Newbie Grinding Montblanc 84 Nib

[ac12]

 

My heart was broken when i saw these comments and i have learnt a high cost lesson . I definitely stay my Montblanc from the abrasive paper.

 

In fact, i have grinded some steel nib before. This is the first time for me to grind gold nib and i have to confess that i am not skillful enough. In this grinding, I thought i have avoided the flat spot problem (I have created a big flat spot in my steel nib before), as i grinded this nib with water and in different angles. Could you describe how bad is the flat spot problem? I have grinded this nib on abrasive papers about 10 strokes each(2400, 4000, 5000 grit) So what other suggestions to avoid creating flat spot and what is the time duration for grinding a nib?

 

Lastly, is it expensive to send it to nib meister?

 

There is no formula for how much to grind. It depends on what needs to be done. Some nibs may be relatively easy, other more difficult.

You have to constantly check the nib as you grind, to monitor your progress. If you did 10 strokes without checking after every couple of strokes, you were not monitoring your progress to catch any error or problem.

 

As for how long it will take to grind a nib. A nib meister may take only a few minutes to grind the nib, whereas it may take me an hour. Speed comes with knowledge and skill.

 

A good portion of the cost will be shipping, to and from the nib meister.

You have to check their web sites to get an approximate cost.

Here is one to check: http://www.mikeitwork.com/NibRepair.html

There are many others, but I do not have personal experience with them.

[Bo Bo Olson]

It could be a 84...a rolled gold MB was from the '60's and could have a semi-flex nib.....then the oblique you ground into the nib, might not be a total waste.. I just looked up MB 84 in I'm not that into them having only 6. ...3 from the '50's.

It could be the nib is 'true' regular flex, in I'm not sure when MB went away from semi-flex. My Large '70-80 146 is a 'true' regular flex. It's older medium-large 146 is semi-flex.

 

If it is not a semi-flex nib...then it is a total waste of your grinding to have made a oblique....for line variation.

I have some 13 or so Obliques in semi&maxi-semi-flex.

 

I had a 18 K nail OB that was a total waste of nib.........no line variation at all. PB2 made it CI for me.

I have a W. Germany 200....not worth the grind it was given....for line variation. I trans-mailed some modern oblique 200 nibs to a pal in England, in there idiots in Germany who refuse to mail outside Germany. There was no line variation unless one needed two hands to max the nib. Having many semi&maxi-semi-flex nibs........the lesser flex in Oblique just don't work.

 

However......Some folks have left eye dominance and cant their nibs....so an Oblique on a nail, semi-nail or the 'old' regular flex would be ok for that or if one is left handed....it could be in the tines don't flex too much....as might be the case with semi-flex.

 

Have the nibmeister check if you have a semi-flex nib.....and if you want that oblique you ground into it made better. I like an occasional oblique semi-flex. You do have to learn to use one, and it's rather simple....post the cap, align the clip between the slit and right hand edge of the nib. Grip the pen, put it to paper and write.

 

 

I'm wondering if you had an oblique nib all along and by holding it straight....ended up being rough or scratchy because you were not canting the nib like an Oblique should be.

That happened to me once, a pen I'd put away for a longer time got put into use and I'd forgotten it was oblique (OM) and it was scratchy. An OB even if not held right will not be so scratchy having a wider sweet spot...but a small bit.

 

I don't know how much you took off, but normally I'd think that could be a semi-flex in they were flat and stubbish in the '50-60's. So could be it's not as bad as it 'looks'.

 

It could be a semi-flex Oblique. Is there any markings you can read anywhere on the pen or the nib???

Edited May 21, 2017 by Bo Bo Olson

[welch]

I say "nib smoothing" or "nib tuning" when I ask a nib specialist to turn a scratchy nib into a smooth nib. I think that's what you want, and it's typical of what people want when they have a nib, especially an older nib, that does not feel quite perfect. Nib tuning is not expensive.

 

I say "nib grinding" when I ask a nib specialist to take a medium nib down to a fine nib, or to chop a nib into a stub.

 

Indy Pen Dance: http://www.indy-pen-dance.com/nib-work.html

 

John Mottishaw: https://www.nibs.com/content/services-price-list

[lawrenceloklok]

It could be a 84...a rolled gold MB was from the '60's and could have a semi-flex nib.....then the oblique you ground into the nib, might not be a total waste..

What is the score of my nib grinding if ten is full mark.

[lawrenceloklok]

 

However......Some folks have left eye dominance and cant their nibs....so an Oblique on a nail, semi-nail or the 'old' regular flex would be ok for that or if one is left handed....it could be in the tines don't flex too much....as might be the case with semi-flex.

 

What is that mean? Why if one is left handed then the tines don't flex too much?

 

 

I'm wondering if you had an oblique nib all along and by holding it straight....ended up being rough or scratchy because you were not canting the nib like an Oblique should be.

That happened to me once, a pen I'd put away for a longer time got put into use and I'd forgotten it was oblique (OM) and it was scratchy. An OB even if not held right will not be so scratchy having a wider sweet spot...but a small bit.

 

 

How to cant the nib in Oblique nib, can you take a picture for me? Or Is Oblique similar to flat spot which only smooth at a particular direction?

[lawrenceloklok]

You do have to learn to use one, and it's rather simple....post the cap, align the clip between the slit and right hand edge of the nib. Grip the pen, put it to paper and write.

What is that mean?

[lawrenceloklok]

I don't think MB 84 is a flex nib. Here is the link of review of MB 82

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/87382-montblanc-meisterstuck-82-fully-rolled-gold-beauty/

[lawrenceloklok]

I say "nib smoothing" or "nib tuning" when I ask a nib specialist to turn a scratchy nib into a smooth nib. I think that's what you want, and it's typical of what people want when they have a nib, especially an older nib, that does not feel quite perfect. Nib tuning is not expensive.

 

I say "nib grinding" when I ask a nib specialist to take a medium nib down to a fine nib, or to chop a nib into a stub.

 

Indy Pen Dance: http://www.indy-pen-dance.com/nib-work.html

 

John Mottishaw: https://www.nibs.com/content/services-price-list

The reason that i grind this pen not because of the smoothness. The pen had ink flow issue, which only a particular angle has good ink flow. You can check the following link:

at 7:55-8:07.

It is about sbrebrown MB 22 review. I don't know whether it is call baby's bottom issue.

Edited May 22, 2017 by lawrenceloklok

[Bo Bo Olson]

Start with the first review....the reviewer didn't know about semi-flex......Which Is Not.....A "Flex" nib. You have to realize the review was made back in the dark ages of 2008.

 

I'd really thought Mr. Brown would know enough to cant an oblique nib...he didn't. Yes, Vintage and Semi-vintage nibs are 1/2 a nib width narrower than modern.

A 22 or 222 are often semi-flex...I don't know enough to say they all are.. I have a 234 1/2.....4 1/2 = nib size it is semi-flex and oblique OB....and is on the narrow side of M. I have Pelikans of that era similar in narrow in OB&OM.

 

Grade...with luck a 3. If the nib is a semi-flex....it was stubbed when it was made so is flat on the bottom.....I don't know how much you took off.

 

You should post on the MB subsection to find out if the 84 was semi-flex or 'true' regular flex.....I suspect semi-flex.

Do you get thick and thin lines with out sweating or using two hands?

 

Some German pens with stiff nibs like Lamy, Tropen or Herlitz will have the American Bump Under........(I do have no name semi-flex German pens from the the '60s' with the American Bump Under.....but the brand names with some flex....semi/maxi were stubs. That is why folks love them. Stub + a tad of flex.

 

Semi-flex is not a "Flex" nib.

Semi=almost....

Please read my signature for more on semi-flex. It adds natural flair, and is not for real fancy writing....with practice some fancy can be added occasionally to something like an end of sentence descender. But it is nib abuse to do that all the time.

 

A nail, has tine spread when ruined. Most pens now made so, for less repair costs. Most P-51's are nails. Pelikan 800, Safari. Do be careful lending a fountain pen....a ham fisted Ball Point Barbarian can make even a nail into a pretzel.

A semi-nail, when mashed by a power lifter will spread it's tines 2X a light line.....P-75, very modern post '97 Pelikan 400/600.

 

((A 'Springy' nib spreads it's tines only 2 X but has good tine bend...as much as semi-flex, like a Falcon, or a modern MB or a Lamy Imporium (a very, very good 'Springy' nib, better than MB.) But those are not a semi-nail, in there is nice tine bend....just lacks a bit of tine spread....IMO.))

 

These three are all in a 3 X tine spread set. As far as I know in western pens, the Pelikan 200 and could be some Aurora pens, could be 'true' regular flex. Was found often in vintage and semi-vintage days.

 

'True' regular flex will spread it's tines 3 X when mashed. Called 'true' regular flex by me in most companies use to make this flex of nib as regular issue, no longer do and someone new to pens, have mistaken it for semi-flex in the tines "move!" If I just said, regular flex....folks with nails or semi-nails might think their nibs are regular flex....in that is now what is regular issue.

 

(In you don't know of old true regular flex....is because because too many Ball Point Barbarians bent those nibs, so the companies mostly stopped making them. Pelikan makes that only for the 200 now.

 

You need a pen that is the 'true' regular flex....then you have a base pen to check against if another pen is semi-flex or how much of a superflex you have in some pen someday. A Geha school pen is a good cheap one...E12-19 on German Ebay. Must take PenPal and mail to your country. )

 

Semi-flex requires half that pressure to spread the tines 3X. Some English Swans, some English Parker (Not US made) and Commonwealth made Snorkels are semi-flex...(some early '50's US ones are semi-flex) .

1950's German semi-flex nibs are stubs!!! Soennecken, MB, Pelikan, Geha, Osmia, Kaweco and some others, made stub nibbed pens of this type from before the 1950....Pelikan stopped in 1965....MB could have done it a tad longer. Geha did to '72.......My '70s-80 (feed gives the @ time era) 146 is not semi-flex it is 'true' regular flex.

The Pelikan 1000 is one of the few semi-flex pens now made, but it is 18 K so will bend and stay bent easier than the vintage '50-65 14 K semi-flex nibs.

 

At a flea market I found one of those semi-flex Pelikan 140's folks talked about on this com. I put the nib to my thumbnail to test it..... suddenly I knew what all the fuss was about, even before inking it.

 

(Being heavy handed, it took me three months of use to lighten up my Hand. the nib was sturdy enough to do so, and I was not maxing the nib all the time. One should not max a nib often. Richard Binder in is site, has a great article of how to spring your nib. 110% worth reading. )

 

Maxi-semi-flex half of semi-flex or 1/4th the pressure to mash a 'true' regular flex to 3 X.

Outside of Osmia (Supra nib), none of the companies marked this nib flex. I have a medium-large '50-60's MB 146 in this, two of that era's Pelikans, a Geha and some marked Supra Osmia nibs. I guesstimate 1 in 5 is Maxi, in the semi-flex 'folder', out side of the marked Osmia/O-F-C nibs.

 

I have 26 or so semi-flex 13-15 maxi-semi-flex and some 13 or so Obliques (all are stubs as was normal in the '50's)*** in a combination of both flexes.

It is my experience that only semi&maxi-semi-flex obliques are worth buying if one is right handed. Some Left handers unless under writers have probmems with semi-flex and with semi/maxi-semi-flex Obliques, in the tines bend the wrong way. Instead of being pulled they have to push the nib.

**** Stub plus semi/maxi-semi-flex = line variation.

Oblique semi/maxi-semi-flex = even more line variation.

 

I have a '51-56 or so 742 a rolled gold pen, and it is heavy. Yours is 130mm capped and 145 posted. Mine is 125 capped and 143mm posted. To post a pen, gently stick the cap on the back of the pen. If you are scared of mars, small marks....wax your pen. I've never had a pen mar on me if waxed.

 

Most of the vintage or semi-vintage pens (normally standard or medium-long) can be posted and in most cases should be posted to have any balance. (metal pens being heavy, you have to decide....your pen body is a tad longer than mine. Mine lacks balance, and is too short unposted. But is a heavy pen posted. I do post it when I use it.

 

If you hold a fountain pen like a ball point it will write scratchy when it is a Vintage nib, unless it's a Kugle....which is so marked on my '52-54 only MB 234 1/2 KOB for folks that held their pen like a pencil....but flat on the bottom to be used also like a fountain pen...............I don't expect your pen to have any markings, as explained later.

 

95% of scratchy is misaligned tines and holding a fountain pen like a ball point.

You need a loupe. I have a 40 X lighted Chinese loupe that impressed me. It is as good as my good glass 10X one....and lighted.

 

I let all pens 'rest' behind my big index finger, where they wish. Some like it at 45 degrees, others at 40 degrees at the start of the web of the thumb, my 742 rests at 35 degrees in the pit of the web of my thumb, like other large or heavy pens...........resting there 'hard' takes weight off the front of the pen, so that 'lightens' up the pen when writing.

 

The MB 742 has the only nib I have that is in between semi-flex and maxi-semi-flex. One could call it semi-flex +. I won it at a live auction, so knew I had a good nib. I had thought it a maxi, but when I got it home it was semi-flex +, and not ++ of a maxi.

Subjunctive feel....doing grams on a scale never quite worked out well from those who tried it.

 

 

 

Now to oblique....left foot is what most right handers use, some right foot are mostly used by left handers...or right handers that want a tad different. Look at your left foot. That is the direction of the grind.

It is often @15 degrees angle, or @30 degrees. I lucked out....pure luck in most sellers don't know much, they can't they tell you what angle it is ground at. I have in a mix of semi&maxi, OBB, OB, OM and OF in both 15&30 degree grinds.

 

Sitting here in Germany at the well, I see more of all of them than most. I think that in the 'fabled' corner pen store back in the days of yore, if someone wanted a bit more flair to their oblique the well trained....could get a job as a nibmister today, sales clerk or the store owner took the nib in the back room and doubled the grind. I don't have any that are '22' degrees, they all seem 15 or 30.

 

 

To use an oblique as a new user one must post the cap. A good thing to do with any semi-vintage or vintage standard or medium-large pens. It gives them the grand balance of the day. (Outside the Snorkel and the P-45 all Large pens I've tired lack balance...........none of the old day pens did, or they wouldn't sell.)

A cap has a clip....line the clip up in the middle between the slit of the nib and right hand edge if it has 15 degrees of grind. Line the clip up at the right hand edge of the nib if it is 30 degrees of grind.

Grip the pen before putting it to the paper by looking at the clip as the top of the pen....then put it to the paper and write....don't twist your fingers, your arm nor hang off the chandelier. Just write, that will put the nib properly canted flat on the paper.

That was part of the reason I said you may have already had an oblique nibbed pen, and by putting it straight on the paper like a normal nib....it would be scratchy.!!!!!!!!!!

You may have been trying to 'repair' what is not broken.

 

Mine has in very small letters 742 on it...no nib size....something MB didn't do for years...not on my 2006 Woolf either. So I don't expect your pen to say OB, OM, or OF when it well could be....sometimes they did back in the old days, like my '52-54 MB 234 1/2 Deluxe KOB is marked. So is the side of the pen with a MB brand in gold letters.

 

Left/Right eye dominance.....my wife who is left eye dominate, refuses to shoot left handed, so has to crawl all over a rifle stock or hold a piston across body to see with......in she is a fine shot. She cant's any fountain pen I put in her hand......she cant's it a lot....cant = turn sideways abit. That is where I came up with the idea of left eye dominate folks canting nibs and liking them, even if they don't give any line variation. I had a Lamy Persona their flag ship from 1990-2000, and it had a nail OB..............absolutely no line variation.

Eventually PB2 turned it into a non-oblique straight CI with line variation.http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/o707/boboolson1/IMG_3994_zpsnmbvoez0.jpg

I had a nail Lamy27 OM===no line variation. I had Pelikan 200 oblique nibs I trans-mailed to a pal in England, in there are Germans who refuse to mail outside of Germany. No line variation.

I even have a W.Germany 200 nib in OM and one has to max the nib to get anything and one should out side of the first time one has a nib to see what it does, never max a nib. It was nothing to write home about....sigh cubed.

If you are not left eye dominate; and want line variation, don't waste your money on an Oblique that is not a German semi/maxi.

 

Hold your thumb out if front of your right eye., with your left eye closed. Line the thumb up on something like a line. Close both eyes and open the left one....if the thumb has moved right, you are right eye dominate.

Many people who are left eye dominate like my wife and a few in every class back in the day of B&W TV, cant the nib.....turn it to the left, in they are left eye dominate and write right handed and by canting the nib, it allows the left eye to see it easier.

 

Dip pens are the best way to do superflex....if you ruin a nib, no big deal.

Superflex spreads their tines 4-5or6 & rarely 7X a light down stroke. To stay with my simplistic system of flex rate. I divide superflex....one word....not 'Flex' unless it can be assumed you know what you are talking about. Every one starts out here...or most start here as 'noobies', after a year one is only half a noobie, and so on.

The more superflex pens one has the more variation there will be found, but for beginners this is hand grande close.

Easy Full Flex, takes half the pressure of a maxi or 1/8th the pressure needed to mash a 'true' regular flex nib to 3x to what every width it maxes at. I have 6 or 8 of them. One is a Pelikan 100n, that does 5 X, and I keep it at a max of 4 X...because I don't want to spring my nib.

Wet Noodle half of that or 1/16th a 'true' regular flex. I have two.

Weak Kneed Wet Noodle.....even less than that....I have none. Term from a nib grinder name of John Swoboda/Oxnard on this com.

There are dip pen nibs that makes a Wet Noodle look uncooked.

 

Any questions?

For the first three or four years here, one learns something new every day........then every week....and once a month.

But in the meanwhile there is paper............

Then there is ink.

 

In 15 or so years one might know something.........just be glad, there are no tests.

 

Writing is 1/3 nib width/flex, 1/3 paper and 1/3 ink and in that order.

 

Good to better paper costs US two cans of machine delivered Coke or a cup or two of Starbucks coffee, more than cheap 80g printer paper.

There is no reason out side of an opps out of paper to use better paper in a printer.

Do Not use Ink Jet paper for your fountain pen....it will feather.

 

I suggest buying a ream, or a 100-80 sheet box of good to better paper every three inks. By the time you have 30-40 inks you will have some 15 good to better papers. One don't use them up all that fast.

Edited May 22, 2017 by Bo Bo Olson