The Shame Of Nibs Being Outsourced?

[TassoBarbasso]

Hi All,

 

I've always bestowed special respect to pen makers who manufacture their own nibs. While I can understand that a small, one-man-show company that makes handmade pens (Hakase, Edison, ...) might not have the resources to manufacture nibs in house, or could do so only at ridiculously high prices (like Romillo), I don't see any reason why larger pen manufacturers shouldn't make their nibs in-house.

 

If they don't, they're not in the pen business, as far as I'm concerned: they're just "plastic nib holders" manufacturers.

 

That's why most of my pen purchases in recent years have been either from Aurora, Pilot, Sailor, and others who make their own nibs, or from companies like Visconti or OMAS that customize the nibs they receive quite heavily before using them. I've also always respected Parker and Waterman for still manufacturing their nibs in-house, even though I don't buy from them since their pens are either too expensive, or don't captivate my aesthetic preferences.

 

However, I've recently stumbled across a couple of pictures of the latest offering in the Duofold range, and I've noticed that the current nibs look a lot different from the one on the Duofold mosaic I got as a present a few years ago. They're more slender, and look suspiciously like JoWo nibs!

 

The purpose of this post is therefore double:

• Discuss what I believe is the shameful habit of pen companies to manufacture glorified nib holders, while at the same time not bothering to produce the "engine" of the pen: the nib.

• Figure out if Parker also jumped on the bandwagon of nib outsourcing and is now getting its nibs from JoWo or Bock. Anyone who has info on this is more than welcome to share it.

cheers!

Fabio

 

[jar]

I have always respected manufacturers that outsource their nibs. It makes sense economically as well as from a product positions.

[zaddick]

I see no shame in outsourcing. It is simply a business decision with a cost/benefit analysis. Sometimes firms like OMAS and Pelikan switch between in-house and outsourcing.

 

Also, I think in your desire to avoid companies that do not make their own pen, you may have missed the fact that folks like Bock will customize the characteristics of a nib fairly dsignificantly if ordered in large quantities. A Delta #8 and a Danitrio #8 and a Lambrou Pens #8 are all based ont he same Bock A380 18K template but are all very different in how they behave. Well, maybe you did not miss it since you noted Visconti and OMAS, but maybe have avoided trying others due to your preferences.

 

I tend to call the nib the soul of the pen and the feed the heart. Just to add another analogy to the mix.

 

I know less about Jowo pen modifications, but i assume they would be open to similar modifications beyond branding.

[TassoBarbasso]

Also, I think in your desire to avoid companies that do not make their own pen, you may have missed the fact that folks like Bock will customize the characteristics of a nib fairly dsignificantly if ordered in large quantities. A Delta #8 and a Danitrio #8 and a Lambrou Pens #8 are all based ont he same Bock A380 18K template but are all very different in how they behave. Well, maybe you did not miss it since you noted Visconti and OMAS, but maybe have avoided trying others due to your preferences.

 

That's a good point, but yes, I did notice I'm OK with highly customized nibs, as long as there's at least some thought in what they do.

[TassoBarbasso]

It makes sense economically as well as from a product positions.

 

But then, shouldn't we just want all manufacturers to make everything in China?

[Mrpink]

 

But then, shouldn't we just want all manufacturers to make everything in China?

Yeah same nib on all products. Its cost effective. May aswell use the same mould. Im with you on the in house nibs. Its basically the same 3 companies all over producing them. Edited April 5, 2017 by Mrpink

[TassoBarbasso]

Yeah same nib on all products. Its cost effective. May aswell use the same mould. Im with you on the in house nibs. Its basically the same 3 companies all over producing them.

 

Precisely. And while it may make more economic sense, as consumers we don't really see the benefit that much. It's not that all outsourced nib pens cost less than similar pens with in-house nibs (once you compare models with similar materials or design etc.).

 

It's like a car company that doesn't make the engine. We wouldn't call it a car company, but a customizer, or smth like that.

[jar]

 

But then, shouldn't we just want all manufacturers to make everything in China?

There is nothing wrong with something being made in China if it is made well. Not too long ago I did a comparison test of one of my Ft. Madison Sheaffer Preludes and a newer Prelude made in China. The one made in China worked as well and exhibited the same attention to detail as the Ft Madison one and came with a 14K nib at a price that was less than (adjusted) what I paid for the Ft Madison pen when it was new.

 

What we should want are well made products.

[Bo Bo Olson]

Bock makes very good nibs....and what ever the company wants it gets.

Bock made Pelikan nibs for a while...the 1000s nib being the last taken back to in house...if.

JoWo is rather new...don't have any on my semi-vintage and vintage pens.

 

There is somewhere on here, a link or an article of two well known fountain pen personalities who were allowed to tour the ultra modern, huge Bock factory. No pictures of course. A couple of stills were all that was given.

 

If I am coming back from Frankfurt or Darmstart the Bock Factory is off to one side of the Autobahn near Heidelberg. It is BIG. At least 50-70 yards by 100 or 130, and three stories high.

I guess you can google it.

Just did. Peter Bock. I guess the other buildings are 'new' in it's been a couple of years since I drove that direction....and remember it more as one building. Don't know if the other building belong to Bock or not. I have it in memory as a single stand alone building.

 

 

In 1932 Degussa bought up Osmia's nib factory (1922...with the patented osmium tipping which was the best in the world in 1922) and made the exact same great nibs for Osmia or other nibs for others...in there were some 125 pen makers in German in the '30s....many mom&pop small put the parts together 'factories' for the local Department store and corner pen shops. They also made like Bock, cheaper nibs for them that didn't want Osmia quality.

Rupp also started in 1922. Both stopped in the '70...could be later. I did read once it was later for Degussa.

Bock started making nibs in 1938.

Heidelberg was the pen capitol of the world back then. Kaweco, back when it really was a great pen...Original Reform, Herlitz which made Luxor, Mercedes and Osmia...and even Faber Castel before they bought up Osmia in 1951 or so. Took them 6-8 years to really ruin Osmia by erasing it, in Osmia was first class and FC was second tier.

 

Bock makes the nib the company wants...or offers them them at a rate cheaper than they can make. One must have die and tool makers 'in house', many machines that thin the gold to the proper thickness. I'm sure steel is rolled to an exact width by the steel company. The price of small lot steel, one ton is very high.

Then it has to be taken off the ribbon roll and worked.

 

There is a one or two man company that makes the nibs as they should be in Spain....by hand, and they are making top of the line custom pens. The nib is fitted to you. Like a hand made pair of shoes. Did I mention $$$$$$$$$.

 

I've seen a video of an Indian pen company's nib making. Using what looks like 1910 machinery. Your basic Noodler nibs. In House.

 

Once banks had less to say about things than now. Once there was a thing called dividends....now it's only the bottom line bonus. And bankers worship the golden calf of the bottom line bonus.

 

By the way all that Iridium point....German....when most are not ...now...made in Germany, is the 'iridium' factory is in Germany someplace. Because that is made in Germany, China is allowed to state Iridium point Germany.

 

There were dirt cheap nibs made in the '50?-60-80's made in Germany with that on them. I have a source but are not worth E2.00 a piece to me. An old newspaper, school notebook and now just Lamy fountain pens. They have an old many compartmentalized glass covered box with nibs, including ornamental dip pens. I did buy the ones that looked best, back when I was real 'noobie'.

 

I had both a gold and a steel Bock nib that was quality...compared to that stuff.

Edited April 5, 2017 by Bo Bo Olson

[Astronymus]

Outsourcing says nothing about quality.

Edited April 5, 2017 by Astron

[max dog]

While it wont stop me from buying a pen from a manufacturer who out sources their nibs (Id love a Yard O Led even if it comes with a Bock nib) I admire the manufacturers who make their nibs in house. Would you like Porsche if they started out sourcing their engines to Toyota or Ford?

Edited April 6, 2017 by max dog

[TassoBarbasso]

There is nothing wrong with something being made in China if it is made well. Not too long ago I did a comparison test of one of my Ft. Madison Sheaffer Preludes and a newer Prelude made in China. The one made in China worked as well and exhibited the same attention to detail as the Ft Madison one and came with a 14K nib at a price that was less than (adjusted) what I paid for the Ft Madison pen when it was new.

 

What we should want are well made products.

What i was contesting is not the place where they are made (I love my Chinese made Cross!) but the idea of standardization. I picked China just as an example, but I could have said "shouldn't we want all our pens to be manufactured in the same factory?"

[Chrissy]

In these days where resources count for so much, and factories in many Countries can't necessarily have all of the land or materials that they used to have, it makes sense that if you have factories that produce nibs, then those resources work more efficiently if they produce millions rather than thousands. Therefore pen manufacturers don't necessarily need to go to the additional expense of making nibs, if there is a nearby factory that already does that job.

 

Why would a pen manufacturer go to all of the additional expense of making nibs when they don't need to? If doing this would cost them so much more in equipment and fuel, than buying well made nibs from a specialist nib maker? And it might price their pens so much higher at the end of the day, that they risked going out of business.

 

It's not shame. It's business sense.

[TassoBarbasso]

Just to be clear. I'm not necessarily saying that outsourced nibs are worse (Bock nibs are bad in my experience, but JoWo ones are great). I'm just contesting the habit of pen companies to pass such an important, soul-defining element of their work to someone else.

 

It would be as if Lamborghini outsourced their engines to Porsche. Of course it's still top-notch, but it's just... not car-making anymore. It's just building the shell that will house the engine.

 

 

 

 

Oh, btw, any news on Parker's nibs? (the second part of my opening post)

Edited April 6, 2017 by TassoBarbasso

[Zeeppo]

 

This guy here is a Bock nib made for Nemosine. These guys are a small pen company here in Pittsburgh. I doubt they could made a pen for under a hundred bucks if they made their own nibs. As it is they make a great and unique pen and don't charge an arm and a leg for it. Throw one of these nibs on a Jinhao and she writes like a three hundred dollar pen.

 

How many fire roast nibs are out there?

 

 

[praxim]

I have a recollection that Bock nibs are more highly regarded than JoWo here?

 

Incidentally, Porsche and Lamborghini engines are made under the aegis of VW-Audi, which may be the Newell-Rubbermaid of Waterman-Parker's endeavours.

 

I drive a car made under the VW-Audi umbrella and write occasionally with a modern Newell-Rubbermaid pen, to my great satisfaction (especially the car ). Ignoring the pens for a moment, I know that my car shares a basic platform and many components with brands which sell for less (and more) but this is not merely badge engineering, it is selection of components, tuning, and building in a separate factory to make the car demonstrably a different beast*, and some of what goes into all of these is outsourced anyway.

 

* whether this is worth it is a personal decision.

[jar]

What i was contesting is not the place where they are made (I love my Chinese made Cross!) but the idea of standardization. I picked China just as an example, but I could have said "shouldn't we want all our pens to be manufactured in the same factory?"

But the fact that Bock made a given nib does not imply standardization. Makers can give Bock specifications for the nibs they buy, very detailed specifications including composition, dimensions, shape, contours, decoration and even finishing and testing. In addition nibs can be further finished in-house.

 

A great example might be Nakaya. The basic nibs they use are based on the Platinum #3776 Century nib and sourced from Platinum yet every nib on a Nakaya goes through setup and adjustment by one of two in-house experts and often a third testing by the dealer that sells the pen.

 

What we should want are well made products.

[TassoBarbasso]

But the fact that Bock made a given nib does not imply standardization. Makers can give Bock specifications for the nibs they buy, very detailed specifications including composition, dimensions, shape, contours, decoration and even finishing and testing. In addition nibs can be further finished in-house.

 

A great example might be Nakaya. The basic nibs they use are based on the Platinum #3776 Century nib and sourced from Platinum yet every nib on a Nakaya goes through setup and adjustment by one of two in-house experts and often a third testing by the dealer that sells the pen.

 

What we should want are well made products.

 

Yeah but Nakaya is Platinum's subsidiary

[TassoBarbasso]

This guy here is a Bock nib made for Nemosine. These guys are a small pen company here in Pittsburgh. I doubt they could made a pen for under a hundred bucks if they made their own nibs.

 

I wouldn't be sure; Aurora, Lamy and others all make pens with in-house steel nibs that cost far less than a hundred bucks. I guess this raises a lot of interesting questions though:

• Is it really that expensive to make a nib?
• What kind of production stages go into that, that makes it so prohibitively expensive?
• Small indian penmakers seem to be able to do it in-house; smaller European or American ones, however, don't seem to be; why? Don't tell me it's the lower labour cost, because by looking at videos of how nibs are made, it's mostly an automated task.
• Yet at the same time, you have lots of tiny companies making dip pens' nibs, and this seems to be doable: the only difference being the iridium point?
• How large does a company have to be so that economies of scale make it affordable to make nibs in house?
• And is it really a matter of economies of scale? Massive companies like Faber Castell outsource, while far smaller ones like Aurora make in-house.

I'm not questioning the economic logic in doing this; I'm more concerned with the "romantic" added value of knowing that people are behind the very core of their product, and are not just making nib holders.

[jar]

 

Yeah but Nakaya is Platinum's subsidiary

No, sorry it's not. It is a separate company.