The Shame Of Nibs Being Outsourced?

[TassoBarbasso]

thank you for your pedantic reply as well, I don't really got the point of your reply, anyone who has ever attended a business school or a university can get the hang of brand management and outsourcing process, the video you are referring to has nothing to do with nibs production. Visconti doesn't make their palladium nibs, are Bock made as you may already know

Looks like you didn't read my post. I'll make it simpler for you: you say that companies are basically brand management, image and little else, hence, you seem to imply, it's naive to expect that they would manufacture anything. I prove you wrong (with Visconti's example) by showing that they DO male stuff. I then add the corollary argument that, as the video shows, these manufacturers are indeed able to do very complex manufacturing processes, and is therefore perfectly legitimate and fine to expect them to also make nibs, since the process is arguably far simpler.

[Andrea_R]

I did read throughout the entire thread, I believe I replied before.

You replied to both the spanish guy and me pointing out the obvius, let me point out what is obvious for me.

 

I'll make it simpler as well, and I'll repeat what jmnav said since it seems like you did not get the hang of it.

 

First things first, there are these thing called scale economies: when a company decides to set up the production of "x" considers 2 types of costs: fixed and variable. The second ones grow with the growth of x while the first ones stay the same in a certain interval. The more I can spread said fixed costs on an high number of x the more convenient the production becomes as the unitary cost decreases.

 

The x cost is influenced also by the R&D and know-how-getting costs.

 

Secondly the added value, the added value is .the process of increasing the perceived value of the product in the eyes of the consumers

It seems pretty clear that Ferrari doesn't make his own bolts, right?Because they have no added value to the final product.

 

Added value and scale economies simplifies pretty well what a company considers when making outsourcing decisions.

 

having said that there are pen making companies whose nibs are what differentiate them from the competitors ( the japanese ones, Aurora), for other companies the added values are pen design and materials and they don't make their own nibs(Omas, Edison, Delta, Conid), there are smaller labour intensive companies that have nor desire nor capabilities in producing their own nibs (Hakase, Fosfor Pens, the beloved Mr Shawn Newton although he tried to make a nib once), there is Visconti that outsourvce his palladium made nibs because I am pretty sure that they do not know how to work a rod of Palladium (does palladium comes in rods?) but make their Tubular in-house for some reason ( I don't work for them as a controller unluckily but I read on the italian fountainpenforum that Mr Del Vecchio himslef worked on the design of the machinery to make this kind of tubular nibs), there are Lamy and Faber Castell which can take advantage of scale economies and mount their stainless steel nibs on a wide range of pens from the entry levels to a step below the premium ones, there's Twsbi that is an assembler like apple and outsource everything.

 

So the point is yes they do make stuff (duh? ) but it may be more convenient to get stuff done from someone else because they make it better and faster, because I don't know how to do it but they can figure it out more easily, because they make it as I would do it but buying from them is less expensive.

 

Oh and let me quote you on that: "It's naive to expect that they would manufacture everything".

Edited May 29, 2017 by Andrea_R

[jmnav]

Hi again:

Thank you for the slightly pedantic explanation, I know very well what a company really is. You don't need to worry about me "properly assimilating" info, but thank you for kindly sharing your supreme knowledge

You are most welcome.

Yet your idea is vastly incorrect:

So my supreme knowledge might not be so supreme, after all?

Anyway, which part?

loads of pen manufacturers pride themselves for actually making their stuff,

So they say.

Or might it be that given that they are already doing it -for whatever reason, they try to manage the perception that this must be a very good thing? After all, a key part of managing (brand) image is differenciating oneself from the competitors, and if it happens that I do something different than them, disregarding its true value, I can use it to increase my brand exclusivity. Things like calling "precious resin" the specific kind of plastic I happen to use, for instance...

often over-using the term "handmade" for any process, and very often releasing videos or articles about their internal manufacturing process, or allowing people to visit their factory to show off their production line.

Almost as if they were "perceptions' management machines", right?

Just google, do a youtube search, or read some pen collectors' magazines searching for "factory visit + name of a pen company" and you'll find several examples of companies that actually make their stuff, often with really complex manufacturing processes. Yet almost none make their own nibs. Just look at this: can we really believe that making a nib is much harder than doing this?

So it can't be that one thing is more complex than the other, right? It is almost as if to achieve their goals, "...sometimes producing something is involved, sometimes not and certainly producing "something" is never a must but only a convenience", right?

 

...It seems my idea might not be vastly incorrect, after all.

Edited May 29, 2017 by jmnav

[TassoBarbasso]

So the point is yes they do make stuff (duh? ) but it may be more convenient to get stuff done from someone else because they make it better and faster, because I don't know how to do it but they can figure it out more easily, because they make it as I would do it but buying from them is less expensive.

 

Oh and let me quote you on that: "It's naive to expect that they would manufacture everything".

 

Thanks, I've done my fair share of economics studies at uni, I too know what economies of scale are, and I also know that sometimes it's more convenient to make others make your stuff. But my point was only minimally about economics. At this point I'm really wondering how to make it clearer...

 

Yes, I do believe there is something vastly wrong about the assumption that "only very large companies can afford to make their own nibs": as we know, this is nonsense. So it's obviously not about economies of scale. Nor is about the complexity or cost of the process, if relatively small companies like Visconti put in place such a show just to make the metal decorations (!) on one of their pens. Nor about "quality": outsourced nibs often suck, let's admit it. Frankly, I don't even care about the economic aspect: good Lord, we're talking about FPs after all, if economics and rational choice had any role in this, we'd be all using ballpoint pens

 

My whole point is about the "sentimental" and "symbolic" value I (and many others) attach to the fact that some producers take the trouble of making their nibs, and only partially about the economics. In other words, if you claim to be selling something special and unique, it shouldn't just be a pricy plastic tube: call me naive and sentimental but I want to see some (bleep) effort being put in that. Especially since we collectors are willing to bestow on such producers a massive degree of respect and awe, which can be indicated only partially by looking at the amount of money we're willing to spend on their products, but even more by looking at the time we spend reviewing them, discussing them, dissecting them, buying products to take care of them, nice paper to enhance the properties of the nibs, nice inks to match the colour of the pen or the writing properties of the nib, the care and love we put in keeping them in working order, sending for repair, restoration, and the like; yet what do we often get for this respect and awe? Usually, this is not returned in the form of equal respect for the buyers: just a massive "let's keep production costs down, down, down, and set the price higher, higher and higher".

[TassoBarbasso]

So they say.

Or might it be that given that they are already doing it -for whatever reason, they try to manage the perception that this must be a very good thing?

 

If you claim they're lying, you need to prove it, and prove that people like this guy who's visited lots of factories is also lying.

 

If you really think it's just a perception that manufacturing a FP is "good", why are you into FPs in the first place?

[jmnav]

If you claim they're lying, you need to prove it, and prove that people like this guy who's visited lots of factories is also lying.

I am claiming that they are in the business of managing perceptions for a profit.

 

Now: it is you the one saying "my point was only minimally about economics [...] is about the "sentimental" and "symbolic" value I (and many others) attach to..."

 

If you really think it's just a perception that manufacturing a FP is "good", why are you into FPs in the first place?

Because sometimes they manage the perceptions they create the way it suits me.

 

On the other hand, I basically don't buy new pens but only vintage ones... from a time when marketing was not as a technically advanced field as it is now and producers themselves didn't know exactly what their business were really about and so, from time to time, they ended up with just good pens.

Edited May 29, 2017 by jmnav

[Bo Bo Olson]

Bock will make if the order is large enough, exactly what a company wants....if it is not in the now normal selection. If you got the cash, and order enough you can have semi-flex. I have old semi-flex Bock nibs.

What the company wishes can be made..............as cheap as they want, or as expensive.

 

There was a thread a long time ago. Two big time name pen folks did a tour of the Bock Factory.

There was a picture showing the inside of the very large Bock mechanical factory from inside at a distance so no trade secrets were given away.

 

I did a tour of the Lamy factory I won in a newspaper contest.

Upstairs we walked through the gold nib section, getting nowhere near the gold. The machines were old fashioned and small.

 

Down stairs was a huge 10m by 4m steel nib making machine. There were some 27 'cuts' on a strip of steel we were shown.....of course many of those cuts were done at once. Part was interesting was the nib had to be heated to bring the tips back together. After tipping which was not open to be looked at....lawyer vs welding light eye damage of the modern tip welding and no need to have that happen in the open air to be blown around. There are videos of MB, Pilot, Aurora and perhaps Pelikan that show that.

A thin diamond dust rubber disc cut the slit.

 

There was a huge paper drum where the steel nibs were tested by sound. Those that didn't sound right were kicked out to the little old lady doing the tweeking. 8 pens at a time....and of the top of my head 1 in 16 needed tweeking. Some were tweek and go, others required two, three or even one needed about 5 tweeks.

That's a heavy duty to of the line machine, to be so good it can tell if a nib is on or off and 8 are tested every 12 or so seconds. Viscontie can't afford that. Bock or JoWo can.

 

Tool and die makers are very expensive. Lamy has the most modern machines in the world, in they don't want to make pens in China. That don't factor in 6 week of vacation and nearly unlimited sick time....union wages....even Viscontie has that problem.

 

 

Fountain pens are a small nitch product with a small margin, even if 'over-expensive' Never forget the advertising Budget.** Viscontie, MB and Pelikan advertise.

 

I don't know if Parker/Waterman does. Lack of advertisement gets Sheaffer bought up by Cross who once made only high status Ball Points. There top management didn't let brand survival get in the way of the bottom line bonus by wasting money on advertising. They had enough lead time to get a different job.

 

**I believe it was Conklin who had the worlds best fountain pen in 1930, who did not advertise because of the Depression until it was too late. By the late '30's the name Conklin was bought up and used on third and fourth tier pens.

 

The money saved by using Bock nibs, can be put into advertisement and the company can survive. The beautiful 'new' Conway Stewart didn't survive. Too bad. I think they use Bock nibs too. A member John Swobada/Oxnard use to grind ...or final tip finish nibs for them.

Edited May 29, 2017 by Bo Bo Olson

[Andrea_R]

 

 

My whole point is about the "sentimental" and "symbolic" value I (and many others) attach to the fact that some producers take the trouble of making their nibs, and only partially about the economics. In other words, if you claim to be selling something special and unique, it shouldn't just be a pricy plastic tube: call me naive and sentimental but I want to see some (bleep) effort being put in that. Especially since we collectors are willing to bestow on such producers a massive degree of respect and awe, which can be indicated only partially by looking at the amount of money we're willing to spend on their products, but even more by looking at the time we spend reviewing them, discussing them, dissecting them, buying products to take care of them, nice paper to enhance the properties of the nibs, nice inks to match the colour of the pen or the writing properties of the nib, the care and love we put in keeping them in working order, sending for repair, restoration, and the like; yet what do we often get for this respect and awe? Usually, this is not returned in the form of equal respect for the buyers: just a massive "let's keep production costs down, down, down, and set the price higher, higher and higher".

Marketing. That is marketing, full stop, you can beat your gums all you want,it is marketing.

[Bluey]

I would say that much of the reason for companies making their nibs in house is about having control over the process, as well as it being economical for them(otherwise they wouldn't do it in the first place).

[Fatalpotato]

After reading through the 10 or so pages of entries in this thread I wish there were more factual entries although the op very much bases his first entry on opinions. I always wondered the actual costs of nib business compared to body work and ink housing. Not to forget though it is always a pleasure to read the opinions of likes of zaddick who I think is a national treasure of this community .

[Bo Bo Olson]

Has Randsombucket folded yet?

Wanted to show anyone who read from the beginning, one of the two airplanes I was talking about.

 

Well, I didn't load up all the pictures from Ransombucket on Imgur, but here is a couple of the pictures of the EC-121, Super Connie..Navy version because of the better picture....the USAF model is a dirty gray.

In @ end of 1970-Jan. '71 North Korean Migs, shot down a Navy model, some three months before I flew a mission there. The crew watched the Migs from lift off to shootdown. They were 120 miles off the coast, in international waters....and we did nothing.

The first is of a Super Constellation with out wing tip tanks.

Edited April 8, 2018 by Bo Bo Olson

[max dog]

After reading through the 10 or so pages of entries in this thread I wish there were more factual entries although the op very much bases his first entry on opinions. I always wondered the actual costs of nib business compared to body work and ink housing. Not to forget though it is always a pleasure to read the opinions of likes of zaddick who I think is a national treasure of this community .

It really depends on what brand you are a fan of. If you are into Viscontis, then most likely you will have no problem with outsourcing to Bock. Bock and Jowo have experience and great resources in making nibs. Do they make the best nibs, likely not, but they do make some good nibs. If you are a fan of brands that make their own nibs, you could argue Visconti, Faber Castell just make Bock nib holders. I am personally biased towards brands that make their nibs in house such as Montblanc, Lamy, Pelikan, and Pilot. There is just something more "worthy", for a lack of a better word this lazy Sunday afternoon, with fountain pen brands that go to the trouble of making their own nibs, versus taking a shortcut to outsourcing them out. Sure, some of the more boutique brands just are too small to invest in the resources to make nibs in house, but that is one of the advantages Pelikan offers over those brands, and why I would choose an M200 over a TWSBI (Jowo nib holder) for example.

Edited April 8, 2018 by max dog

[Fatalpotato]

It really depends on what brand you are a fan of. If you are into Viscontis, then most likely you will have no problem with outsourcing to Bock. Bock and Jowo have experience and great resources in making nibs. Do they make the best nibs, likely not, but they do make some good nibs. If you are a fan of brands that make their own nibs, you could argue Visconti, Faber Castell just make Bock nib holders. I am personally biased towards brands that make their nibs in house such as Montblanc, Lamy, Pelikan, and Pilot. There is just something more "worthy", for a lack of a better word this lazy Sunday afternoon, with fountain pen brands that go to the trouble of making their own nibs, versus taking a shortcut to outsourcing them out. Sure, some of the more boutique brands just are too small to invest in the resources to make nibs in house, but that is one of the advantages Pelikan offers over those brands, and why I would choose an M200 over a TWSBI (Jowo nib holder) for example.

 

You're exactly right imho and that's what I tried to mean saying people's opinions on this topic make little if any progress as opinions can simply be disregarded with a '' I don't think so''. However if we had some insider knowledge of how costly is viscontis heavily modified Pd nibs compared to standard Bock nibs or vs the in house Aurora nibs, a more substantive argument could be made.

[Bo Bo Olson]

In my signature is info on Bock.

 

Who makes the 'best' nib?

Best nib for what flex rate?

What width?

 

MB makes a nice slightly stubby 'Springy' nib, nice tine bend, only 2 X tine spread when mashed. It is now a fatter nib than it once was. It is butter smooth. Is that the best nib? The basic Falcon is a Springy nib.

The Springy nib I like most is the new Lamy Imporium's nib. IMO better than MB.....unfortunately....not quite semi-flex, but more tine bend and spread ease than MB.

That could be the best nib............... It is nothing like any Lamy nib I know of. Not only that they have so many choices of different colors on those nibs.

 

The 200's nib is one of the last of the regular flex nibs, as far as I know. Eventually, I grew to like regular flex nibs. Good Shading ink nibs. It is semi-vintage/vintage width still. I think it better than the modern 400/600/800......but others wouldn't agree. It is not 'gold' or it is too cheap to be good.

 

The new 400/600 semi-nail and nail 800 are fatter and blobbier, with baby bottom problems, on those butter smooth harder to break nibs. They are butter smooth. Some folks love butter smooth, others want less butter on their slick papers.

The 1000 is a semi-flex. Aurora has come back to making that again after a decade or so making more common flex nibs.

 

The Japanese make narrower nibs, so would be the nib of choice for EF, XXF and narrower. In very few complain about those, they might be best. Sailor is the Fat one, Pilot the skinny one. Lots of complaints about Sailor nibs.....few about Pilot.

They don't make a true B....their B is only an M.

 

31 companies use a Bock nibs made to their specializations or they picked one of the Bock standard versions. Viscontie is one of them. And it's nibs are not admired. Delta's was.

 

JoWo is relatively new and has come a long ways in a short time, so they must offer a cheaper nib than Bock to take that much market share so quickly....

There has been debate of which is better. I don't have a JoWo nib. I have basically old pens.

 

Oh, to me a nail's a nail, be it gold or steel and if smoothed well, all are equal....my steel Townsend is no better or worse than my 18 K Lamy Persona; nor my '36 Canadian factory stubbed BB nail on my '38 Vac, or my P-51.

Is a Parker P-75 semi-nail better than my modern 605 semi-nail. Well, it's narrower as was that time frame and was not baby bottomed. The baby bottomed 605 is now a butter smooth 1.0 stub.

 

I still like my semi-flex nibs.

My 'best' Wet Noodle is a Soennecken and boy was I shocked :yikes:By the end of Soennecken, Bock made the nibs and in the '50's Soennecken was perhaps the finest nib made. I don't know when Soennecken went to Bock.....it could have been at the End....in the late '50 start of '60's.

 

Best nib....the 1914-1930 Kaweco nibs. From 1900-1914 Kaweco used the US Morton nib, until they bought the machines and imported American workers to teach the Germans how to make the best nib in the world.......then........nib tipping was perfected in the US during WW2.

And tipping was lumpy and chunks fell out pre WW2.

[Fatalpotato]

In my signature is info on Bock.

 

Who makes the 'best' nib?

Best nib for what flex rate?

What width?

 

MB makes a nice slightly stubby 'Springy' nib, nice tine bend, only 2 X tine spread when mashed. It is now a fatter nib than it once was. It is butter smooth. Is that the best nib? The basic Falcon is a Springy nib.

The Springy nib I like most is the new Lamy Imporium's nib. IMO better than MB.....unfortunately....not quite semi-flex, but more tine bend and spread ease than MB.

That could be the best nib............... It is nothing like any Lamy nib I know of. Not only that they have so many choices of different colors on those nibs.

 

The 200's nib is one of the last of the regular flex nibs, as far as I know. Eventually, I grew to like regular flex nibs. Good Shading ink nibs. It is semi-vintage/vintage width still. I think it better than the modern 400/600/800......but others wouldn't agree. It is not 'gold' or it is too cheap to be good.

 

The new 400/600 semi-nail and nail 800 are fatter and blobbier, with baby bottom problems, on those butter smooth harder to break nibs. They are butter smooth. Some folks love butter smooth, others want less butter on their slick papers.

The 1000 is a semi-flex. Aurora has come back to making that again after a decade or so making more common flex nibs.

 

The Japanese make narrower nibs, so would be the nib of choice for EF, XXF and narrower. In very few complain about those, they might be best. Sailor is the Fat one, Pilot the skinny one. Lots of complaints about Sailor nibs.....few about Pilot.

They don't make a true B....their B is only an M.

 

31 companies use a Bock nibs made to their specializations or they picked one of the Bock standard versions. Viscontie is one of them. And it's nibs are not admired. Delta's was.

 

JoWo is relatively new and has come a long ways in a short time, so they must offer a cheaper nib than Bock to take that much market share so quickly....

There has been debate of which is better. I don't have a JoWo nib. I have basically old pens.

 

Oh, to me a nail's a nail, be it gold or steel and if smoothed well, all are equal....my steel Townsend is no better or worse than my 18 K Lamy Persona; nor my '36 Canadian factory stubbed BB nail on my '38 Vac, or my P-51.

Is a Parker P-75 semi-nail better than my modern 605 semi-nail. Well, it's narrower as was that time frame and was not baby bottomed. The baby bottomed 605 is now a butter smooth 1.0 stub.

 

I still like my semi-flex nibs.

My 'best' Wet Noodle is a Soennecken and boy was I shocked :yikes:By the end of Soennecken, Bock made the nibs and in the '50's Soennecken was perhaps the finest nib made. I don't know when Soennecken went to Bock.....it could have been at the End....in the late '50 start of '60's.

 

Best nib....the 1914-1930 Kaweco nibs. From 1900-1914 Kaweco used the US Morton nib, until they bought the machines and imported American workers to teach the Germans how to make the best nib in the world.......then........nib tipping was perfected in the US during WW2.

And tipping was lumpy and chunks fell out pre WW2.

That's a cool factory that bock uses to make nibs. I wonder if other materials are pressed the same way like gold? Steel probably needs a lot more pressure to bend compared to gold.

[Corona688]

So Boeing and Airbus are to be shamed because they do not make the ENGINES for their planes.

It takes 20 years or more of hard work to design a decent aircraft no matter who makes the engines. That's a bit harder than designing a handle. Get me a lathe and a ballpoint refill and I could be a penmaker in 5 minutes.

[jekostas]

 

 

The Japanese make narrower nibs, so would be the nib of choice for EF, XXF and narrower. In very few complain about those, they might be best. Sailor is the Fat one, Pilot the skinny one. Lots of complaints about Sailor nibs.....few about Pilot.

They don't make a true B....their B is only an M.

 

 

This is absolutely untrue. Pilot's Broad nibs are very similar in nib width to Western makers. Pilot also offers Double and Triple Broad (Coarse) nibs, and Platinum has a Double Broad (Coarse) as well.

[AL01]

It takes 20 years or more of hard work to design a decent aircraft no matter who makes the engines. That's a bit harder than designing a handle. Get me a lathe and a ballpoint refill and I could be a penmaker in 5 minutes.

 

True.

 

+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1

[Runnin_Ute]

In addition, I wonder how many companies that make their own nibs, have a standing contract with one of the big nib makers to produce nibs in case some/all of their equipment goes down. I would imagine it happens more than we would think. The contract could be structured in such a way that a certain number of nibs are guaranteed to the nib maker over the life of the contract or some other period of time.

 

Is it nice that there are companies out there that produce their own nibs in house? Sure. I like the fact that the companies have options available to them, whether on a contingency basis or regular production basis. Not everyone (as previously been established) that most firms, for one reason or another choose to not do them in house. I have pens from Lamy, Pelikan, Platinum, Pilot, Esterbrook, Parker, Waterman, True Writer, TWSBI, Jinhao, Kaweco and Noodler's.

 

Esterbrook was a "pen" company when the "pen" was the nib alone. (dip nibs) So yeah, they made their own nibs. I only have two modern Parker pens (IM), all my 45's are pre 1980 pens, and most are pre 1970. Plus a 1948 51 Demi Vac and a early 50's 51 Special. I would bet most if not all the 45 nibs are in house production. True Writer uses Schmidt nibs. So most of my pens are probably in house production. But I am not that concerned about where it was made only that it does it's job the way it is supposed to.

[Bo Bo Olson]

I said their B is more an M...not their BB, or BBB. (The M could be a fat M...or a regular M, depending on which Western company is compared to in the charts.....Aurora B could be narrower than most other Western nibs, close to Japanese width from my reading).

""Pilot also offers Double and Triple Broad (Coarse) nibs, and Platinum has a Double Broad (Coarse) as well."

So BB would be a Pelikan B or an MB B? BBB a Pelikan BB?

The Japanese nibs are narrower than modern MB-Pelikan-Lamy width marked pens. With as I've read, Sailor being fatter than Pilot.

 

I have read a good poster was making a survey of French Parker/Waterman widths (Parker Chinese nibs would have to be separate) vs Japanese but don't remember the results...if finished.

Other than Parker/Waterman is now narrower than MB-Pelikan-Lamy; which is quite possible if Parker's now Euro nibs are now just stamped Parker and are actually the narrower Waterman nibs. Would make since having only one nib production line outside of brand stamping.

 

Parker use to be wider than Sheaffer and Sheaffer also wider than semi-vintage Pelikan. And Waterman narrower on the whole than Pelikan back when Pelikan was narrower than both Parker and Sheaffer. The Pelikan EF was narrower back then than Waterman, or the others, but that is older nibs so don't count.

(Outside the 200, modern Pelikan nibs are 1/2 a width fatter than they use to be.)

Don't know if he included Indonesian Sheaffer that now belongs to Cross or Chinese Cross's nib width.

Edited April 9, 2018 by Bo Bo Olson