The Shame Of Nibs Being Outsourced?

[Flaxmoore]

While it wont stop me from buying a pen from a manufacturer who out sources their nibs (Id love a Yard O Led even if it comes with a Bock nib) I admire the manufacturers who make their nibs in house. Would you like Porsche if they started out sourcing their engines to Toyota or Ford?

 

As something that might reinforce your point, Porsche in 1969 outsourced motors for some of the Porsche 914s (all but the more-expensive 914/6) to Volkswagen. While the cheap VW version was their best seller, even beating the 911 for a year, the 914s (except for the 914/6 which had a Porsche engine) really aren't considered Porsches by enthusiasts, but more of a VW with a Porsche badge.

 

This has even held on the secondary market. 914/6s have held some value, but a 914/4 can be had very cheaply- under 10,000 for a daily driver example.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_914

[Uncial]

I do wonder about the variability of 'own-made' nibs; and it is only wondering as I'm only basing it on personal experience of limited pens and what I read from others. But I've wondered it very recently about Sailor nibs - past experience wasn't to my taste with three dry nibs that had more feedback than I care for, yet.....I picked up one only this week that is pretty close to butter and very wet. I had what I would call an unpleasant Nakaya experience and a nib I had to smooth myself which left me wondering why they couldn't do it, seeing it was what I asked for, yet.......the experience of others attested again and again seemed to be radically different. I've had nothing but joy from Omas nibs, but you do occasionally see a review mention nibs giving trouble. It's rare so far as I can tell, but it is out there. I don't own, nor have I ever tried an Aurora (but I'm deeply tempted) and some reviews talk of nibs with feedback and some talk of butter smooth experiences. The only one that seems to be truly consistent is Pilot, but I have a feeling that now that I've said it, someone will point me to a review of a scratchy, dry nib! (please don't burst my illusory bubble).

[jjlax10]

I see a lot of people's nibs, what happens to them, etc., and the bottom line is it personal preference as with anything in the pen world. For every company making a proprietary nib, there will be another one making pens that take a "standard" nib unit. You can't shame a company if that's their economic model. But if it's something you care about, I agree, vote with your wallet.

 

I will also say this, which is that it's easy to overlook the amount of QC nibs require coming off the line. Add to that the cost of dies, welders, cutters, and everything else you need to make nibs, it's not so easy to launch into nib manufacturing.

[Flaxmoore]

The only one that seems to be truly consistent is Pilot, but I have a feeling that now that I've said it, someone will point me to a review of a scratchy, dry nib! (please don't burst my illusory bubble).

 

My Pilots have always been like oiled ice, the only problem I have is that the gold nibs tend to run broader than their steel counterparts. I have a gold M e95s that writes like a Western M, rather than the fairly fine Pilot steel standard M. I even straightened a Kakuno that met a hardwood floor nib first when someone knocked my file folder off the desk, and it's still smooth and wet. No notable change aside from a barely visible ripple where the nib was bent and put back.

[Astronymus]

While it wont stop me from buying a pen from a manufacturer who out sources their nibs (Id love a Yard O Led even if it comes with a Bock nib) I admire the manufacturers who make their nibs in house. Would you like Porsche if they started out sourcing their engines to Toyota or Ford?

Many parts of cars are outsourced today or made in cooperation. There are specialized maunfacturers producing all those little party and gadgets that will be put together as a car and labeld as "Made by". Even whole base assemblies of different brands are identical. Don't trust marketing.

[ac12]

So then similar for cameras?

• Since Nikon is using a Sony sensor then Nikon is to be downgraded as a camera?
• What of Hasselblad, I think Fuji is making their digital cameras. So downgrade Hasselblad as well?

And cars

• That Porsche, Mercedes, McLaren, Lexus, Penski, etc do not make the tires for their cars, should they all be downgraded? After all it is the tires that connects the car to the road. No tires, no traction to take the corners well, no smooth riding.

And Planes

• Neither Boeing nor Airbus makes ALL the parts in their planes themselves. So those planes are second rate planes?

other stuff

• Your computer and cell phone are full of outsourced parts. Does that make them second rate?

[rwilsonedn]

To me the manufacturing steps that a vendor keeps in house are an indication of what they care about. You tool up and staff up to do the things that you think will differentiate you in the market, and you outsource the stuff that doesn't make much difference.

Yes, on a spreadsheet you can save money by ordering a very specific component from an outsource vendor and then doing exhaustive inspection and adjustment to make sure that you are delivering what you ordered. But in practice, controlling that relationship and the outgoing quality often turns into a bigger problem than bringing the operation in-house. Ask Pelikan.

So I can understand the OP's uneasiness with a manufacturer that feels nibs and feeds don't make much difference to their customers. But maybe that is the reality of the modern fountain-pen market: appearance sells pens, marketing sells pens, and writing experience is at best a secondary consideration.

ron

[encre]

I tend to give a slight preference to "in house" nib fountain pens but then again I tend to prefer the Japanese ink dispensers so I am lucky in that regard. It doesn't bother me when companies say they source x from y. What urks me is if they pretend otherwise.

 

With the state of fountain pens and the dominance of Bock nibs, the reality is, if I excluded all but in house- then my Japanese nibs would be very lonely indeed.

[dcwaites]

While a car company may make the body and engine, it doesn't make all the parts, like suspension and brake components, which are pretty well all outsourced.

 

It's the same with pens. Are we sure that Parker makes their own converters? And what difference does it make if they outsource the nibs, so long as the ones they get are as good as, or better than, what they can do themselves.

 

Nib making is not a simple process, as the Youtube video on Pilot nibs shows.

[jar]

So I can understand the OP's uneasiness with a manufacturer that feels nibs and feeds don't make much difference to their customers. But maybe that is the reality of the modern fountain-pen market: appearance sells pens, marketing sells pens, and writing experience is at best a secondary consideration.

ron

Outsourcing a nib is not an indication of anything other than the fact the nib was outsourced just as making the nib in-house is not an indication of anything but the fact that the nib is made in-house.

 

I cannot understand those who think That outsourcing nibs (or any other component) indicates that a manufacturer feels nibs and feeds (or any other component) don't make much difference to their customers.

Edited April 6, 2017 by jar

[Tinjapan]

There is nothing wrong with something being made in China if it is made well. Not too long ago I did a comparison test of one of my Ft. Madison Sheaffer Preludes and a newer Prelude made in China. The one made in China worked as well and exhibited the same attention to detail as the Ft Madison one and came with a 14K nib at a price that was less than (adjusted) what I paid for the Ft Madison pen when it was new.

 

What we should want are well made products.

+ 1

[Tinjapan]

"Discuss what I believe is the shameful habit of pen companies to manufacture glorified nib holders, while at the same time not bothering to produce the "engine" of the pen: the nib."

 

I once felt the same but now very differently. First, the nib is not the engine, it is the tire. Otherwise just buy the nibs and use them as dip nibs. Very few automobile companies produce their own tires.

 

I don't think that all of the "classic" pen companies started out making their own nibs, or other parts for that matter. Sheaffer, being a jewler, had the knowledge and ability to start making nibs on his own. Conklin? Waterman? Parker? Many started out just as that which you decry, making self filling holders for nibs manufactured by others and already in use. Why reinvent the wheel?

 

If there are companies already making excelent nibs and willing to produce them for you at your specs, it not only makes economic sense but allows these pen companies to come into existance in the first place. The machinery and skill using it would be prohibitively expensive for many.

 

Back to the car analogy, how many companents on any given vehicle are produced in house? Are the rubber parts? Radios? Windshield? Seats? Paint? Electronics? Electrical parts? Battery? Light bulbs? Surely some are but not all.

 

The nib is the tire, the feed the engine, the body the same as a car's body. It is the body where all the creature comforts are. The more of these or the higher the quality you want, the more you pay.

[Tinjapan]

"Yet at the same time, you have lots of tiny companies making dip pens' nibs, and this seems to be doable: the only difference being the iridium point?"

 

That is a huge cost. Kawakubo in Tokyo would like to get into retipping nibs, only one fellow doing so in Japan, outside the big makers. But he said the machine is too expensive for him.

 

Labor costs till figure in to it. Do you think the operator in India is paid the same as the operator in Germany?

[Andrea_R]

I don't really get the point of this thread at all, whoever has a technical/economical background knows well pro&cons of make or buy decision, unfortunately it's a shameful italian habit to idealise everything, even make or buy choices.

 

Until the cost of producing in house nibs can get a company a competitive advantage distinguishing a product (i.e. Aurora nibs' tooth or Smartouch nibs) they'll continue to do it.

Edited April 7, 2017 by Andrea_R

[Tinjapan]

"So I can understand the OP's uneasiness with a manufacturer that feels nibs and feeds don't make much difference to their customers. But maybe that is the reality of the modern fountain-pen market: appearance sells pens, marketing sells pens, and writing experience is at best a secondary consideration.

ron"

 

If they can not produce the quality needed, then outsoursing them to a company that can shows that they do in fact care about this.

 

I am told that a well known and respectable Itslian pen maker used to make their own nibs, having invested in the machinery needed to produce them. Yet, they never got the quality they wished for and have out sourced, to Bock I believe.

[Bluey]

Outsourcing is a necessary evil.

Apart from 2 TWSBIs I've only bought pens from brands than make their own nibs because for me it's all about variety and personality of the nibs, and each one has it's own uniqueness.

 

No point in having 5 pens with nibs all made by Bock/Jowo/[other hypothetical mass market nib producer]; it's akin to buying 5 different cars with different colours but all with the same engine. It would be fine for someone who merely likes to get from A to B but for those who value the journey more than the destination, nope.

Edited April 7, 2017 by Bluey

[Tinjapan]

Is it really the engine that makes the ride enjoyable? It's not the interior, or the sound system or the ride/suspension? Are the tires, which is where the ink hits the paper, made by the automaker?

 

Not an evil, necessary or otherwise.

[praxim]

Given colour is such an important selection point in a car, I would like to know who makes the paint.

[MYU]

Great points being made.

 

Rather than comparing to vehicles, I think watches is better. Because the movement of watches is very often outsourced. ETA is a very well known timepiece movement maker that supplies them to many high end watch companies, like Omega. Meanwhile, there are some houses that still make their own movements like Rolex and Patek Philippe. Some people cater them because of this. Ultimately the movement is a modular component, so anyone could make it, but knowing it was made by the company who made the watch casing is a "good feeling."

 

There will be people who will buy a pen only if the nib is also made by the same company. That's their choice. They have that right to feel good about it too! It's an aesthetic, if anything, especially when nib outsourcing companies produce terrific nibs.

 

But if a nib is outsourced and is stamped with the name of the company who made the pen body, then how would you know the difference if performance is excellent? I don't think it matters. There is one other consideration, though. If a pen company has a reputation for making great nibs and has done so for decades, how would you feel about buying a new pen model of theirs and discover that they didn't make the nib -- no name stamped on it? I wouldn't feel good about that. I have a thing for vintage Japanese fountain pens made by Pilot, Platinum, and Sailor. I expect those company names to be on the nibs. If someone had substituted a nib from a different maker, it would bother me even if the nib wrote just fine. I'm not proud of it... just can't help but feel that way.

[TassoBarbasso]

No, sorry it's not. It is a separate company.

 

Well, it's veeeery close, you will agree.