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Question About Origins Of Blackbirds


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I have always assumed that Blackbirds were purely British pens, excluding the fact that for some time during the WWII they were made in the US. Is it true? When was the first Blackbird made?

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I cannot tell you when the first Blackbirds appeared, certainly I have seen those stamped "Made in USA during the war" Mabie Todd was not alone here: I have an Onoto here in front of me carrying the same inscription.

 

I suppose that most factories here in England were turned over to the production of war materiel and those firms that had American operaitons switched production over there. I have also a dome-topped Swan SF2 which is stamped "Mabe Todd & Co London - Made in USA"!

 

Until Mr Ste[hen Hull completes his magnum opus on Mabie Todd I suppose I shall not know the answer to your quesiton. Sorry!

 

Cob

fpn_1428963683__6s.jpg “The pen of the British Empire” fpn_1423349537__swan_sign_is.jpg


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Thank you Cob! I was hoping there was a definitive answer to my question. I noticed that the most often quoted the earliest date is 1914 and I thought that it came from a reliable source. I guess that the period between 1914 and 1918 is indeed the most probable, although I wouldn't be surprised if the Blackbirds were introduced a bit earlier, maybe around 1910 or 1911. Someone once mentioned 1907, but I find it rather unlikely.

 

By the way, using the word 'purely' was rather unfortunate. I only meant that the Blackbird model was likely introduced by the British branch. In my opinion, choosing the common Blackbird for a model name makes more sense here in Britain and Europe than in the US. However, there are early Blackbirds clearly made by the parent company in the US without any reference to the WWI. Now, the question is whether it is possible that they predate pens made in Britain or not.

 

Cob, I hope you don't mind me asking, but the 1921 is usually quoted as the year of introducing lever fillers in the UK, several years after the US. Is it a fact or another assumption?

Edited by birchtine
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coming back to Stephen Hull's book 'The English Fountain Pen Industry' ...........there are a couple of pages with information relating to the name 'Blackbird' which might be of interest here.............. IIRC then this name appears to have been used on a stylo just prior to its use on a f.p., but that earlier use of the name wasn't by M.T & Co.

 

Burge Warren & Ridgley were London based manufacturers from 1880 to c. 1946, and they announced in 1910 they 'd been appointed licensed makers and selling agents for the Red Robin and Blackbird stylos and Nosak self-filling pen made in the U.S.A by John Blair of New York.

Stephen Hull doesn't comment on whether the name Blackbird was registered as a trade mark by either BWR or John Blair - in the way that these became trade marked names registered in both the States and U.K. by MT& Co for the fountain pens that we all know ............ so, if the name wasn't registered as a trade mark by BW or John Blair, did someone at MT think Blackbird, an already existing pen name, worth plagiarising?

 

In the late C19, BW appear to have been contracted by Bradbury Wilkinson - large wholesale manufacturing stationers in London - to manufacture a 'copy'? of Duncan MacKinnon's stylo, and although I'm not clever enough to unravel details of the connection, there is certainly a link between BW, Bradbury Wilkinson and MT., allowing for the possibility that somehow use of the name Blackbird flowed eventually to MT, from these other companies.

IIRC from the research of Stephen Hull's book, then the word Blackbird was first used, by MT, on a f.p. in 1911 - something like a year after MT became British owned. This was probably an ED with a slip-cap in 1911 The use of Swan as a brand name goes back some long time before this date.

The names Swan and Blackbird appear to have been registered as trade marks both sides of the pond, but not so sure about Jackdaw - possibly not registered, but then since my comment is based on a survey of just one pen, then probably unreliable.

 

Looking at my couple of dozen Swan f.ps. it appears that none of these has a nib with an image of this royal bird, and I've several Blackbird pens, early and later all with their original nibs, and of these only one carries an image of a bird, which presumably is supposed to be a Blackbird, but looks more like an ugly duckling, or is it supposed to be a Swan ............ as attached. This nib is probably c. 1950s, and the pen is of lesser quality than my earlier Blackbirds, and the imprint shows simply BLACKBIRD - ENGLAND.

 

Are there Swans and other Blackbirds with nib imprints showing these birds? Does anyone know what the u/c letter H stands for please?

Edited by PaulS
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Well you have done much more research than I.. I have David Moak's book Mabie in America, and looking yesterday I couldn't find a reference to Blackbirds in it - plenty of Swallows!

 

And you may know that there were also Kiwis and Starlings from Mabie Todd.

 

Your pictured nib is indeed late - possibly a Biro Swan job - a bit cheeky having a Swan on the nib and then stamping it Blackbird. As for the letter no idea at all. I have had a number of them. I have in front of me a Swan 3, stamped H, fitted into a Waterman's 515. It's a sort of soft stub and has the half-moon breather with the Swan around it. I once had a Jackdaw fitted with a Blackbird nib marked G - that was quite a nice nib - I have also seen D nibs. It's a mystery to me! Not all the "lettered" nibs are late ones - my Blackbird G was of the early pattern.

 

Sorry not to be of more help.

 

Cob

fpn_1428963683__6s.jpg “The pen of the British Empire” fpn_1423349537__swan_sign_is.jpg


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quote ................ "And you may know that there were also Kiwis and Starlings from Mabie Todd." ......... no, have to say I didn't - so thanks for that information.

 

Have to admit that my research wasn't real research :blush: - as is often the case I had simply made an effort to precis (sorry for the missing accent) much detailed work by Stephen Hull - to whom of course all credit should go - although the bit about owning various Swan, Blackbird and Jackdaw pens remains true.

However, my suggestion as to how the name Blackbird might have migrated to MT, was entirely my own conjecture :D

 

Shame we can't nail the meaning of those nib letters - fingers crossed someone else may yet know.

 

thanks for the help.

Edited by PaulS
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I remember there was a thread somewhere regarding the meaning of the letters on these later pens but ended with no clear agreement. It was suggested that the letters may follow the German naming, but if it is true the nibs with D are not as hard as one would expect from manifold nibs. However, even if there is no German connection, it seems the pens were exported quite extensively since they are often offered by German, Belgian and Dutch sellers. In my opinion these letters likely stand for nib types in another language. Also pens from the 20s and 30s marked H tend to be more common in the continental Europe than the UK.

 

Going back to the first Blackbirds, I have just had another closer look at my pens and some of them were made before the British branch become independent in ?1914. They have imprint MTCo (not Ltd) and were made on both sides of the pond. Now the question is how far back in time we can go with dating them.

 

I was not aware that the word Blackbird was used by the MT as early as 1911, so many thanks for Steven Hull's book reference. This actually makes a lot of sense to me. I was suspecting that Blackbirds were introduced around the time of the first Swan Safety Screw cap but I couldn't find anything to support the idea. I also like the 'conjecture' that the name somehow drifted from Bradbury Wilkinson, and I would not be surprised if someone proves it to be a fact.

 

Many thanks PaulS and Cob!!!

Edited by birchtine
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I was puzzling over the MT nib letters in this thread, but didn't arrive at any conclusion.

 

Vintage dip nibs sometimes had letter codes, too. E.g. these Edward Todds:

 

http://i.imgur.com/DHTOcAX.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/utQ9Ep9.jpg

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I'm probably flying a kite completely, but is there any possibility that the top example might carry C for calligraphy, and might A be for accountant - I notice the positioning of these letters is placed differently to the smaller letters we've been discussing, which are imprinted at the lower end of the nib.

 

Some time in the late 1930s or 1940s, Parker produced a range of nibs for the Duofold, which carried the letters N, P, Y and Z. It's apparently not certain what these letters designated, but there's a line of thought that suggests they might have indicated the group or company that made the nib, thus allowing for quality control rejects to be returned to a specific source.

Wonder if M.T. had something similar in mind with their lettering.

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Some discussion of the Parker letters here: http://fountainpenboard.com/forum/index.php?/topic/4650-parker-duofold-p-nib-question/

 

I'd have thought that if it was for in-house quality control, they would have stamped the letter less prominently on the underside of the nib, or at least lower down where it would be hidden by the section. Why make the letter so visible to the customer unless it was intended to mean something to the customer, along the lines of Waterman's "colour" nibs?

http://i.imgur.com/utQ9Ep9.jpg

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appreciate the link - thanks. I have an early (possibly Mk. 1) Newhaven Victory with nib showing u/c R, where the projecting leg of the letter is half length only - of course it could be a poor imprint, but it does look as though it's appearance was intentional. I did query this some time back on goodwriterspens with Deb. Gibson, but it remains a mystery.

Edited by PaulS
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I was puzzling over the MT nib letters in this thread, but didn't arrive at any conclusion.

 

Vintage dip nibs sometimes had letter codes, too. E.g. these Edward Todds:

 

http://i.imgur.com/DHTOcAX.jpg

Those are so lovely! Edward Todd & Co produced beautiful pens.

 

Cob

fpn_1428963683__6s.jpg “The pen of the British Empire” fpn_1423349537__swan_sign_is.jpg


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Thanks, Cob. I have a few Edward Todd & Co fountain pens, but I much prefer their dip pens for elegance and expressiveness.

http://i.imgur.com/utQ9Ep9.jpg

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