this is the community that can guide me into finding and/or building this pen. I'm no longer the only overly sensitive nerdy that needs a specific pen .... 

 

I have already reached out to NIBGRINDER who has helped me a bit, might be able to grind any nib of any pen I purchase down to a beak or a Saibi-Togi . An amazingly kind Customer Service Specialist via GOULET has brought me to this Network because I voiced that I didn't want to harass them with all my strange questions.

 

Lets get to it. I need a pen finer than the one I use ... lets start there - I currently use a Copic Multiliner black ink 0.03 pen (felt tip?)

I usually have to wait for them to fade gradually from excessive use before I can get a relatively super super fine dot.

​Ah ! I need a dry pen - so more of those ridges in the feed to slow the capillary action. I feel like a wet pen defeats the purpose.

With that said I want to refrain dipping pens .... 

I've been doing some research correct me if I'm wrong.

 

What I think I am looking for is a long lasting, durable, beautiful, well respected fountain pen, ultra ultra fine tip, for dotting artwork, I do not enjoy dipping so definitely need cartridge or converter.

customizable maybe - as long as it does not compromise the quality of the pen? 

I'm really not too sure how to put value on these pens I just see price ranges and try to stay away from the cheaper ones ???? I guess ... 

 

But, I might be looking into a Squared Nub ... "what?" ..... yeah - Here's what I'm thinking, if it is possible for me to use the razor sharp squared off corners to stipple with, that's the sharpest edge I've head of thus far and as long as I'm not stabbing my paper like a maniac I should be able to draw within damaging the paper to oblivion. Only thing is, I'm not sure if those corners are capable of feeding the ink and activating capillary response. I can't find that answer anywhere.

 

 

THANK YOU IN ADVANCE FOR THE LOVE AND GUIDANCE

 

Frantz Ali Joachim

aka the pocket

IG : thepocketart

website currently under construction

 

 

 

 


AJP


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#2 OCArt

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Posted 10 July 2017 - 21:36

I think you should try a technical pen like a Rapidograph.  Here is a disposable set that you could try out to see if a technical pen meets your needs.

https://smile.amazon...s=technical pen

81HEBJwFjJL._SL1500_.jpg



#3 thepocketart

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Posted 10 July 2017 - 21:56

I think you should try a technical pen like a Rapidograph.  Here is a disposable set that you could try out to see if a technical pen meets your needs.

https://smile.amazon...s=technical pen

 

 

 

 

AH! I forgot to mention I have tried Rapidograph pens ... I actually shopped out the Rotring 0.10 because at the time I had heard great things about it. I love it so much but it isn't any finer than the pens I already use. Thank you so much though for taking the time to respond. I'm don't really post on forums or even visit any for that matter, I love the care and consideration - the community aspect.

 

I'm still going to look around on that link you shared because Rapidographs are so fun !

 

 

I was just recommended an ECO TWSBI extra fine to be grinded down even finer ... because it's so cheap at first I was a little hesitant, would it last? I do see a point in getting a Steel Nib, since I'm stippling and a smooth gliding gold nib wouldn't be much help to a dot-based relationship between pen and user.

        I think that although I would enjoy a beautifully handcrafted beauty at whatever high price range, I might just have to wait and test out a fountain that is more on the cheaper side, just in case I find that the nib isn't rivaling the Copic I already use. Since Jowo nibs are so common I wouldn't be shorthanded if I wanted to replace the body at a later date and keep the customized nib.

 

What are your guys' thoughts ??? 


AJP


#4 sciumbasci

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Posted 10 July 2017 - 22:02

Not sure you can go finer than 0.2mm

#5 thepocketart

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Posted 10 July 2017 - 22:09

Not sure you can go finer than 0.2mm

 

Thank you for the response!

 

Follow up Question:

 

On which type of pen specifically?

Or are you referring to all pens in general?


AJP


#6 AmandaW

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 01:18

I suggest trying a Platinum Carbon Desk Pen EF. They're not expensive and are designed to run the pigmented Carbon ink, which is probably more suitable for fine art than a dye-based ink. I use mine for stippling and haven't ruined it yet. The cap it comes with is good, the pen doesn't dry out and I see no need to get the stand.

 

Slightly finer still is the Platinum #3776 Ultra Extra Fine, it too will work with the Carbon ink, but might be better as an upgrade path after proving the concept with the less costly Desk Pen.


Edited by AmandaW, 11 July 2017 - 01:31.

It's all about the greys...


#7 thepocketart

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 02:37

These are awesome suggestions- bringing up the ink more suitable for fine art was something I actually overlooked .... probably should make sure the ink I end up using works the pen and that it is archival. Saved my life.

I looked at videos and specs for the pens and I'm definitely in love with the idea of either - oh especially the blue century omg I almost fell off my seat for it.

I gotta say though, the lines made worried me. I am a little worried I won't be able to find myself with a fountain pen that is finer than that. I'm actually going through with a portion of the savings to have him grind down to the finest tip he can. The TWISB Eco ... the Jowo nibs are German but he should be able to grind it down to Japanese standard of fineness, hopefully push the margin.

AJP


#8 Sandy1

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 03:15

:W2FPN:

 

Hi,

 

I keep a Copic 0.03 somewhere close, so we've some common ground.

 

Too bad the Rapidographs didn't do the trick - I thought that Member OCArt had it in one.

 

So let us continue the adventure...

 

It seems to me that one needs the specialised services of a nib crafter, but to get there a few 'oopsies' are needed - so that you can demonstrate to that person what does not work. Failed prototypes are not unexpected for such a specific demand, so please have patience.

 

At best we endevour that you do not run aground, It may well be the case that FPs cannot meet your expectations, but we have Members aplenty who can help you navigate.

 

Part of the thing is how one holds the pen, what I loosely call 'posture'. As with a technical pen, the posture should be near vertical: 90 degrees to the paper. Asian nibs and some vintage [Sheaffer] duopoints are very good at that.

>> Consider the humble high performance Pilot Penmanship.

>> Not to be ignored are the Esterbrook Extrafine firm posting (9450) and the Parker 75 Needlepoints.

 

Then there's ink and paper. For the most part I'd trend toward either iron-gall or nano-partical ink paired with a very smooth coated paper, such as Clairefontaine Triomphe. The format of writing papers might not be suitable for your work, yet that gives a starting point when chatting with a paper mill. (Not sure if Tomoe River comes in A0 size.) Some [plasticised] draughting papers could be worthy of consideration, but might not make friends with IG/NP inks.

 

Let us know how it goes.

 

Bye,

S1


Edited by Sandy1, 11 July 2017 - 07:52.

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#9 FarmBoy

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 03:24

I have encountered this request before.

If you want to go the true fountain pen route:

Esterbrook with an 8440 (superfine cartographic or mapmaking) Renew Point.
A 51 or 61 with a needle point. Needle point nibs are extremely hard to find for either of these two pens.

You could also try a 0000 Rapidiograph pen though the tip is very easy to bend and it only works when held very perpendicular to the paper.

You want to use a relatively stiff nib and a dry ink.
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#10 AmandaW

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 03:44

You stipple with the pen held vertical? If so, don't judge the fineness of the point with the thickness of the line the nib produces when held at a normal writing angle. In my experience the very tip of the pen is smaller than it's line. I can photo a sample if it will help.


It's all about the greys...


#11 Sandy1

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 04:24

You stipple with the pen held vertical? If so, don't judge the fineness of the point with the thickness of the line the nib produces when held at a normal writing angle. In my experience the very tip of the pen is smaller than it's line. I can photo a sample if it will help.

 

+1

 

I'm wondering if the tip of a simple steel Fude nib could be shaped to the appropriate width and be used inverted. e.g. Sailor DE (?)

 

The Fude shape would also allow for a less perpendicular posture: the nib is 'bent', so the user can grasp it in a more relaxed/natural angle, and still see exactly where the nib is working.

 

I reckon if a person can hone a straight razor, they should have the savvy to hone the tip of such a simple nib. (Some make squeaky noises when the strop comes into play.)


Edited by Sandy1, 11 July 2017 - 06:03.

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#12 thepocketart

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 06:19

2:03AM

 

Amanda - Photos are my fav fav fav - anyone with photos of any tests of dots ... yes please you are the bomb dot com forevermore. 

 

Alright .. Big response 

 

I've looked up all the pens mentioned above ... you all are blowing my mind left and right. I have work in 2 hours and haven't slept because ya'll are too informative and thoughtful I can't even express the gratitude in words, not even with an ultra super extra fine fountain pen. 

 

The Esterbrook nibs mentioned were extremely intriguing and made me super curious. Not sure if this is where I'm going yet but the tab remains open as I respond... it's super late so I'm not really expanding too much I'm sorry. Brain is overwhelmed and tired.

 

The pilots mentioned are not bad deals at all - these could be great first pens for me to really test the potential for all of this to work out. I like the idea of a small investment, nonetheless in the right direction. It's down to this or maybe rendering an Eco Needlepoint ? I like the idea of being able to replace that nib without too much effort and involved.

 

I didn't find any luck doing research on parkers except for this nib that made me literally lose my mind when I saw the tip on it - #80 ... http://www.parker75....bs_for_sale.htm .... I mean ... I'd want to see what that can do seriously. Practically sold. If it's a bad idea let me know but wow I don't know I'm charmed.

 

I gotta say this though, with the more rare finds I get worried. I may want a pen that is beautiful and something I can call my own, maybe unique ... BUT I can't. I realize this only now - At the end of the day, I am super careful but spilled coffee on my shirt earlier today approx. 4.8 seconds after I told my friend this was my favorite shirt ... I'm funny. I can't trust myself with something that isn't easy to replace or fix. "always gotta leave that cap on" but just in case - I have to stray away from the less accessible. I'm probably STILL going to get that #80 eventually I can't help it - I'm cursed.

 

All the advice concerning and paper and ink has been noted - I might be able to test some different stuff out before I make a purchase which is awesome. I typically draw on watercolor paper and I know what you're thinking but regardless the obvious disadvantages in light of my seeking the finest dot, the texture of that paper hasn't been rivaled. It's cheap, archival, accessible, and it brings me to touch the paper differently then all the paper I have tried at the price point to date.

 

The +1 about vertical angle two of you mentioned is something I have been thinking about since the beginning of my search and when looking at review videos and lines.... I couldn't completely be sure till you mentioned that the line doesn't represent the vertical dot capability of the pen. I stipple both at vertical and at an angle - I can switch around a lot and change the pressure just because I have been practicing all too often. This practice is with a copic not a fountain though, so I have to be extremely careful not to mix it up. You guys are the masters here. 

 

Now the Flute idea ... this idea is kind of like my Squared Nub corner idea - abstract. You are seriously onto something. Now I wouldn't be able to alternate to a vertical but would that even be a problem? - most likely not at all. I'm going to ask NIBGRINDER.

 

Also - I found myself looking at a forum on here that mentioned an XXXXF Binder being pretty much the epitome of a fine nib ... I was dumbfounded, what the heck was that? ... then FOUND myself on Richard Binder's website. I guess services provided through him are similar to NIBGRINDER ? 

 

 

 

+1

 

I'm wondering if the tip of a simple steel Fude nib could be shaped to the appropriate width and be used inverted. e.g. Sailor DE (?)

 

The Fude shape would also allow for a less perpendicular posture: the nib is 'bent', so the user can grasp it in a more relaxed/natural angle, and still see exactly where the nib is working.

 

I reckon if a person can hone a straight razor, they should have the savvy to hone the tip of such a simple nib. (Some make squeaky noises when the strop comes into play.)

 

 

You stipple with the pen held vertical? If so, don't judge the fineness of the point with the thickness of the line the nib produces when held at a normal writing angle. In my experience the very tip of the pen is smaller than it's line. I can photo a sample if it will help.

 

 

I have encountered this request before.

 

 

 

:W2FPN:

 

Hi,

 

I keep a Copic 0.03 somewhere close, so we've some common ground.

 

 


AJP


#13 thepocketart

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 06:28

flude* autocorrect

- I'll be back on tomorrow after work its nap time guys 


AJP


#14 thepocketart

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 06:38

I have encountered this request before.

If you want to go the true fountain pen route:

Esterbrook with an 8440 (superfine cartographic or mapmaking) Renew Point.
A 51 or 61 with a needle point. Needle point nibs are extremely hard to find for either of these two pens.

You could also try a 0000 Rapidiograph pen though the tip is very easy to bend and it only works when held very perpendicular to the paper.

You want to use a relatively stiff nib and a dry ink.

 

 

 

HEY before I go - I think I'm ordering a 0000 too ... I know I've tried it but hey, it can't hurt to try again its been a while and if anything I like the idea of having multiple pens to reach to. A fountain, my copic, and why not a rapid too ? 

 

Thank you ! 


AJP


#15 thepocketart

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 06:39

I think you should try a technical pen like a Rapidograph.  Here is a disposable set that you could try out to see if a technical pen meets your needs.

https://smile.amazon...s=technical pen

 

 

 

 

Just wanted to let you know you were helpful, seriously 

- I'm actually going to reach for a 0000 Kohinoor and try it out one more time ! 


AJP


#16 SoulSamurai

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 08:16

Ah ! I need a dry pen - so more of those ridges in the feed to slow the capillary action. I feel like a wet pen defeats the purpose.

 

FYI I don't think the ridges on a fountain pen feed make the pen drier (as I understand it they act more as a sort of "buffer" for the ink). At any rate a nib can be tuned to be dryer by adjusting the tines (essentially squeezing them together to make the ink channel narrower will make the nib dryer, widening the channel will make it wetter as long as the feed can keep up). If you're planning on sending a nib to be ground down to a finer point then I believe the nibmeister should usually be able to adjust the pen to the desired level of wetness/dryness while he's working on it.



#17 thepocketart

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 09:07

 

FYI I don't think the ridges on a fountain pen feed make the pen drier (as I understand it they act more as a sort of "buffer" for the ink). At any rate a nib can be tuned to be dryer by adjusting the tines (essentially squeezing them together to make the ink channel narrower will make the nib dryer, widening the channel will make it wetter as long as the feed can keep up). If you're planning on sending a nib to be ground down to a finer point then I believe the nibmeister should usually be able to adjust the pen to the desired level of wetness/dryness while he's working on it.

 

 

I'm at work but definitely read this:

This is super super useful - I'm going to bring this up to just to make sure that this is happening as I move forward with the NIBGRINDER .

 

THANK YOU!!!


AJP


#18 Inksomnia

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 14:36

I'm artist too and had my own hunt for perfect nib. First thing, ef isn't fine enought for you use. I was actually really dissapointed that EF is more like 0.5. I have Aristo mg1 0.18 technical drawing pen, pain to maintain gives really uniform dots. There is also finer nibs avaible for these. But they bent so easily, especially when stippling.. (and note here, these use different scale than microns, copics etc fineliners). I also have custom grinded needlepoint twsbi eco. And I love my eco, it's really nice to hold and works so well. Twsbis are also easily maintainable. And there is some color selection as well. And they nibs aren't that expensive, even custom, so they are easily replacaple if they broke.

 

One thing that you might want to think is ink. Basic fountain pen inks are not lightfast, they are dye based, nor waterproof. I use Platinium Carbon ink for my artworks, which is lightfast and waterproof. There is other waterproof and lightfast pigment based ink as well.

 

But here is little sample for you. Dots I made by holdin pen 90 degree angle. Ignore that micron, I think tip is damaged. But there is something to compare how EF actually seems huge compared to XXXF. So Twsbi eco needlepoint(XXXF)  makes smallest dots.  I ordered my nib from here: http://www.fpnibs.co...ef/regrind-xxxf

 

IMG_0117.JPG

 

I don't have copic fineliners to compare, but hope this helps a little.



#19 Sandy1

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 15:36

Hi,

 

RE: Paper

 

Kindly consider photographic printer paper, (not the wet-process light sensitive silver halide enlarging paper. It is designed to accept dye and keep dot size as intended: less gain than watercolour paper. The Canson product line should serve as a primer.

 

We have a Photo Forum, so denizens of that Forum should be of more help than yours truly, whose camera is a Rollei 35 that lives in a ski boot.

 

Bye,

S1


Edited by Sandy1, 11 July 2017 - 16:03.

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#20 thepocketart

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 15:55

I'm artist too and had my own hunt for perfect nib. First thing, ef isn't fine enought for you use. I was actually really dissapointed that EF is more like 0.5. I have Aristo mg1 0.18 technical drawing pen, pain to maintain gives really uniform dots. There is also finer nibs avaible for these. But they bent so easily, especially when stippling.. (and note here, these use different scale than microns, copics etc fineliners). I also have custom grinded needlepoint twsbi eco. And I love my eco, it's really nice to hold and works so well. Twsbis are also easily maintainable. And there is some color selection as well. And they nibs aren't that expensive, even custom, so they are easily replacaple if they broke.

 

One thing that you might want to think is ink. Basic fountain pen inks are not lightfast, they are dye based, nor waterproof. I use Platinium Carbon ink for my artworks, which is lightfast and waterproof. There is other waterproof and lightfast pigment based ink as well.

 

But here is little sample for you. Dots I made by holdin pen 90 degree angle. Ignore that micron, I think tip is damaged. But there is something to compare how EF actually seems huge compared to XXXF. So Twsbi eco needlepoint(XXXF)  makes smallest dots.  I ordered my nib from here: http://www.fpnibs.co...ef/regrind-xxxf

 

attachicon.gifIMG_0117.JPG

 

I don't have copic fineliners to compare, but hope this helps a little.

 

 

This is super helpful I was definitely leaning towards the Eco the more I researched and checked out reviews and whatnot .... jeeezzz those dots are absolutely charming from what I can see here and with enough control hopefully at a fast pace I'll keep it vertical and consistent. For the most part I have to say that the copic 003 is basically super similar to a Micron Pigma 005 or even the Rotring .10 Rapid. I mean, sure there are those slight variations and you can use them a little different, I always loved my copics they died down better and eventually, over time, they'd hold a very similar dot to those Eco dots but you had to wait to get there as the pen faded or you'd have to be a little rough to eventually 'damage' the nib - I called it fixing the nib because that fresh pen was wet obviously and didn't work for me. 

 

I'm sold on this Eco .. I see that if I ever wanted a different body I could get some other Twbi pens - I do wonder though what pens outside of Twsbi take the same size nib Jowo #4. It'd be cool to customize eventually and get into the style after I've found my way to getting my functional nib. 

 

Seriously this photo helped so much I have seen and or owned some of these pens and it really helps to see the actual dots and compare. We seriously have a winner here. 


AJP






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