Wishing For A Flexible #6 Steel Nib

[tonybelding]

I just don't know why we can't have an inexpensive, readily available, #6 steel nib with flex. I can't think of any technical reason why this would be difficult. If Bock or Jowo would produce a batch of them, I'm sure pen makers would pick them up and offer pens with these. I mean. . . Bexley, Edison, Franklin-Christoph, TWSBI, Monteverde, Karas Kustoms, Tactile Turn, Taccia, Stipula, Delta. . . all these companies already using off-the-shelf #6 size nibs, I think? It should swap right in.

 

So what is the holdup? Why is this never done?

 

Is there no demand for flex nibs? No, I don't believe it. That just doesn't jibe with what I see. In the years I've been in this hobby, there's been a steady drumbeat of people looking for flex nibs and lamenting that our options are so limited. I've also seen the excitement at pen shows whenever there's a table with vintage flex pens to try out.

 

It hasn't been that many years since a factory stub nib was an uncommon and exotic item. If you wanted a stub you were probably hunting for vintage pens on eBay or else getting a nib custom ground. Now we can get inexpensive stubs off-the-shelf from Pilot, Lamy, Monteverde, TWSBI, Nemosine, and bare nibs from Goulet as well. And that's great. Why shouldn't flex be the next step?

 

Do we need to, I dunno... start a petition or something?

[ac12]

A flex nib is a different animal from ball tip nibs and stubs.

 

I think Fountain Pen Revolution has Indian flex nibs. These are like the Noodler's nib, with a LONG slit.

 

As for making a new flex nib.

The problem is having enough interest that will PAY the price, for the manufacturer to sell 10,000 nibs, at probably $200+ a nib.

 

Aurora just released a pen with a flex nib. I think Wahl/Eversharp also released a pen with a flex nib. But these are not inexpensive pens. Both are out of my budget range.

[tonybelding]

A flex nib is a different animal from ball tip nibs and stubs.

 

I think Fountain Pen Revolution has Indian flex nibs. These are like the Noodler's nib, with a LONG slit.

 

Noodler's flex nibs aren't actually flex nibs. If you put your weight on them with a gorilla hand, you can get them to flex a little. That's not what I'm looking for.

 

 

As for making a new flex nib.

The problem is having enough interest that will PAY the price, for the manufacturer to sell 10,000 nibs, at probably $200+ a nib.

 

$200+? Why in the world would it cost that? When I can buy steel #6 nibs today from Goulet for $15 each, or Nemosines for $10 each. . . I can even get a #6 titanium nib unit (with feed and housing, to fit Karas Kustoms Ink pens) for $60 each, and those are semi-flex nibs.

 

I don't see any reason why it should cost more to produce a steel flex nib than to produce the steel nibs they are already making and selling (at retail!) for $10 or $15 each. It's exactly the same product, except with thinner material.

 

And economies of scale are no excuse either. I don't know how big the market is for flex nibs, but it's hard to imagine it being much smaller than the market for stub nibs or for titanium semi-flex nibs, both of which are already being produced and sold.

[Synnove]

You can make our own if you've a dremel with the right attachments. You'll need to make a "plus" where the breather hole is by lengthening the slit and adding a new perpendicular slit. You'll also need to grind down the shoulders and grind away some material from the tines in the area between the shoulders and the end of the tines (reducing the thickness). I've had luck adding flex to both Jinhao and Jowo nibs; search my posts in this forum to find them.

 

This nib won't provide a lot of feedback as to when you've reached the plastic part of it's deformation* (not nearly as much as a gold nib which will make it's displeasure known if you try and flex it too far). That being said, they are easy to bend back to proper shape if sprung, and a feel can be developed so as to respect the limits. If done correctly, I'd expect a max of 1.5mm of line width at a reasonable pressure.

 

While not steel, http://flexiblenib.com/store/ (Flexible Nib Factory) will be producing 14k flex nibs soon enough.

[Lloyd]

I assume you're familiar wit the Desiderata pen company.

[escribo]

Jake (LOL), I agree - I don't see why a steel flex nib should cost any more than let's say a stub. Well maybe a different tempering process for the flex than the 'normal' nibs, but I don't see that being much more costly at all. Now here's something I don't know: can stainless be used to make springs? Obviously it can to some extent (Noodler's et al.), but to the extent a true flexy nib would require?

 

esc

[escribo]

I assume you're familiar wit the Desiderata pen company.

 

...appears to be out of nearly everything they sell. Then they are very terse about the 2 nibs that are not out of stock. Maybe I have to read the manual, or maybe they could just describe those nibs in a few words. Telling the nib's size would be a nice start.

 

esc

[tonybelding]

I assume you're familiar wit the Desiderata pen company.

 

 

I believe he's putting dip pen nibs into fountain pens. They're un-tipped and effectively disposable, so that's interesting (and his FAQ goes into some of the reasoning behind it) but it's not what I'm asking for here.

[tonybelding]

While not steel, http://flexiblenib.com/store/ (Flexible Nib Factory) will be producing 14k flex nibs soon enough.

 

I was not familiar with that company, but I'll keep en eye on that! A more expensive gold flex nib isn't what I was thinking of, but it would be a welcome option anyhow. It's also cool that they're machining ebonite feeds and housings.

[Bo Bo Olson]

After an order of 5,000 or more nibs, first thing Bock have to go out and order a roll of small lot of old time steel. Any small lot of steel, and a ton is a small lot, is very expensive.

 

There has to be new dies made fitting the old nib.

Perhaps they can copy Degussa's, superflex.....easy full flex nibs. I have some. So they need to analyze what steel Degussa used. I don't know if Bock made superflex nibs from '38 and after at all.

 

I know Bock made semi-flex in gold. I only have regular flex in steel.....in old nibs... '50's.

 

Never happen....there are too many old used superflex pens to be had.

 

Cheap nibs from India is the solution.............are they stainless steel? One could if one ordred enough put in a breather hole. The good thing is they do saw Ebonite for the feed. One would have to special order a fast feed. I'd take such a pen in CC, instead of burping ED.

 

One can make an 'Ahab Mod', turning that with the two little half moon grinds into Superflex...easy full flex.

I had that done to mine, and it is now that level, Easy Full Flex. I have a number of Degussa nibs, some on pens with that flex. A post war 100n with that flex.

 

But what is wanted is something like the Hunt 99-100-101. One can spend some $80 and have that nib tipped.

That is not cheap but would give you a Weak Kneed Wet Noodle....until it rusted.

My 99-100-101 Hunts make a wet noodle look Uncooked.

Edited March 23, 2017 by Bo Bo Olson

[ac12]

Look at the MANY old threads on this subject.

[Cryptos]

I'm not a materials science guy, which suggests that I may be barking up the wrong lamppost, but what you are asking (OP) is essentially a dip nib made of non-corroding steel and with some tipping. Is stainless steel inherently less flexible than the steel that is used in dip pens?

 

Anyway, that's the way I would go with regard to keeping costs reasonable. The tipping would likely be the most expensive part I guess.

[Mauricio]

What you are looking for has already been in existence for more than 200 years. They are called steel dip nibs. You just need to go find the equivalent size to a modern #6 nib. Dip nibs only cost a couple of dollars a piece and have proven themselves to be high performance flex writing nibs. They are nothing like all the gimmicky "modern flex nibs" making all sorts of false claims and misrepresentation by folks, retailers and even pen manufacturers that know zero or close to zero about flexible nibs!

[friedrichwild]

What you are looking for has already been in existence for more than 200 years. They are called steel dip nibs. You just need to go find the equivalent size to a modern #6 nib. Dip nibs only cost a couple of dollars a piece and have proven themselves to be high performance flex writing nibs. They are nothing like all the gimmicky "modern flex nibs" making all sorts of false claims and misrepresentation by folks, retailers and even pen manufacturers that know zero or close to zero about flexible nibs!

yes but they ware out really fast because the do not have tipping! i am wondering: if a large company decided to put tipping material on a zebra G nib for instance, would it work?

[tonybelding]

I feel like all you guys are making this way, way too complicated.

 

Look, I've got a #6 steel, fine-tipped, IPG nib right here. And I've got my calipers. At the tail end, where it fits around the feed, it measures 0.009 inch thick. By the time I get up to the tines, they're 0.016 inch thick. Take out that taper, and make it 0.009" from end to end, then you'd have a flexible nib. It's not rocket science. You don't need some special exotic alloy, and you don't need to carefully reproduce the contours of some vintage flexy wonder nib. You don't have to redesign the feed either. The titanium nibs they're already selling work just fine with the feeds they've got.

[ac12]

And how do you KNOW that 0.009 inches is the correct thickness for the tines to flex?

You are also forgetting the metal distorting effect of the dies, when they slam down on the nib blanks.

 

If you think it is so simple and inexpensive to do, why don't you contract with a nib manufacturer, to do a run of nibs to your specs.

[Cryptos]

Hmmm, okay, I'll pose my question again.

 

Can a dip nib be made from non-corroding steel?

 

If the answer is yes then surely that would be the simple way forward.

 

As for (bold part):

 

What you are looking for has already been in existence for more than 200 years. They are called steel dip nibs. You just need to go find the equivalent size to a modern #6 nib. Dip nibs only cost a couple of dollars a piece and have proven themselves to be high performance flex writing nibs. They are nothing like all the gimmicky "modern flex nibs" making all sorts of false claims and misrepresentation by folks, retailers and even pen manufacturers that know zero or close to zero about flexible nibs!

 

I disagree.

 

There is nothing gimmicky about the FA nib. It is soft and flexible, and performs precisely as it was intended. It is not competing in the same arena as dip pens, but then you would be hard pressed to find a vintage fountain pen that could compete with a dip pen. Very rare.

 

In vintage fountain pens there are flexible points, stubs, italics, obliques, all ranging from xxf to music. The FA nib fits in this range quite easily, and appropriately too.

 

I've seen other vintage nibs described as flexible that are little better (if at all) than modern attempts.

 

 

As far as misrepresentation goes, well, that's a whole other thing, often driven by agenda. There's a lot of exaggeration about vintage flex pens, so it is unfair to level the 'false claims' accusation only at the more modern variants and their supporters, because it definitely works both ways.

[Mauricio]

Empty of Clouds,

 

This is not the first time you become critical of my comments in my posts in FPN. In the past I have been courteous to you and taken lots of abuse from you. I have also advised you to stay away from my posts if you do not have anything constructive to say. I disagree with many of your posts, but out of respect to you, I do not meddle with any of your posts. Why can you not afford me with the same courtesy? After all, you are a moderator in this forum and you should be embarrassed of your conduct and your behavior when meddling with my posts in this forum.

 

First of all, you need to go learn about flex nibs before you volunteer information with any substance on the subject, and you need to become an expert before you start criticizing folks like me who specialize with flexible nibs. In your last incident attacking my statements, you clearly indicated you had only used one vintage flexible nib. What gives you the right to become so knowledgeable and critical when you had only experienced one vintage flexible nib (and a very faulty flexible nib one as a matter of fact)?. What gives you the right to go attack people who know a thing or two more than you? You think that just because you learned how to put a Band-Aid you can now perform open heart surgery and brain surgery and go become critical of the most knowledgeable professionals in the field?

 

Second, the Pilot Pen Company does not label, call or claim their nibs to be flexible. They call them "soft" nibs. They do not call them flexible nibs for a reason: They are not flexible nibs. Their nibs, feeds, and filling mechanisms are designed and manufactured for Kanji script (very short traces with minor to modest line variation to form Japanese characters), not for Western types of vintage calligraphy that require lots of line variation and singles traces as long as the entire word, and words as long as they can be, such as "congratulations". Those pens and their nibs, feeds, and filling mechanisms are not able to keep ink flow for the high demands required by certain types of vintage flexible writing. There are some people pushing those Japanese nibs for things they were never designed or manufactured for. You are welcome to do whatever you want with your pens, but please do not mislead people with false information, such as calling a soft nib a flexible nib. The Pilot Pen company has made high quality pens, nibs and inks for several decades. They have not misled their customers. It is people like you, Empty of Clouds, who make false claims about those nibs, promoting them to become "flexible" despite your very limited knowledge and experience in the subject ... all of this despite the fact that not even the manufacturer calls those nibs flexible. Anyone can find a lot of those modern Japanese pens with "soft" nibs that have been used once, twice of very few times and are selling for a fraction of the price of brand new pens. Why? Because folks who understand a thing or two about flexible nibs can notice the tremendous difference in between soft and a true flexible nib.

 

And to folks reading this post, when you see information about flexible nibs in the internet like the last post made by Empty of Clouds, you have to be very careful. If you search at his previous posts in this forum, the common denominator with flexible nibs is that vintage pens are too expensive (for him). He ventured to purchase a dilapidated Waterman 52 pen in eBay and attempted to restore it, only to inflict more damage on that pen and its parts, became very angry and frustrated and ended up giving it away or selling some of the remaining parts. His knowledge of vintage pens and flexible nibs is close to zero. On the other hand, his posts in this forum go by more than 4,000. His opinions could go by the millions if they could be measured, but his depth of knowledge on the subject of flex nibs are at the elementary level. There are not too many people who really understand about all the nuances of flexible nibs. Most of the information about flexible nibs on the internet is inaccurate. As FPN member Jar has previously said in this forum, when it comes to flexible nibs "you buy the seller before you buy the pen/nib."

[Cryptos]

As a regular user of dip pens - you know, the truly flexible kind - I feel perfectly at ease discussing the relative merits of same.

 

From my own experience with vintage flexible fountain pens (which is not limited to a single example) I have found that the claims made by the sellers have often far exceeded the true performance of the nib under proper use and in comparison to the aforementioned dip pens.

 

Let's be honest here. If you can use a dip pen with a degree of competence then you can easily use a flexible fountain pen. I am interested only in dispelling the myth of flexible nibs. These myths abound and are often promoted by sellers of both modern and vintage pens.

 

Have a look at this: https://www.youtube....h?v=a6xtJFOJF8k

 

This is my most recent vintage pen. How would you assess this? Flexible? Semi-flexible? I would be genuinely interested in your opinion.

 

 

Lastly, I criticized your statement - which was highly inflammatory - and not you as a person.

 

 

postscript: the word flexible can be interpreted along various axes of meaning. I do not support the use of this word alone in describing the characteristics of a pen. It is imprecise and leads to a great deal of confusion.

[tonybelding]

Have a look at this: https://www.youtube....h?v=a6xtJFOJF8k

 

This is my most recent vintage pen. How would you assess this? Flexible? Semi-flexible? I would be genuinely interested in your opinion

 

I would assess it as very soon to be destroyed if you continue abusing it like that. Fountain pens are not meant to be used that way.