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The Blue Blues! Help Please :)

blue black permanent ink waterproof ink

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#1 Simulacrum

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 18:11

Hi everyone, so I've read a bunch and researched and have narrowed things down but I'm still having difficulty so I'm hoping for some help.  

 

I've narrowed it down to (I think) Sailor Sei Boku, and Noodlers 54th Mass., Bad Blue Heron, Bad Belted Kingfisher.

 

I've a few questions I can't seem to resolve after checking out as much as I can find about these inks. 

 

I'm looking for a waterproof, archival ink that is a blue black colour.  These all seem to fit the bill, but there seems to be some differences of opinion and differences in test results on the waterproofness of the Noodlers Inks.  It seems to be based on the cellulose content of the paper from what I can tell?

 

Is there a way to figure out the cellulose content of a paper before buying it ? I've looked a bit online for the papers I have but haven't been able to figure it out (Strathmore 300 series Bristol ) Canson Sketch (the popular one on amazon - side note - decent paper for fountain pens in my opinion).  I have some Tomoe River paper ordered about a month ago -should be here soon.  

 

So thoughts on:

1. The colour - I can't seem to find colour samples of them in the same photo - to eliminate different camera settings/ white balances etc..  I have Platinum Pigment Blue and love the colour when it's wet and dark, but not as much the more watery looking finished product. It's ok though but don't love it. I have a Diamine 1864 blue black that looks awesome but it's not waterproof obviously. 

 

How do the colours compare to each other?  I keep reading different things.  Are they sufficiently different to warrant owning all of them ? If you could only have one blue black permanent, waterproof ink which one would it be ? 

 

The Noodlers seem to get complaints about feathering more than the Sailor.  True ? Also, the Noodlers seem to be different colours bottle to bottle from what I'v read.  I don't love that idea.  

 

Any other thoughts or opinions on this would be great.  

 

Leaning Sei Boku -

 

Thanks.  


Edited by Simulacrum, 09 March 2017 - 18:53.


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#2 Sandy1

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 19:10

Hi,

 

I'd be leaning towards sei boku as well for the reasons you mentioned, plus the high performance on dreadful paper.

 

I'd also add R&K Salix to the list of contenders.

 

Bye,

S1


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#3 Simulacrum

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 19:26

Thanks Sandy1!

 

I didn't realize the high performance on dreadful paper was something Sei Boku excelled at, but another plus.  

 

The Salix has me a bit nervous that it's an Iron Gall ink. I'm less worried about staining inside my pen than I am about wrecking the nib. As long as the pen works, I'm pretty much ok with how it looks.  

 

I will mostly be using it for drawing. I've heard the Salix isn't as good at blocking in solid colours (although some shading when filling in solid areas can look equally cool - I like both I guess for different things).   Any thoughts how the Salix compares to Sei Boku at blocking solid areas ? 

 

Thanks.



#4 Sandy1

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 22:44

Hi,

 

Ah, for blocking solid areas I reckon a lot will depend on the applicator: wide-nib pen, sponge, brush, etc. You might find that a pen with a Fude nib does nicely. (I use a Sailor DE.)

 

EDIT for clarity: To 'block in', a Fude nib can be inverted to give a narrow line, once blocked in, the Fude nib or other applicator can be used to fill-in the solid area. (You Tube includes numerous examples of drawing with a Fude nib - too many to mention.)

 

​Oh, sei boku dilutes very well - I've taken it down to 10% concentration, hence generate a feint line. 

 

sei boku still in the lead...

 

Bye,

S1


Edited by Sandy1, 10 March 2017 - 03:58.

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#5 Runnin_Ute

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 01:24

Of the ones you identified as ones you like, I only have 54th Massachusetts. It's a good color, and I have no complaints it just doesn't get as much use as my other blue blacks. (Pelikan 4001 Blue Black, Diamine Blue Black (not the 1864 version))  I think I have a sample of Monteverde BB around somewhere too.

 

I don't always have a pen inked with blue black, but I do frequently.  I love the color, but don't require permanence, so once I got two or three I was set. I think 200 ml should last a while don't you? (what's left of an 80 ml Diamine, a nearly full 62.5 ml Pelikan, and 90 ml Noodler's) The most empty of the three right now is the Diamine, as I just started a new bottle of Pelikan.

 

Other permanent blue blacks- ESSRI and Diamine Registrars.


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#6 CAG_1787

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 01:31

All of the Noodler's can be easily compared on the Goulet Swab Shop, but since you said you've already done lots of research, you've probably already done that.

Anderson Pens also offers samples of all four (though I see that Sei-boku is currently out of stock), so that might be a good option to allow you to try for yourself without investing in a whole bottle.
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#7 Simulacrum

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 14:44

Sandy1 - Thanks again.  I do have a fude nib on a Hero pen and love it for that purpose.  

 

Runnin_Ute a.k.a. Lotsa_Ink :) -   I had been dismissing Iron Gall inks in my head for the known acidic properties, is there a reason I can't think of that people are using Iron Gall inks when there are similar ink colours (like Sei Boku etc..) that are not as acidic ?  Why use Iron Gall if there are other less destructive alternatives ?  I don't mean people shouldn't use it - of course people like things for different reasons and I like the historical aspect of using an ink that generations have used but, I don't personally want to deal with the unnecessary risk of the acidic properties damaging pens and deteriorating the paper over time. 

 

The Sei Boku has a ph of 8.61 according to R. Binder-  http://www.richardsp...care/ink_ph.htm

 

I think I'm pretty sold on Sei Boku - It also performed really well in the UV/ fade test on this site by Amberleadavis.  

 

Funny how there's always compromises to make - Only thing I can think of about Sei Boku is the potential red sheen in certain circumstances - I like the idea of it, but don't know if I'll always want it to do that.  Guess that's why there's so many inks!  to that end

 

CAG_1787 - I have checked out Goulets swab shop many times- awesome resource - but their lack of sailor products doesn't allow me to compare them side by side.  I have searched and I can't seem to find side by side comparisons with an ink that I own and the inks that I'm looking into so that I can measure the photo against something I'm familiar with.  If anyone has come across or can offer personal comparison of how the Sei Boku compares to the Platinum Pigment Blue, and the Diamine 1867 Blue Black that would be great!

 

I have thought about ordering some samples. I am in Canada so Goulet is difficult to use with customs/ brokerage fees etc..  There are some places - I'll plug wonderpens.ca that sell samples that I am probably going to order some from - I'm debating skipping the samples though so I don't have to pay for shipping samples just to later order the bottle - probably about half the cost of a bottle of ink to ship a few samples - Canada doesn't seem to have the same free online shopping shipping that the U.S. does.  market scales etc.. I would think. 

 

Thanks all. ;)



#8 Tinjapan

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 16:11

I have all four of the inks you listed and can put them together in one pic. Hopefully tomorrow. Another I woukd add is Pilot Blue Black. I have always loved the color but was floored when I saw the results of water tests done by Tokyo Pen Shop Quill. Total immersions of over a minute and still legible!

Seiboku is great. I always have a pen inked with this for when I need a permanant ink, a habit that carries over from before I learned of Pilot's Blue black's qualities.

Salix is lovely but I lost a clip due to it leaking into the cap and corroding the spring away, just as IG inks did on vintage pens back before they became vintage. IG should not harm gold nibs, however, not modern steel nibs, so I have read.

If I haven't posted pics of my ink cards for you in a day, please pm me to remind me. Have lots of distrttions around me.

#9 Simulacrum

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 16:59

Tinjapan!  That's awesome.  Thank you, looking forward to it !



#10 Big_Kahuna

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 21:56

Tagged and subscribed.  Sei Boku is on my ink candidate list.  I am so impressed with Sailor's black nanopigment ink (Kiwa-Guro) that I'd love to have a blue version.

 

To the OP:  Don't rule out IG just yet.  I recommend you consider trying some modern Iron Gall inks out sometime in an inexpensive pen.  You may find that some reports of excessive risks or burdensome maintenance are overblown.  You may also find that many IG inks are extraordinarily waterfast and well-behaved.  I always have at least one pen loaded with a blue-black IG ink, and frequently more than one.

 

Edited to add:

The recommendation for Pilot Blue Black is something I agree with.  PBlBlk is a great ink with a cellulose-reactive blue dye component.  When soaked in water, the blue component remains bonded to the paper but much of the "black" dye gets lifted.  The writing becomes lighter blue but remains legible.  It is an extremely easy ink to live with in terms of behavior and maintenance requirements.  The only shortcoming I've noticed is that PBlBlk is not very lightfast or UV resistant, so I would not consider it "archival".  When purchased in the 350ml "master bottles" it is very inexpensive as well.  I use about 2-4 ml of Pilot BlBlk every week and consider it to be a reliable workhorse ink.


Edited by bigkahuna, 10 March 2017 - 22:06.


#11 Tinjapan

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Posted 11 March 2017 - 08:14

Looks like I either do not have Bad Blue Heron or it is one of the many inks I have yet to try. I do have the others though and included Pilot BB for compariso.

URL=http://www.fountainp...__img_3023.jpg]fpn_1489219146__img_3023.jpg[/URL]

#12 CrispyBacon_87

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Posted 11 March 2017 - 18:04

Fellow Canadian here... I ordered my Seiboku from Amazon. Took awhile to get here, but it's cheaper than any Canadian stores.

#13 amberleadavis

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Posted 11 March 2017 - 22:16

Does Wonderpens or another Canadian store offer samples?  I would highly recommend that you try samples of each one.


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#14 Simulacrum

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 00:35

Thanks to everyone who replied.  And those who thought about replying but were too busy lol.  

 

Iron Gall - You have me thinking on this now as I have been thinking more and more that I really don't like using non permanent / waterproof inks and that limits my colour palette and selection severly.  I think I'll give some a try at some point.  So thank you BigKahuna!

 

Thanks again TinJapan for posting the images.  To me, it looks like the Seiboku looks like more of a teal blue, maybe not quite teal, but less of a black blue (except in the darkest shading areas).  It looks pretty similar to Bad Belted King Fisher (a bit lighter maybe in the lighter shading areas).  And 54th Mass. looks closer to a black blue like Diamine 150th Anniversary Blue Black.  

 

Would you say that's true ? 

 

The Samples.... ya I should get samples, but I think I ultimately will like most inks and kind of just dont' want to wait for the mail to come twice. I'm leaning towards ordering SeiBoku and some other samples (including some Iron Gall - which colours... hmmm...)  

 

As a last thought (slightly outside the original post) Other great Permanent Waterproof inks of any colour (other than black and blue)?  And maybe this needs to be searched first, but just was thinking about mixing Platinum Red Rose Pigment ink with Platinum Carbon Black?  Can this be done without problems  ? 

 

Thanks again :)



#15 Tinjapan

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 01:22

At first though, I was thinking 54th Mass. dried greener than Diamine 150th Anni Blue/black but that too has a lot of green in it. I'll check my ink cards when I get home. You may be right, they msy be a close match colorwise.

Oh! I am not against IG inks, just be careful with them. KWZI has a whole rage of colors in IG. The new Platinum Clasic inks are also IG.

#16 FLZapped

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 19:58

I have standard Nooder's Blue Black and i don't know that I have any feathering complaint about it. As far as waterproof, the black component is essentially their bulletproof black.

 

I also have bad Belted Kingfisher. This is the newest of the security inks and from what I can gather, they will vary slightly from batch to batch on purpose for traceability purposes.



#17 Simulacrum

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 02:16

Tagged and subscribed.  Sei Boku is on my ink candidate list.  I am so impressed with Sailor's black nanopigment ink (Kiwa-Guro) that I'd love to have a blue version.

 

To the OP:  Don't rule out IG just yet.  I recommend you consider trying some modern Iron Gall inks out sometime in an inexpensive pen.  You may find that some reports of excessive risks or burdensome maintenance are overblown.  You may also find that many IG inks are extraordinarily waterfast and well-behaved.  I always have at least one pen loaded with a blue-black IG ink, and frequently more than one.

 

Edited to add:

The recommendation for Pilot Blue Black is something I agree with.  PBlBlk is a great ink with a cellulose-reactive blue dye component.  When soaked in water, the blue component remains bonded to the paper but much of the "black" dye gets lifted.  The writing becomes lighter blue but remains legible.  It is an extremely easy ink to live with in terms of behavior and maintenance requirements.  The only shortcoming I've noticed is that PBlBlk is not very lightfast or UV resistant, so I would not consider it "archival".  When purchased in the 350ml "master bottles" it is very inexpensive as well.  I use about 2-4 ml of Pilot BlBlk every week and consider it to be a reliable workhorse ink.

Regarding the Iron Gall Inks - I've been researching them and was thinking they seem to not need so much more care than other pigmented inks do so..  I'm getting some samples - and to answer amberleadavis' question, yes wonderpens does do samples (and sidenote- I have had good service from them before).  

 

Question: Do Iron Gall inks turn black eventually ? From what I read they are supposed to, but other people seem to say that they don't really.  So, if they all turn black whatl's the point of getting different colours ? 

 

I'm hoping they retain some of their colour but just darken - that's the only thing that makes sense to me otherwise it's just different colours temporarily for marketing purposes ? I don't know.  Any info on this ? 



#18 amberleadavis

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 02:20

I've looked back through and after 4 years, my IG inks are not black.  


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#19 CAG_1787

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 15:31

Regarding the Iron Gall Inks - I've been researching them and was thinking they seem to not need so much more care than other pigmented inks do so..  I'm getting some samples - and to answer amberleadavis' question, yes wonderpens does do samples (and sidenote- I have had good service from them before).  

 

Question: Do Iron Gall inks turn black eventually ? From what I read they are supposed to, but other people seem to say that they don't really.  So, if they all turn black whatl's the point of getting different colours ? 

 

I'm hoping they retain some of their colour but just darken - that's the only thing that makes sense to me otherwise it's just different colours temporarily for marketing purposes ? I don't know.  Any info on this ? 

 

For the most part, they will darken considerably as the iron oxidizes, but not necessarily all the way to black.


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#20 Noihvo

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 16:48



Regarding the Iron Gall Inks - I've been researching them and was thinking they seem to not need so much more care than other pigmented inks do so..  I'm getting some samples - and to answer amberleadavis' question, yes wonderpens does do samples (and sidenote- I have had good service from them before).  

 

Question: Do Iron Gall inks turn black eventually ? From what I read they are supposed to, but other people seem to say that they don't really.  So, if they all turn black whatl's the point of getting different colours ? 

 

I'm hoping they retain some of their colour but just darken - that's the only thing that makes sense to me otherwise it's just different colours temporarily for marketing purposes ? I don't know.  Any info on this ? 

 

fpn_1489769288__img_2877.jpg

 

fpn_1489769305__img_2878.jpg


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