Wishing For A Flexible #6 Steel Nib

[Synnove]

Whether that technology, know-how and machinery still exists nowadays is unknown to me. I would guess all of it is lost or partially lost by now. And whether the labor content used in the past is feasible in Europe or other countries with much higher wages and more technologically advanced is also unknown.

 

Given the success with modifying production samples in to having ample flex with low required pressure, the general know-how definitely exists. The technology also does certainly given the advancement of computer controls.

 

What's lacking is the ideal repeatable formula of geometry and material thickness that provides max elastic deformation, as well as a way to scale up production so as to be profitable selling to what amounts to be an incredibly small group of people (individuals who like flex nibs and are open to a steel nib), not to mention ironing out the extent of guarantees and warranty coverage.

[Andrea_R]

 

Given the success with modifying production samples in to having ample flex with low required pressure, the general know-how definitely exists. The technology also does certainly given the advancement of computer controls.

 

What's lacking is the ideal repeatable formula of geometry and material thickness that provides max elastic deformation, as well as a way to scale up production so as to be profitable selling to what amounts to be an incredibly small group of people (individuals who like flex nibs and are open to a steel nib), not to mention ironing out the extent of guarantees and warranty coverage.

thank you for pointing that out

[Cryptos]

There are some decent semi flexible Pelikan nibs made from Chrome Nickel Steel (CN) that have been around for 60 years or so and are still working well. As Pelikan has continuity as a company it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that they still have the protocol for making such nibs. Why they don't do that today is a bit of mystery.

[tonybelding]

What's lacking is the ideal repeatable formula of geometry and material thickness that provides max elastic deformation, as well as a way to scale up production so as to be profitable selling to what amounts to be an incredibly small group of people (individuals who like flex nibs and are open to a steel nib), not to mention ironing out the extent of guarantees and warranty coverage.

 

 

Of course these are exactly the same obstacles that (presumably) stood in the way of producing titanium nibs, and yet somehow they've made it to market.

[Synnove]

If I may conjecture a bit here, I think the problems with Ti nibs mostly had to do with the metallurgy involved and tool-up costs; not only is it hard on tools and requires argon atmosphere for welds to join properly*, but it has what I understand is a "memory" that makes it hard to form in to desired shapes (IIRC higher pressures are required).

 

Additionally, I'd suppose no R&D was done on geometry and material thickness (since they don't flex and they are just the same as the steel and gold variants), no niche market concerns since they are not flex nibs (and people have a positive association of the metal), and no warranty concerns due to lack of flex and a gold-like corrosion resistance.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if Bock introduced Ti nibs so they could eek out more profit in the market share of people who want something fancier than steel but can't accept the large price jump to gold.

 

 

*exposure to O2 will create an oxide surface on the metal which contaminates welds, but at the same time that oxide is what gives Ti it's great corrosion resistance.

Edited March 24, 2017 by Synnove

[Andrea_R]

 

 

Of course these are exactly the same obstacles that (presumably) stood in the way of producing titanium nibs, and yet somehow they've made it to market.

because they do have a market while flexible nibs don't or is not as profitable as the regular fountain pen user market

[FarmBoy]

The ability to weld titanium has advanced significantly since Parker produced the T1. The necessary alloys of steel, gold, titanium or what ever are not an issur. Understanding the nib geometry isn't a problem. Manufacturing techniques, tempering, and work hardening are all known. The problem is demand relative to other nib types.

 

How much would you pay for a Waterman Pink nib replica including the feed that works (flexes) as well or better than an original?

 

FB

[tonybelding]

Additionally, I'd suppose no R&D was done on geometry and material thickness (since they don't flex and they are just the same as the steel and gold variants), no niche market concerns since they are not flex nibs (and people have a positive association of the metal), and no warranty concerns due to lack of flex and a gold-like corrosion resistance.

 

uhhhhh... The titanium nibs I have -- on an OMAS Emotica and a new Karas Kustoms Ink -- are flex nibs. They aren't "full flex", or 1920s vintage flex, or anything of that sort, but they are at least semi-flexible and they do produce some line variation from my normal handwriting (as opposed to the gorilla hand required for Noodler's flex).

 

This is all I was asking for. Just a steel nib that's less expensive and more durable than a titanium nib, and flexes at least that much, if not a bit more. Something with flexibility comparable to a good 1970s-1980s era 14K gold semi-flex nib (like my Sheaffer Targa) would be great. It doesn't have to be a wet noodle. I wouldn't even want a wet noodle.

Edited March 25, 2017 by tonybelding

[Uncial]

I owned (and still own one ) Stipula titanium nibs. My experience was that they can be very variable in stiffness/flexibility. One was particularly flexible and very soft and the others were all much firmer feeling yet oddly all produced about the same variation. Im not sure if it was just my imagination but the nibs seemed to reach a point (firm feeling or soft) and then not get any further in terms of tine spread.I don't know if it's true that titanium can be easily sprung but the very soft, flexy one did feel like you could do it a damage while I suspect to spring the firmer ones you'd need to exert quite a pressure. The snap back was much more pronounced on the firmer nibbed ones. Overall they were what I would call semiflex; a little better than soft, so perhaps not quite as good as vintage semiflex

Edited March 25, 2017 by Uncial

[Synnove]

 

uhhhhh... The titanium nibs I have -- on an OMAS Emotica and a new Karas Kustoms Ink -- are flex nibs. They aren't "full flex", or 1920s vintage flex, or anything of that sort, but they are at least semi-flexible and they do produce some line variation from my normal handwriting (as opposed to the gorilla hand required for Noodler's flex).

 

This is all I was asking for. Just a steel nib that's less expensive and more durable than a titanium nib, and flexes at least that much, if not a bit more. Something with flexibility comparable to a good 1970s-1980s era 14K gold semi-flex nib (like my Sheaffer Targa) would be great. It doesn't have to be a wet noodle. I wouldn't even want a wet noodle.

 

Just to clarify a bit, it'd be somewhat useful if flex was defined quantitatively:

 

-A nib can be considered flex if and only if the tines splay to 1mm or more with around 220 grams of pressure (about 8 oz) or less. Ideally, the nib would have up to 2mm of line variation via elastic deformation, but this isn't required.

 

As you can see, your definition of flex isn't what I had in mind when I made that statement; I consider a nib flexible if it produces a generous amount of line variation under a reasonable pressure. A nib that produces a at best 1mm under 450 grams + of pressure (about 1lb) isn't a flex nib in my mind.

 

The fact is the presence of the slit and the semi-cylindrical-shell nature of the geometry pretty much guarantees the tines of ANY nib will splay to some degree when pressure is put upon them. However, a nib designed for flex will produce a noticeable variation without your hand going white from pressing down so hard (which seems to be the case when I watch videos of the Ti nibs being used). Line variation does not a flex nib make.

 

That being said, if someone would like to see how much weight you need to put on the titanium nib to get 0.5, 1, 1.5mm of line variation via a scale, I'm fully willing to admit my error should it take less force to flex than say the Wahl #6 shown in my chart.

 

*Just checked my Targa 14k: 0.85mm at almost 900 grams of pressure (that's close to 2lb). Not a flex nib at all.

Edited March 25, 2017 by Synnove

[Synnove]

But yes, if you want a stainless steel flex nib so much I can give you this creation: https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/318568-a-flexible-edison-jowo-6/

 

No idea how well it'd work with the stock Jowo feed (I don't have any to test with), but you could also use this nib in an Ahab or what have you.

[JonSzanto]

Speaking of Italian pens, the maker Marlen has a pen (or has recently been part of their line) named the Aleph that has a flexible steel nib, part from thinning of the nib (I think!), narrowing of the front of the nib, and mostly because of "wings" in the shoulder of the nib. It is not a flexible gold nib, but it does present at least one path of exploration.

Edited March 25, 2017 by JonSzanto

[Uncial]

Synnove:

That being said, if someone would like to see how much weight you need to put on the titanium nib to get 0.5, 1, 1.5mm of line variation via a scale, I'm fully willing to admit my error should it take less force to flex than say the Wahl #6 shown in my chart.

 

 

The Stipula flex and soft nib I owned (I sold it very recently) really didn't require a lot of pressure at all. It would go to perhaps, two and a half times width of a normal line after which I would feel quite uncomfortable pushing it any further. I'm not saying you're wrong as this is only a small sampling of Stipula titanium nibs and I may have simply got an unusual one. You can get the same out of the other Stipula's but it does require much more pressure. It struck me as odd that there should be a very noticeable variation in the feel of the nibs but not much by way of what they actually produced on the page. I kept one of the nibs (on an Orient Express) but I don't use it as a flexible nib at all - in fact I don't put any pressure on it - as I don't particularly like he pressure required. I don't think it would damage or deform the nib in the long term because the snap back is quite pronounced, but honestly I prefer my truly flex nibs on vintage pens. By way of comparison, as hess things are so desperately difficult to quantify without comparison or figures - the Stipula firm felt less stiff than the Noodler's Ahab, but not by a great degree. The soft and flexy Stipula nib felt pretty close to a vintage flex but without any quick snap back. It felt kind of rubbery on the page, if that makes any sense.

 

[Andrea_R]

It may require less pressure but it sprung quite easily loot at sbrebrown'r review or at this one, the nib it' sprung

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hq6vjc04mI

Even my Omas Emotica nib after being used for quite some time for flourishing was curved afterwards, they may be mushy/springy but are not meant to be flexed whatsoever

[Yehenara]

The ability to weld titanium has advanced significantly since Parker produced the T1. The necessary alloys of steel, gold, titanium or what ever are not an issur. Understanding the nib geometry isn't a problem. Manufacturing techniques, tempering, and work hardening are all known. The problem is demand relative to other nib types.

 

How much would you pay for a Waterman Pink nib replica including the feed that works (flexes) as well or better than an original?

 

FB

 

For the nib and feed alone I think I'd be willing to pay $200 to $250. Does that sound right?

[tonybelding]

 

For the nib and feed alone I think I'd be willing to pay $200 to $250. Does that sound right?

 

 

That's certainly far from what I had in mind. $15-20 is more like what I was thinking. If it's not cheaper than the titanium nibs that we can already buy now (for about $60 retail) then what's the point?

 

For $220 today you can already get a $14K gold nib custom-modified for flex.

Edited April 4, 2017 by tonybelding

[ac12]

 

 

 

 

That's certainly far from what I had in mind. $15-20 is more like what I was thinking. If it's not cheaper than the titanium nibs that we can already buy now (for about $60 retail) then what's the point?

 

For $220 today you can already get a $14K gold nib custom-modified for flex.

 

If you think $15-20 is a viable price.

Then do the project yourself.

Fund a nib making company to make the nib for you, to your spec.

Then see if you can recover your cost and make a profit at that price.

 

For $15-20 I would buy a few nib.

But I won't buy hundreds of nibs.

 

[deochand]

what is the difference between Kanwrite Nib No. 35 and Nib No. 4 ? I want to use this to make new custom fountain pen, which will be suitable for large bulb filler fountain pen?

[FarmBoy]

If you think $15-20 is a viable price.

Then do the project yourself.

Fund a nib making company to make the nib for you, to your spec.

Then see if you can recover your cost and make a profit at that price.

 

For $15-20 I would buy a few nib.

But I won't buy hundreds of nibs.

On a practical level there is more than 15 in scrap in the nib we are discussing so I'm guessing you wouldn't get any.

[tonybelding]

On a practical level there is more than 15 in scrap in the nib we are discussing so I'm guessing you wouldn't get any.

 

 

I don't know what you guys are talking about, but I'm still talking about the same nib that I asked for way back at the beginning of this thread, which is to say a #6 steel nib. Since I have seen these retail for as little as $2 each (for Noodler's Ahab/Konrad), I'm pretty sure the "scrap" value is utterly insignificant.