The Shame Of Nibs Being Outsourced?

[Ted A]

How deep into the process must one go to be producing one's own nibs? Should not the process of making the alloy be included? After all, if the alloy mixture varies, how can you be controlling the production of the engine? Or how about smelting the metal from the ore and ore bearing rocks?

 

Seems to me that it's the end result that matters and the quality control is more important.

[jar]

Try writing with a nib.

 

I don't know about you guys but I find them way too small to use comfortably and when I dip them in the inkwell I often end up with ink on my fingers. Once one slipped and I had to stick my fingers all the way in to fish it from the bottom and folk called me Mr Green Fingers for a week.

 

More than a nib is desirable.

 

Feeds help.

 

Having a body helps.

 

Having a cap helps.

 

Having a way to store ink helps.

 

Take any part away and the experience suffers.

 

Back to Nakaya.

 

They buy the ebonite from Niki.

 

The Urushi is from yet other sources, harvested by someone, then processed by someone else then applied by someone.

 

Who knows who made the machines used to turn the body and cap.

 

Yet what we judge in reality is the finished project. The source of the various steps and components may well be of interest just as the style of urushi or maki-e is of interest, but it is still the final product, the sum of all the steps and components that we judge.

 

 

[Mulrich]

And Planes

• Neither Boeing nor Airbus makes ALL the parts in their planes themselves. So those planes are second rate planes?

 

 

And to further counter the Porsche engine analogy, most Boeing engines are made by GE, Rolls-Royce, or Pratt & Whitney.

 

Given the small size of the fountain pen industry it probably makes more sense to have a few companies specialize in nibs that are used by a larger number of pen manufacturers. As has been already stated, I don't care who makes the nib so long as it's well made.

[TassoBarbasso]

<p>

 

So then similar for cameras?

• Since Nikon is using a Sony sensor then Nikon is to be downgraded as a camera?
• What of Hasselblad, I think Fuji is making their digital cameras. So downgrade Hasselblad as well?

And cars

• That Porsche, Mercedes, McLaren, Lexus, Penski, etc do not make the tires for their cars, should they all be downgraded? After all it is the tires that connects the car to the road. No tires, no traction to take the corners well, no smooth riding.

And Planes

• Neither Boeing nor Airbus makes ALL the parts in their planes themselves. So those planes are second rate planes?

other stuff

• Your computer and cell phone are full of outsourced parts. Does that make them second rate?

None of these comparisons makes any sense. None of these items are solely for the purpose of collection, or solely for the pleasure of playing with them for purely aesthetic desire. Your examples are almost all tools that are made to perform a precise practical function in ge best possible way, whereas pens are often quite similar in terms of performance: a 100 dollars pen can write just as well as a 10.000 one.

 

Moreover, neither of these items is as ridiculously overpriced as our beloved pens. Because let's face it: pens are overpriced Let's look at expensive cars, which might bt the only one of your terms of comparisons to be remotely similar to pens. The cheapest decent car (say, a Tata) costs 8.000 euros. A Ferrari, to take a SUPER-high-end example, costs 30 times more. Yet when it comes to pens, the CHEAPEST "luxury" pen (a Lamy 2000 or a Pilot 74) is already 100-130 times more expensive than a decent writing 1.5 euros Jinhao. If you move into the "Ferrari-level" pens (MB, Namiki, Nakaya, ...) the price difference is 600, 700, 1.000 times the price of a basic pen.

 

Of course, we are willing to pay this price because we're all a bit nuts But for such a price difference, I think I can be excused for expecting spotless quality (whih we often don't get) and a bit of "soul" in what they do: more than just cost-efficient choices

[View from the Loft]

Precisely. And while it may make more economic sense, as consumers we don't really see the benefit that much. It's not that all outsourced nib pens cost less than similar pens with in-house nibs (once you compare models with similar materials or design etc.).

 

It's like a car company that doesn't make the engine. We wouldn't call it a car company, but a customizer, or smth like that.

Not true. There have always been car manufacturers who use engines developed and built by others. The last Defenders (so a Land Rover model while the company is owned by Tata) had a Ford Puma engine (as sported in Transits). Further back, many British cars sported a V8 engine licensed from one of the American manufacturers.

[TassoBarbasso]

So I can understand the OP's uneasiness with a manufacturer that feels nibs and feeds don't make much difference to their customers. But maybe that is the reality of the modern fountain-pen market: appearance sells pens, marketing sells pens, and writing experience is at best a secondary consideration.

ron

Perfectly put. Far better than I did myself. That's exactly the core of the issue, especially since most of our favourite pen makers don't really make items we *need*, but just items we like.

 

I am ok if Bic outsouces the hell out of their pens, because I only need functionality. I'm not ok if Delta outsources the most important part of its pens, since I expect a lot more than just "a tool" from them.

 

Even more so when you consider that function-oriented brands like LAMY actually make their nibs and feeds in house and still manage to price them lower!

[View from the Loft]

Many parts of cars are outsourced today or made in cooperation. There are specialized maunfacturers producing all those little party and gadgets that will be put together as a car and labeld as "Made by". Even whole base assemblies of different brands are identical. Don't trust marketing.

Which enables me to buy a replacement clutch from say Quinton Hazell at a fraction of the price of the same part in the car manufacturer's box.

[TassoBarbasso]

Outsourcing a nib is not an indication of anything other than the fact the nib was outsourced just as making the nib in-house is not an indication of anything but the fact that the nib is made in-house.

 

I cannot understand those who think That outsourcing nibs (or any other component) indicates that a manufacturer feels nibs and feeds (or any other component) don't make much difference to their customers.

Well, to me and others, this is quite self-evident. A previous comment put the reason why in a very clear way.

[TassoBarbasso]

Which enables me to buy a replacement clutch from say Quinton Hazell at a fraction of the price of the same part in the car manufacturer's box.

But you don't buy pens for functionality and cost efficiency. It's two totally different things we're talking about

[ac12]

 

 

None of these comparisons makes any sense. None of these items are solely for the purpose of collection, or solely for the pleasure of playing with them for purely aesthetic desire. Your examples are almost all tools that are made to perform a precise practical function in ge best possible way, whereas pens are often quite similar in terms of performance: a 100 dollars pen can write just as well as a 10.000 one.

Moreover, neither of these items is as ridiculously overpriced as our beloved pens. Because let's face it: pens are overpriced Let's look at expensive cars, which might bt the only one of your terms of comparisons to be remotely similar to pens. The cheapest decent car (say, a Tata) costs 8.000 euros. A Ferrari, to take a SUPER-high-end example, costs 30 times more. Yet when it comes to pens, the CHEAPEST "luxury" pen (a Lamy 2000 or a Pilot 74) is already 100-130 times more expensive than a decent writing 1.5 euros Jinhao. If you move into the "Ferrari-level" pens (MB, Namiki, Nakaya, ...) the price difference is 600, 700, 1.000 times the price of a basic pen.

Of course, we are willing to pay this price because we're all a bit nuts But for such a price difference, I think I can be excused for expecting spotless quality (whih we often don't get) and a bit of "soul" in what they do: more than just cost-efficient choices

 

No, in your original post, you were talking about outsourcing, I see nothing about collectible pens.

 

Now you are bringing price range into the picture.

 

Have you looked at pellet guns? You can get a basic pellet gun for less than $50, or an Olympic grade gun for over $3,000. The average person will not appreciate the difference, but the knowledgeable shooter will. They will both shoot pellets, but you will never find a $50 gun at the Olympics.

 

Have you looked at cameras? They range from a $2 disposable to $40,000+ high end digital. That is a 1:20,000+ ratio. They take pictures. Yes the high end cameras are used more as specialized tools, but people who have the $$$, will buy those cameras, just as people with $$$ will buy high end pens.

 

 

[View from the Loft]

But you don't buy pens for functionality and cost efficiency. It's two totally different things we're talking about

Some pen users do. My Parker 25 was bought some 40 years ago for reasons of practicality and price.

 

I have no objection to a pen manufacturer outsourcing the manufacture of any part to a supplier with sufficient expertise, particularly if the end product is improved as a result.

[TassoBarbasso]

 

 

No, in your original post, you were talking about outsourcing, I see nothing about collectible pens.

 

Now you are bringing price range into the picture.

 

Have you looked at pellet guns? You can get a basic pellet gun for less than $50, or an Olympic grade gun for over $3,000. The average person will not appreciate the difference, but the knowledgeable shooter will. They will both shoot pellets, but you will never find a $50 gun at the Olympics.

 

Have you looked at cameras? They range from a $2 disposable to $40,000+ high end digital. That is a 1:20,000+ ratio. They take pictures. Yes the high end cameras are used more as specialized tools, but people who have the $$$, will buy those cameras, just as people with $$$ will buy high end pens.

 

 

I thought it was clear I was talking about higher end manifacturers. Sorry for not making it explicit, but if you go back to my original post you will see that my examples are all from manufacturers of "fancy" stuff. It wouldnt make sense to complain about Baoer or Jinhao or a Ranga.

 

And even beginners can see the difference between low and high-end cameras, tbh.

[max dog]

A point made in this thread is that if a nib or any other pen component is outsourced, so long as the sum of the parts, ie the pen, performs as designed, does it matter? Personally, it would matter to me. If I were 2nd mortgaging my house for a high end watch, I would go Rolex or Patek over a generic ETA movement sourced fancy brand, even if they are considered just as good. Fortunately there are still some fountain pen companies, and watch companies etc that value the philosophy of originality and doing everything in-house as much as possible, especially the nib which is the heart of the fountain pen.

 

Granted in the electronics and auto industry, it becomes impossible to be 100% in-house and there is a lot of outsourcing going on. That is why you have auto companies recalling millions of cars all the time, and the Samsung fiasco with the exploding batteries etc. They don't have full control of manufacture and rely on a 3rd party, hence the recalls and phones exploding in your pants.

 

Its not a good state of affairs but I suppose a "necessary evil" to balance the books, keep costs down, and make a profit.

 

Can you imagine the fiasco if there was a revelation that John, Paul, George, and Ringo did not write all their songs but were outsourced like the Monkees. It would make a lot of difference to a lot of people even though the songs will always be the same.

Edited April 8, 2017 by max dog

[Hejhox]

Personally I like the fact a number of manufacturers using Jowo or Bock. It means I can swap the nibs/units easily when I fancy a change. In-house has its place, but it when I like the pen but want a slight tweak to how it writes, I more often than not need to switch to a new pen.

[Bluey]

 

Can you imagine the fiasco if there was a revelation that John, Paul, George, and Ringo did not write all their songs but were outsourced like the Monkees. It would make a lot of difference to a lot of people even though the songs will always be the same.

Or Elvis Presley.

I always find it amusing when people call him the "king of rock n roll" and "a genius", not realising that he didn't write any complete songs himself, and almost had half the talent of a monkey. At best, he added a few scraps to an already generic song written for him.

He was nothing other than a singer who popularised other people's songs.

 

As for the Beatles, any and all creativity they had was by George Martin. The Beatles themselves were just an average 60s boy band who could only just barely play their instruments. Creatively, they weren't much better than Elvis on their own (i.e. just the 4 of them). To give them some credit, they did write their own songs, however bad they were and however puerile/superficial their lyrics despite the fact that fans(usually teenage girls) would eternally read deep meanings into their songs that simply weren't there.

 

 

But I digress.....

 

 

 

Granted in the electronics and auto industry, it becomes impossible to be 100% in-house and there is a lot of outsourcing going on.

 

 

In the last few years, there were rumours about Apple buying advance orders of around half a billion $ worth of sapphire for making the screens for one of the latest iphones, although I don't think this deal actually went through. I'm not so up to date with tech nowadays, but I remember reading something about this. Apple usually have immense tight control over their production and ecosystem. I think they go further than most in the tech biz in making things in-house because of their need for a secretive and iron grip over everything that they do.

 

The most direct equivalent in fountain pen companies would be MB.

Edited April 9, 2017 by Bluey

[FarmBoy]

Just for fun, Waterman outsourced nib production at the beginning...

[Freddy]

Pen companies have been outsourcing since the beginning and currently still do..................

 

Nothing new under the sun..................Don't like.................Don't buy..........................................

 

I appreciate that for some folks......'tis a tragedy...........................................................................

 

Thanks for the fascinating read............................Still your friend and his...................................

 

 

 

Fred

Edited April 9, 2017 by Freddy

[Water Ouzel]

None of these comparisons makes any sense. None of these items are solely for the purpose of collection, or solely for the pleasure of playing with them for purely aesthetic desire.

I would argue that high-end cameras and cars (and motorcycles and shotguns and rifles and coins and ...) are fairly commonly acquired for the sole purpose of collection, or the pleasure of using them. How many M-series Leicas are squirreled away in various Japanese collectors' display cases?

 

Even though by far the majority are acquired just to use, just like fountain pens.

[Water Ouzel]

And even beginners can see the difference between low and high-end cameras, tbh.

Don't bet on it.

 

Witness the confusion of a beginning photographer as a serious collector bypasses a new Nikon D810 for an old Ikonta or minty Leica IIIg or Nikon SP or Deardorff.

[Tinjapan]

I would argue that high-end cameras and cars (and motorcycles and shotguns and rifles and coins and ...) are fairly commonly acquired for the sole purpose of collection, or the pleasure of using them. How many M-series Leicas are squirreled away in various Japanese collectors' display cases?

 

Even though by far the majority are acquired just to use, just like fountain pens.

In another thread S.O. posted data from pen companies showing that the number one reason FPs are purchased is 'as a gift'.