Swan Eternal Nib Fallacy Regarding Flex

[eckiethump]

It is believed by many lesser educated Swan aficionados that Eternal pens do not have flex. I have a Swan E448, that I was surprise a few years ago on receipt from Australia, to experience that it had flex.

 

One of the largest Swan collections is held in the UK by Charles Whitehead and in discussion with him a good few years ago, he said routinely these pens would have flex.

 

I bring this up having had the conversation at the Northern Pen show, with I think possibly an FPN Admin and shown them my example of the nib in question.

[eckiethump]

It is believed by many lesser educated Swan aficionados that Eternal pens do not have flex. I have a Swan E448, that I was surprise a few years ago on receipt from Australia, to experience that it had flex.

 

One of the largest Swan collections is held in the UK by Charles Whitehead and in discussion with him a good few years ago, he said routinely these pens would have flex.

 

I bring this up having had the conversation at the Northern Pen show, with I think possibly an FPN Admin and shown them my example of the nib in question.

[Cob]

I suppose I suppose i have had about half a dozen - maybe eight Eternals - I have two nibs still in my spares box a 2 and a 3.

 

All were absolute nails! I recall trying a No 8 at the last London Pen Show; that was rigid too.

 

Of course I do appreciate that half a dozen or so nibs hardly makes a robust sample, but there it is. I certainly avoid Eternals like the plague these days, unless they happen to be installed in a pen I especially like.

 

Cob

Edited April 3, 2017 by Cob

[eckiethump]

Yes, I would not consider 6 nibs and 1 #8 to be sufficient to give a cultured view on the overall brand and model.

 

Not when there are people out there, you can meet at UK pen shows who have been handling these items for over 40 years.

[MarcShiman]

At last year's London show I bought a clipless 844B with a very flexible eternal nib. They are definitely out there, although the majority of the ones that I've found come from the early British eternal nibs. The most flexible Eternal nibs on late 20's / early 30's American pens are semi-flex at best.

[PaulS]

well, I'm most certainly a lesser educated aficionado, in a variety of brands and not just Swan - but can say most definitely that my one and only leverless with No. 6 ETERNAL nib is very firm and lacks any flex - perhaps it's the smaller ETERNAL nibs that have some flex?

What, if anything, is the significance of the word ETERNAL?

 

Am assuming we are speaking here of the abilities of the nib.

 

Edited to add....... just checked my only other ETERNAL nib - it's a No. 2 fitted to a l.f. pen, and that's equally firm.

Edited April 6, 2017 by PaulS

[Cob]

Yes this thread has become two!

 

As I wrote in the other one, the eight or so I have had, have all been nails, but others - who have handled more of them inisist that some Eternals are flexible.

 

The Eternal nib as is perhaps suggested by its nomenclature, was guaranteed indefinitely by Mabie Todd; the Sheaffer "Lifetime" was a similar idea. The Eternals I have and have had are indeed stiff and subsstantial - made to last I should say!

 

Best wishes

Cob

[eckiethump]

The Eternal nib has reputedly twice the thickness of a Swan nib, which is supposedly twice the the thickness of a Blackbird nib, hence price differences.

Flex is determined by the shape of the nib and temper of the metal in the nib. With manipulation and "re-modelling", a stiff nib can be made "flex" but some may consider it to just be made "springy"

[PaulS]

if there's that much gold in them, perhaps I'd better sell mine - probably like many pre-WW II nibs, undoubtedly there is a percentage that had flex, it's just that I've heard it said before that ETERNALS tend to stiff, so use of the word 'routinely' might be over enthusiastic, but you're lucky to have a flex example.

Assuming that ETERNAL nibs were contemporary with M.Ts. introduction of the leverless pen (mid to late 1930s), then you'd expect a proportion of that model to have flexible nibs, since flex points weren't uncommon then.

[northlodge]

Eckiethump, in handling a fairly significant number of such items, might be expected to identify the various characteristics.

 

However, If you are seeking a single pen, and spot an Eternal for sale, I would not bank on it being flexible.

 

The same can be said of the CS Duro nibs, I had a lovely flexi 58 nib recently, but most are solid, firm examples.

[sidthecat]

I'm curious: is the disparity of nib thickness between Swan and Blackbird real or just advertising? I'd imagine that a thinner nib would have more potential for flex, in the right hands, of course.

[Greenie]

The two identical topics have been merged into a single thread.

 

That being said, my Eternals are very firm in 7 out of 7 examples.

[Cob]

if there's that much gold in them, perhaps I'd better sell mine - probably like many pre-WW II nibs, undoubtedly there is a percentage that had flex, it's just that I've heard it said before that ETERNALS tend to stiff, so use of the word 'routinely' might be over enthusiastic, but you're lucky to have a flex example.

Assuming that ETERNAL nibs were contemporary with M.Ts. introduction of the leverless pen (mid to late 1930s), then you'd expect a proportion of that model to have flexible nibs, since flex points weren't uncommon then.

The Eternals were introduced in the 1920s - in the USA first I believe with such models as the ETN44 etc, recognisable (up to 1927) by their "stacked coin" cap bands. I had an English-made (well it was stamped England) BHR ETN 44 with the "stacked coin band". Post 1927 in the USA the pens had conventional twin cap bands.

 

The Leverless patents were granted in 1932 and the first pens appeared the following year. The "paddle" type Leverless pens continued until the late 1940s when they were replaced by the pressure bar version. Certainly Eternals are found on the Leverless pens, it seems that 4s and 6s are more requently found than the smaller types. I happen to have a 2 and 3 in my spares box, but they do not seem to crop up very often.

 

Cob

Edited April 8, 2017 by Cob

[PaulS]

thanks for that information, with appropriate corrections to my earlier comments

[sidthecat]

I just received a Blackbird, and I think that the issue isn't the thickness of the gold: it's the width of the nib itself. It's a smaller-scale nib than the Swans I own, which makes economic sense.

Unfortunately, that thinner nib is a nail, which will not do for the person for whom the pen is destined.

She's not a collector; she's an artist, so I may replace the nib with a rather narrow but quite flextime Waterman nib, which I found on a slender A A Waterman pen with no cap. One develops an eye for useful wreckage over time.

[PaulS]

another Eternal - from the wild this morning - it's a No. 4 on a leverless, and I'd estimate the thickness, just behind the point, to be something like 0.8 - 0.9 mm - needless to say it's as stiff as a board........... a heap of gold though.

[Cob]

Yes, this is what I would have expected. I always avoid Eternals these days, a shame in a way as the 1920s Eternal pens were often very handsome indeed.

 

Cob

[PaulS]

sorry, rather late in the day, but should have also added above that another of yesterdays pens was a 4460 leverless - and again a No. 4 nib. Not an Eternal though, and probably only half the thickness and with just a hint of tine separation if pressed hard.

There's something quite majestic about the looks of these larger nibs - when polished they are very impressive, even if they're rubbish to write with.

[sidthecat]

It turns out that my friend rather likes the nib, which isn't quite a nail - it flexes from about an EF to M. Probably a good starter pen.