Is This New? Is This Old?

[eharriett]

Continuing my apparent tradition of never passing up the purchase of any Waterman pen I don't own, I found myself at a flea market and found a guy with a Waterman. I have no idea what I got. The thing that is stumping me most though, isn't the model (although I'm curious about that too), but the age. Something about this pen says "newer pen - not vintage." Yet at the same time, the markings say vintage. It says "Waterman's". It says "Ideal." It is kind of a smaller nib. It is a lever filler. But the size and shape and W on the cap lead me to believe it is newer. The barrel feels aluminum.

 

Soaking it now to try and get it open. Looks like it will be a great writer if I can resac it properly.

 

Can someone tell me what I have? Thanks!

[Mr.Rene]

No idea about model but it is a older Waterman pen..maybe around 1950-60' years...

[eharriett]

OK that something. I didn't notice until I started polishing up the barrel while the nib is soaking, but there is a faint trace of the Waterman stamp on it. Yeah, definitely not modern Waterman. Would still like to know more about what it is, though, if anyone else has suggestions, would be appreciated.

[RMN]

I think that W is from the "early French years" after Jules Fagard took over. As Mr Rene says, 50-60, perhaps early 70s

 

 

 

D.ick

[Chrissy]

I would call it old. It's an original lever filler, not a reproduction, so it must be at least as old as RMN suggests.

[Left FPN]

A Leader according to Ernst,

 

http://dirck.delint.ca/beta/?page_id=5483

[eharriett]

A Leader according to Ernst,

 

http://dirck.delint.ca/beta/?page_id=5483

That would appear to be an exact match! Force, once again I am amazed by your knowledge.

 

So this little thing is interesting. Waterman tried to make a third tier pen to appeal to its new buyers and this is it, trying to compete with Werever's and Parker 21's, but I would swear the nib and feed unit look like they're older stock from a higher end pen. I wonder if they were and this was the company's way of clearing out inventory? Google isn't turning up much on this pen. I'll have to see if I can find more. As far as non-metal pens (aside from the cap) goes, it appears really durable, like it was made to be a workhorse, so I'd believe the article when they said this was meant to be for students.

[Left FPN]

That would appear to be an exact match! Force, once again I am amazed by your knowledge.

 

So this little thing is interesting. Waterman tried to make a third tier pen to appeal to its new buyers and this is it, trying to compete with Werever's and Parker 21's, but I would swear the nib and feed unit look like they're older stock from a higher end pen. I wonder if they were and this was the company's way of clearing out inventory? Google isn't turning up much on this pen. I'll have to see if I can find more. As far as non-metal pens (aside from the cap) goes, it appears really durable, like it was made to be a workhorse, so I'd believe the article when they said this was meant to be for students.

Please all praise to Ernst for his hard work in cataloguing what would be lost data.

 

His web is well worth saving to your Favourite file. http://dirck.delint.ca/beta/?page_id=4690

[Parker51]

An interesting pen at an interesting price point, about $38.00 in today's dollars for a lever fill, 14kt gold nibbed pen. If they were under production today with those characteristics I believe they would sell quite well.

[crescentfiller]

Please all praise to Ernst for his hard work in cataloguing what would be lost data.

 

His web is well worth saving to your Favourite file. http://dirck.delint.ca/beta/?page_id=4690

 

 

I heartily agree! I go to his Sheaffer pages rather frequently.

 

Thanks Ernst!

[eharriett]

An interesting pen at an interesting price point, about $38.00 in today's dollars for a lever fill, 14kt gold nibbed pen. If they were under production today with those characteristics I believe they would sell quite well.

 

The sac residue is scraped off and I'll be resacking it tomorrow. I'd buy what Ernst said about it. The "W" emblem has the 1977 Star Wars W on it, indicative of the French company (think Charleston), but the marking on the nib is definitely from the older U.S. company. So I'd agree with the assessment that it was a way to clear out old stock for the new owners. But yeah, this is a pretty well put together pen that no one seems to be talking about. The barrel is plastic, but the plastic is THICK. I did some polishing to it and there was no give at all in it. No scratches too deep. The metal cap is not too shabby either. About the only real mark on it is a previous owner looked like they rocked the clip side to side and it left scratching like a windshield wiper, but the cap isn't loose at all. The sac is, obviously gone, but the J clip isn't showing rust. The lever has some resistance going back down after pulling it, but I've got a lot of pens that do that. So either this was a meticulously cared for pen (which I would find hard to believe), or there was a great deal of durability in it, belying its price point and who it was marketed towards).

[eharriett]

So, I thought you might like a little writing sample. That Leader is no slouch. I'd say the writing experience is on par with the Sheaffer School pens and frankly a number of much higher end pens. Just slightly too thick for me, but it is very, very light. Surprisingly so, in fact. The weight belies its size. Writing is not as good as the other Watermans I decided to use here, but for my personal style, Watermans write better than anything else I use anyway except for Sheaffer conical nibs. Enjoy. I hope if you see a Waterman Leader out in the wild, you consider picking one up and showing it some ink love. I will be.

 

 

[Ernst Bitterman]

Apart from acknowledging some of the kindness above I thought I might speculate about that W. The Leader appears far enough ahead of the collapse of the US house that I don't think it's to do with shifting old stock (I've seen some materials from 1961 which Bic was still selling Waterman in the US, and the branding is more contemporary than the old serif-face but has no enclosed Ws in it). My suspicion is that Waterman, or at least some sub-set of the management, was setting up to re-brand the company, and they used the brand-new just-for-kids as the vehicle for it. when those kids leave school and look at getting a grown-up pen, about five years on, they'll now be used to the new logo, while those who grew up with the older globe branding are less likely to be buying new pens; they already have one. JiF didn't adopt the logo, as far as I can make out until... well, roughly five years later; perhaps because the plans were already in train, perhaps just as part of the loot they collected off the teetering corpse.

 

You may counter this speculation with "Then why doesn't that Circle W show up on the spiffy new C/F, an obvious vehicle for a new logo in 1953?" I have no adequate answer other that to admit that I'm making up stories of dubious plausibility, and that perhaps one of the reasons Waterman got into trouble in the early '50s is that there wasn't enough internal co-ordination. "Damn it, I'm not putting that logo on this pen; that's Jenkins' work, and Jenkins is one of those fifth-floor idiots! We here on the sixth floor will have none of their foolery!"

 

However-- here's an ad from 1951; you can (just) make out the new logo in the box of the Leader, as well as on the cap, but it doesn't appear ANYWHERE else.

 

Edited May 11, 2017 by Ernst Bitterman

[jmnav]

So, I thought you might like a little writing sample. That Leader is no slouch. I'd say the writing experience is on par with the Sheaffer School pens and frankly a number of much higher end pens. Just slightly too thick for me, but it is very, very light. Surprisingly so, in fact. The weight belies its size. Writing is not as good as the other Watermans I decided to use here, but for my personal style, Watermans write better than anything else I use anyway except for Sheaffer conical nibs. Enjoy. I hope if you see a Waterman Leader out in the wild, you consider picking one up and showing it some ink love. I will be.

 

 

What can I say about your text, but that I own a second year de Luxe Hundred Year (also in red), just a bit bigger than yours... and I agree with you: mine's the perfect size!!!

[eharriett]

Apart from acknowledging some of the kindness above I thought I might speculate about that W. The Leader appears far enough ahead of the collapse of the US house that I don't think it's to do with shifting old stock (I've seen some materials from 1961 which Bic was still selling Waterman in the US, and the branding is more contemporary than the old serif-face but has no enclosed Ws in it). My suspicion is that Waterman, or at least some sub-set of the management, was setting up to re-brand the company, and they used the brand-new just-for-kids as the vehicle for it. when those kids leave school and look at getting a grown-up pen, about five years on, they'll now be used to the new logo, while those who grew up with the older globe branding are less likely to be buying new pens; they already have one. JiF didn't adopt the logo, as far as I can make out until... well, roughly five years later; perhaps because the plans were already in train, perhaps just as part of the loot they collected off the teetering corpse.

 

You may counter this speculation with "Then why doesn't that Circle W show up on the spiffy new C/F, an obvious vehicle for a new logo in 1953?" I have no adequate answer other that to admit that I'm making up stories of dubious plausibility, and that perhaps one of the reasons Waterman got into trouble in the early '50s is that there wasn't enough internal co-ordination. "Damn it, I'm not putting that logo on this pen; that's Jenkins' work, and Jenkins is one of those fifth-floor idiots! We here on the sixth floor will have none of their foolery!"

 

However-- here's an ad from 1951; you can (just) make out the new logo in the box of the Leader, as well as on the cap, but it doesn't appear ANYWHERE else.

 

(Sorry for the delay) That's kind of cool. I wonder if Pen Collectors of American has researched this. Might be an interesting article to bring to light: the transition of the "W" on the Waterman.

 

What can I say about your text, but that I own a second year de Luxe Hundred Year (also in red), just a bit bigger than yours... and I agree with you: mine's the perfect size!!!

Jealous! I love my hundred year. Although that Leader isn't a slouch.