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Obliques In Germany, Why Were So Popular?

oblique nibs germany pelikan kaweco

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31 replies to this topic

#21 fabri00

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Posted 20 April 2017 - 16:45

Maybe because of gothic hand-writing ??.

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#22 Astron

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Posted 20 April 2017 - 17:36

Nice try, but no one wrote like this with a fountain pen in everyday's life. This is print typography.

 

Richard Binder's article on nibs that Misfit quotes is an excellent introduction. Here is a direct link to the series of three article.http://www.richardsp...nibs/primer.htm

 

Uhm, people wrote like this long before Gutenberg presented his moving types.

 

These fonts a derived from writing with a broad quill and nib. Before fountain pens were invented.



#23 Bo Bo Olson

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 16:50

"Richard said, ""Some left-handed underwriters find that they get better results from a 30° left-foot oblique.""""

 

That would explain the 30 degree grinds I have in OBB, OB OM and OF.....all pure luck, none of the sellers knew anything about 15 or 30 degree angles.

 

I think when one matches the stub and semi-flex...which one 'has' to do, when talking oblique that gives line variation............one gets even more flair to ones writing with out having to do anything, than with simple semi-flex.

Even if most users of the '30's-65 era had learned some sort of fancy script in school, oblique with some flex...semi or maxi, gives so much line variation. Most users would have been pre-war.

 

I must admit.....some of my no name '60's semi-flex are not stub....just very springy nibs...semi-flex with the 'American Bump Under', so those were made being lower priced for the younger writers who were not trained in the Pre'WW2 writing styles....IMO.

The three tailed plane on the semi-flex non stub nib and name of the pen is the Super Constellation, Connie or Clipper. The AF-1 of Ike. Picture of plane at end. The pen is from the mid to late '50's and into the '60's. I have one in blue stripes also.

cliro3_zps1w4yc7li.jpg

cliro5_zpstjs7g1ih.jpg

 

Sigh Cubed....I should learn one or two of the 19th century German scrips....so my pens would really walk on wine. Soennecken was one....but they didn't bribe the right government official so another's style was adapted ... I don't remember if that was just after 1900 or just after WW1.

And I could not tell you in a blind test which is which.

 

1024px-SCFA-Connie_zpskiprynlc.jpg


German vintage '50-70 semi-flex stubs and those in oblique give the real thing in On Demand line variation. Modern Oblique is a waste of money for a shadow of line variation. Being too lazy to Hunt for affordable vintage oblique pens, lets you 'hunt' for line variation instead of having it.

www.nibs.com/blog/nibster-writes/nibs-germany & https://www.peter-bo...cts/nib-systems,

 

The cheapest lessons are from those who learned expensive lessons. Ignorance is best for learning expensive lessons.

 

 

 


#24 Astron

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 18:03


Sigh Cubed....I should learn one or two of the 19th century German scrips....so my pens would really walk on wine. Soennecken was one....but they didn't bribe the right government official so another's style was adapted ... I don't remember if that was just after 1900 or just after WW1.

Never heard of that. Details, please.



#25 OMASsimo

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 21:35

I'm not sure whether or not this was due to bribing, but the Prussian government commissioned Ludwig Suetterlin, a well-known graphics designer, with the development of a new standard script to be taught in school. This was before WWI. Soennecken made similar efforts but probably were not involved in that commission, though Bonn belonged to Prussia at the time iirc. It seems that there have been similar efforts in various German states at the time.

 

But the funny thing is that all these developments were based on the modern round-tipped steel or gold nib which, in contrast to the old quill, was producing a similarly fine line in any direction. That's exactly the opposite of what the old oblique nibs are aimed for.



#26 Astron

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 08:55

As far as I know Sütterlin was commissioned to invent a new school script in 1911 because the "Deutsche Kurrentschrift", used at that time, easy written with a quill, was nearly impossible to be written with modern steel nibs. Steel nibs lacked the neccessary flexibility. The government wanted to make it more easy for school children to learn to write. Prussia was keen on having educated citizens. The country could benefit in commerce and science. So he came up with the "Sütterlin Script" in 1911. A simplified version of blackletters and "Kurrentschrift" which straigthened the script upright and reduced the line variations. Therefore "Sütterlin Script" was indeed invented because of steel nibs. That is no secret.

 

Later the Nazis after they came in power would claim the "Sütterlin Script" would be a pure german script and would teach it widely. Confusingly after a few years they branded blackletters and "Sütterlin" as jewish writing ("Schwabacher Judenlettern") and banned them. It's discussed if this was based on a historical mistake (or alternate facts) or if it was because Hitler preffered roman letters and people in the invaded countries should be able to read anouncements of the german occupants more easily.

 

So, as a fun facts, modern Neo-Nazis often use scripts the Nazis of old banned and which were despised by the Führer.

 

After the war old german writing wasn't teached any more and new school scripts were introduced - based on roman letters. It only appears in nostalgic or folk context. As too many people still assocciate blackletters with Nazi Germany during the last one or two decades many people began to think blackletters shouldn't be forgotten as part of Germany's more peaceful heritage. And that they should be reclaimed or taken back from the Nazis grasp into Germany's cultural legacy of writing and enlightenment.


Edited by Astron, 22 April 2017 - 08:59.


#27 Bo Bo Olson

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 09:40

I'm glad two posters answered that knew what they were talking about.

 

Sütterlin Script is hard to read...in print or handwriting....wasn't taught in my wife's time in school, but she's proud she can read it, having been taught by her father.


German vintage '50-70 semi-flex stubs and those in oblique give the real thing in On Demand line variation. Modern Oblique is a waste of money for a shadow of line variation. Being too lazy to Hunt for affordable vintage oblique pens, lets you 'hunt' for line variation instead of having it.

www.nibs.com/blog/nibster-writes/nibs-germany & https://www.peter-bo...cts/nib-systems,

 

The cheapest lessons are from those who learned expensive lessons. Ignorance is best for learning expensive lessons.

 

 

 


#28 Astron

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 14:53

I have here...
 
an old book. In bad condition though. "Dr. Oetker Schul-Kochbuch". Printed probably shortly after WWII when the Deutsch Mark came in use, as you can see at the price. So it can not be 1939, as the introduction might suggest.
 
It's still printed in blackletters. And the title is actually Sütterlin print! - This isn't uncommon. - After the Nazis forbid the blackletters they still were used! Ordering and making new lettering sets was expensive and time comsuming. So, for many prints the old lettersets were still in use. Still after the war. This is most likely a reprint right after the war.
I don't know who this book belonged to as it was retrieved from large trash. It also contained a waranty certificate for an old waffle iron and a note with a recipe in... *drumroll* Sütterlin hand.
 
Maybe you wife like to read this. ;)
 
Dr_Oetker_Schulkochbuch_Ausgabe_D_%201_z

Dr_Oetker_Schulkochbuch_Ausgabe_D_%203_z

Dr_Oetker_Schulkochbuch_Ausgabe_D_%202_z

Dr_Oetker_Schulkochbuch_Ausgabe_D_%205_z

Dr_Oetker_Schulkochbuch_Ausgabe_D_%208_z

Dr_Oetker_Schulkochbuch_Ausgabe_D_%209_z

#29 OMASsimo

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 20:23

Thanks a lot for posting these pictures, which hopefully will clarify some misunderstandings frequently reoccurring here.

 

Your first two pictures show typical script inspired typography based on Suetterlin's standard script. It shows strong line variation. The next few pictures show typical blackletter typography, which progressively fell out of favour after about 1900 and had a short revival in the 1930s. But most telling for the present subject are the last two pictures. The second to last is probably the younger one because it is already written in simplified script ("vereinfachte Ausgangsschrift") which was used from the 1950s onwards. The last picture is a nice sample of the typical handwriting of the first half of the 20th century. And both are written WITHOUT line variation and that was quite common.

 

In fact, one of the above statements is not entirely correct:

 

 

 

because the "Deutsche Kurrentschrift", used at that time, easy written with a quill, was nearly impossible to be written with modern steel nibs. 

 

The modern steel nib, strongly promoted by Soennecken in Germany, was much more versatile than the quill because it would write similarly in any direction. The limitation of the quill was that up-strokes are nearly impossible without blotting. Therefore, the script usually was slanted and all vertical (slanted) moves rather narrow and written with a turned nib which therefore was cut slightly oblique. The introduction of the steel nib lifted those limitations an allowed for a more upright script. I think that's still somewhat noticeable in the above pictures.

 

And honestly, reading that old script written with a steel nib is a pleasure compared to earlier documents produced with quills, which frequently are a nightmare.



#30 Astron

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 20:57

I'm not sure which writing instrument was used. Haven't touched it in years. I should check about that.
This note is probably younger than the book. The "Haselnußtorte"-side looks like ball point. The other side almost looks like someone used a pencil and blue carbon paper. Notice how the line gets thinker in long words, then the pencil was rotated.
 
Dr_Oetker_Schulkochbuch_Ausgabe_D_%209_c
 
Dr_Oetker_Schulkochbuch_Ausgabe_D_%209_c
 
Dr_Oetker_Schulkochbuch_Ausgabe_D_%209_c

Funny note. My wife has the same book. 2000 edition, of course.
331979882050_1.jpg

 

And it's available in englisch: https://www.amazon.c...r/dp/3767003708


Edited by Astron, 22 April 2017 - 21:40.


#31 Astron

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Posted 30 September 2017 - 17:14

REPOST DUE TO PHOTOBUCKET RUINING PICTURE LINKS NET-WIDE.

 

A quick repost of the images Photobucket stole from us.

 

I have here...
 
an old book. In bad condition though. "Dr. Oetker Schul-Kochbuch". Printed probably shortly after WWII when the Deutsch Mark came in use, as you can see at the price. So it can not be 1939, as the introduction might suggest.
 
It's still printed in blackletters. And the title is actually Sütterlin print! - This isn't uncommon. - After the Nazis forbid the blackletters they still were used! Ordering and making new lettering sets was expensive and time comsuming. So, for many prints the old lettersets were still in use. Still after the war. This is most likely a reprint right after the war.
I don't know who this book belonged to as it was retrieved from large trash. It also contained a waranty certificate for an old waffle iron and a note with a recipe in... *drumroll* Sütterlin hand.
 
Maybe you wife like to read this. ;)
 
Dr_Oetker_Schulkochbuch_Ausgabe_D_ 1_resize.jpg

Dr_Oetker_Schulkochbuch_Ausgabe_D_ 2_resize.jpg

Dr_Oetker_Schulkochbuch_Ausgabe_D_ 3_resize.jpg

Dr_Oetker_Schulkochbuch_Ausgabe_D_ 4_resize.jpg

Dr_Oetker_Schulkochbuch_Ausgabe_D_ 5_resize.jpg

Dr_Oetker_Schulkochbuch_Ausgabe_D_ 6_resize.jpg

 

Dr_Oetker_Schulkochbuch_Ausgabe_D_ 7_resize.jpg

 

 

I'm not sure which writing instrument was used. Haven't touched it in years. I should check about that.
This note is probably younger than the book. The "Haselnußtorte"-side looks like ball point. The other side almost looks like someone used a pencil and blue carbon paper. Notice how the line gets thinker in long words, then the pencil was rotated.
 
Dr_Oetker_Schulkochbuch_Ausgabe_D_ 8_resize.jpg

Dr_Oetker_Schulkochbuch_Ausgabe_D_ 9_crop1.jpg

Dr_Oetker_Schulkochbuch_Ausgabe_D_ 9_crop2.jpg

Dr_Oetker_Schulkochbuch_Ausgabe_D_ 9_crop3.jpg

Dr_Oetker_Schulkochbuch_Ausgabe_D_ 9_resize.jpg

Funny note. My wife has the same book. 2000 edition, of course.
331979882050_1.jpg

 

And it's available in englisch: https://www.amazon.c...r/dp/3767003708



#32 Bo Bo Olson

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Posted 01 October 2017 - 14:56

I had 2 left foot obliques, a Lamy and a Pelikan.  I replaced both with a standard ball tip F nib, which I liked better.""""""

I can understand that....in Lamy is a nail, had two of them. Sold one, had the OB on my Persona made CI by PB.

I trans-mailed a few 200 nibs to England in there are idiots in Germany who refuse to mail outside of Germany. The regular 200 nibs impressed me....the 200 obliques not at all. There was no line variation.....that is expected from the oblique semi or maxi-semi-flex nibs.

I have a W.Germany 200's OM nib, that I had hoped in the W. Germany time of '82-90 was a slight tad more springy than the '90-97 era, there would be a bit of line variation.....unless maxed to 3 X there was none....and no body writes maxed to start with.

 

You have been unfortunate to have first a nail in the Lamy and then either a regular flex if '82-97 era or fat and blobby semi-nail in 400/600 or nail in the 800....and worthless in it takes the stub, and the bit of flex of the '30-50-65 era nibs to have line variation.

Had you a Semi-flex oblique from the '50-65 era you would not have replaced the nib.

 

I have some 26 semi-flex pens, 16 maxi-semi-flex....of the both flexes I have 13 from OBB, OB, OM and OF.

4 of the 13 are also ground in 30 degree grind....OBB, OB, OM and OF.....pure luck......oh, forgot my Pelikan 500 has a maxi-semi-flex OBBB in 30 degree grind. (A real signature pen; too bad I have nothing to sign. :rolleyes: )  So make that 5 of 13.


Edited by Bo Bo Olson, 01 October 2017 - 14:58.

German vintage '50-70 semi-flex stubs and those in oblique give the real thing in On Demand line variation. Modern Oblique is a waste of money for a shadow of line variation. Being too lazy to Hunt for affordable vintage oblique pens, lets you 'hunt' for line variation instead of having it.

www.nibs.com/blog/nibster-writes/nibs-germany & https://www.peter-bo...cts/nib-systems,

 

The cheapest lessons are from those who learned expensive lessons. Ignorance is best for learning expensive lessons.

 

 

 






Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: oblique nibs, germany, pelikan, kaweco



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