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Philosophy Of Use For Functional "signature Pen", Any Recommendations?

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57 replies to this topic

#21 Sailor Kenshin

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 13:23

Hi Sandy1,
 
Wow.  Thank you for the information, and I truly appreciate your in-depth consideration and the specificity of your responses.  I have read the thread on I-G inks that you linked.  It sound like both Koh-i-Noor Rapido-Eze and acetic acid would be good investments.  I will also be sure to continue maintaining strict ink hygiene discipline.
 
I also appreciate your feedback on criteria 4 (ease of detail stripping the pen for maintenance).  It's nice to see requirements ease instead of creep.  Wish that happened more often.
 
I'll look at the P99, Rotring 600 and Music Nib per your suggestion as well.  Is the music nib fairly tolerant of variance in inclination and roll angles?  How is the risk of "catching paper" if I am sloppy with my angle control?
 
Interesting thoughts on on-body carry methods (placket vs sleeve-slot vs belt-holster).  The pen holster sounds like a good option for field sites.  I have several shirts with sleeve slots also, but I rarely use them... nothing screams TACTICAL louder than sleeve slots, mic loops, or molle-looped man purses.  The vast majority of the time I try to look decidedly non-tactical.  
 
Thanks again for your insightful reply. 



Rapido-Eze is miraculous. It got ten years' worth of India ink out of some Osmiroid nibs.

My Sailor Music nib may be a paintbrush, but I don't think it 'catches' at any angle. I'm also wondering whether, given your size requirements, a Pelikan M2x might be on the small side.

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#22 Big_Kahuna

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 14:26

It makes me sad that some people on a niche forum like this resort to name calling on daily basis to lobby their own preferences.

 

It is going to be your pen, not mine (I lobby for nails and springy nibs), not Bo Bo's, not anyone else's. Yours. If you want a nail or Pelikan 400NN with a manifold nib, you're golden no matter what someone else says. If you want a flex nib, then you're golden too. But if you didn't want a flex nib, but buy one anyway because someone lobbied one to you by flex making everything better, heavenly glory, and rosy pink, you might either only waste your money on something you didn't want, and / or ruin a nib.

 

Get a dip pen and see yourself if flex does anything to you. You'll even gain right to name call fountain pen users lazy barbarians. Win-win.

 

 

Wait.  Name calling?  Please, dear God, tell me I have not stumbled into another so-called "safe space" where people get offended over innocent things like advocating their preferences.  If so, I'm in the wrong place.  

 

I'm new, bought my first pen in late 2016 and only have a couple dozen (most of which are very modestly priced).  I don't have many preferences yet because I am ignorant.  I   I probably couldn't tell the difference between the various grades of nail to semi-flex to flex to maxi whatever flex.  I'm trying to figure out the parlance and reading as much of the forums as I can in the time I have. I really don't know for sure what I prefer yet in terms of flex, but I'm trying to figure that out.  Am I willing to entertain "lobbyists" who advocate for this or that?  Sure.  I have nails, they work fine for me.  I do not know much about "flex" but am willing to try them out.  Lots of people like them, so maybe there's merit there.  I won't know until I try.  I "think" I want a wet gushy B or BB with iron gall ink for signatures.  Only one way to find out, buy one and try it.  Or buy three (of varying degrees of "flexiness") and try them. Ask advice from more knowledgeable people to minimize wasting resources.  Keep the ones I like, get rid of the ones I don't.  No offense intended and none taken.  Have fun, spend money, learn something and chat about out.  So far, I've really enjoyed this whole FP thing.  Until today.

 

 Apparently, today is the day that I learn that things I consider harmless are potentially considered offensive (?) by others.  Today is the day I learn that what I considered idle banter is "name calling."

 

Now my next decision is not what pen/paper/ink/nib to buy.  It is whether or not I spend time in a forum where I'll be expected walk on eggshells to avoid "triggering" somebody or contributing to their "sadness"

 

Back to the main topic:  I motion for closure with the great folks who have helped me in this thread.  So, thank you all.  I really appreciate your help.  I have ordered a Platinum 3776 with "C" nib.  I'm shopping for a Sailor and also a Pelikan M200 ('80-'90).  So, going to buy three pens and keep the one(s) I like.  If I'm not banned by then, and if this thread is not locked, I'll share my findings.  Once again, thank you guys and gals!



#23 sail1942

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 15:18

You might want to consider a TWISBI pen. They are available in a number of models. They can be disassembled. I use TWISBI pens with Noodler's "Heart of Darkness" ink which bonds with the paper and is totally secure against water and all other solvents.

#24 Big_Kahuna

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 15:43

Thanks sail1942.  I tried a couple of TWSBIs and thought they were good pens (Diamond 580 and VAC-700), but I got rid of them after I got my Pilot Custom Heritage 92s (which are my favorite demonstrator pens so far). I'm a little concerned about the reports of TWSBIs cracking.  Has that issue been resolved?



#25 Sailor Kenshin

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 16:29

Wait.  Name calling?  Please, dear God, tell me I have not stumbled into another so-called "safe space" where people get offended over innocent things like advocating their preferences.  If so, I'm in the wrong place.  
 
I'm new, bought my first pen in late 2016 and only have a couple dozen (most of which are very modestly priced).  I don't have many preferences yet because I am ignorant.  I   I probably couldn't tell the difference between the various grades of nail to semi-flex to flex to maxi whatever flex.  I'm trying to figure out the parlance and reading as much of the forums as I can in the time I have. I really don't know for sure what I prefer yet in terms of flex, but I'm trying to figure that out.  Am I willing to entertain "lobbyists" who advocate for this or that?  Sure.  I have nails, they work fine for me.  I do not know much about "flex" but am willing to try them out.  Lots of people like them, so maybe there's merit there.  I won't know until I try.  I "think" I want a wet gushy B or BB with iron gall ink for signatures.  Only one way to find out, buy one and try it.  Or buy three (of varying degrees of "flexiness") and try them. Ask advice from more knowledgeable people to minimize wasting resources.  Keep the ones I like, get rid of the ones I don't.  No offense intended and none taken.  Have fun, spend money, learn something and chat about out.  So far, I've really enjoyed this whole FP thing.  Until today.
 
 Apparently, today is the day that I learn that things I consider harmless are potentially considered offensive (?) by others.  Today is the day I learn that what I considered idle banter is "name calling."
 
Now my next decision is not what pen/paper/ink/nib to buy.  It is whether or not I spend time in a forum where I'll be expected walk on eggshells to avoid "triggering" somebody or contributing to their "sadness"
 
Back to the main topic:  I motion for closure with the great folks who have helped me in this thread.  So, thank you all.  I really appreciate your help.  I have ordered a Platinum 3776 with "C" nib.  I'm shopping for a Sailor and also a Pelikan M200 ('80-'90).  So, going to buy three pens and keep the one(s) I like.  If I'm not banned by then, and if this thread is not locked, I'll share my findings.  Once again, thank you guys and gals!



I don't get it either...haven't seen any name-calling on this thread.

#26 Jamesbeat

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 17:15

 
 
Wait.  Name calling?  Please, dear God, tell me I have not stumbled into another so-called "safe space" where people get offended over innocent things like advocating their preferences.  If so, I'm in the wrong place.  
 


Omg, you just triggered me!

I'd go and cry in the bathroom, but I'm not sure which one I'm supposed to use nowadays :D

Seriously though, I do have a suggestion, although it may seem like a bizarre one: a Sheaffer No Nonsense.

The cap screws on, they are available with all sorts of nibs (including calligraphy) they can be used with cartridges or a converter and they are cheap enough that you won't be too upset if you lose or break it.

At the opposite end of the spectrum, you could get a custom pen made exactly to your specifications, although they tend to be more spendy.

#27 ac12

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 17:38

Some thoughts of the nib.

 

I do flex writing and I find that I have to be seated comfortably at a desk/table to do it.  It is slow deliberate writing.  And if you really want to do flex writing, my opinion is to forget a fountain pen and go to a dip pen with a flex nib.  I did.

 

For fast, stand up, in the field, writing on the hood of a car, etc, IMHO a nail (no flex at all) is what you want.  IOW strictly utilitarian, get the job done.

 

From your description of how you write tell me a nail (no flex) is what you need.  Maybe later you can get into flex pens, if you want to.  Many are quite content with ball tips, and rather not deal with the fussy flex nibs.

 

The difficult part for me, is you want a WIDE ball tip nib.  I am more a Fine or Extra Fine writer, so that is uncharted waters for me.

 

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#28 tmenyc

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 18:14

I also have a signature pen -- I sign a couple of hundred checks a week, in 2-3 batches.  I use the Varuna Vishal, an oversize raw ebonite eyedropper with, currently, an Edison M nib unit, although it has also carried Anderson and Goulet B nibs.  I need to sign fast -- have been doing it for a lot of years, so read as I sign, and the ink has to dry fast but flow well.  Over time, I've found vintage Waterman's inks work well, and their Blueblack is IG (vintage only...).  Currently I'm using vintage Parker microfilm black, which is a little grey (this bottle is, others have been black black) but dries very fast.  

 

Using the ED is a little risky, but I keep it filled so it doesn't blurp on a company check. I do keep an old blotter card nearby and keep an eye on the feed to make sure it's not full of ink.

 

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#29 Big_Kahuna

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 19:10

Omg, you just triggered me!

I'd go and cry in the bathroom, but I'm not sure which one I'm supposed to use nowadays :D

 

PAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!  Thanks Jamesbeat!  The humor is well appreciated.

 

Back on topic... I'll check out the Sheaffer No Nonsense as well.



#30 Big_Kahuna

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 19:24

Some thoughts of the nib.

 

...

 

For fast, stand up, in the field, writing on the hood of a car, etc, IMHO a nail (no flex at all) is what you want.  IOW strictly utilitarian, get the job done.

 

From your description of how you write tell me a nail (no flex) is what you need.  Maybe later you can get into flex pens, if you want to.  Many are quite content with ball tips, and rather not deal with the fussy flex nibs.

 

The difficult part for me, is you want a WIDE ball tip nib.  I am more a Fine or Extra Fine writer, so that is uncharted waters for me.

 

gud luk

Hi ac12,

 

That makes perfect sense.  I will need to experiment with this flex thing... I may ultimately get signature pens for both field use and desk use.  Choose the right tool for the job and all that.  For this use case (signature pen per original post), I'm after a thick-lined bold signature that is probably best achieved with your nail/wide-ball-tip-nib recommendation. 

 

I do use other types of pens for other use cases.  Japanese EF or F for marginal notations, F or M for general writing, and cursive italic nibs for personal correspondence or "fancy" labeling projects around the house.

 

I try to keep reminding myself that I've made it almost 5 decades through life using mostly ballpoint pens and somehow survived.  I still use ballpoints when I have to or when the use case is appropriate.  I just prefer to use FPs if I can because I like them.  Little luxuries like these make life a bit more enjoyable.



#31 Big_Kahuna

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 19:37

I also have a signature pen -- I sign a couple of hundred checks a week, in 2-3 batches.  I use the Varuna Vishal, an oversize raw ebonite eyedropper with, currently, an Edison M nib unit, although it has also carried Anderson and Goulet B nibs.  I need to sign fast -- have been doing it for a lot of years, so read as I sign, and the ink has to dry fast but flow well.  Over time, I've found vintage Waterman's inks work well, and their Blueblack is IG (vintage only...).  Currently I'm using vintage Parker microfilm black, which is a little grey (this bottle is, others have been black black) but dries very fast.  

 

Using the ED is a little risky, but I keep it filled so it doesn't blurp on a company check. I do keep an old blotter card nearby and keep an eye on the feed to make sure it's not full of ink.

 

Tim

 

Hi Tim,

 

Thanks for the input.  I did a quick search online and found this Varuna Vishal quite interesting: http://www.andys-pen...k-yellow?page=2.  Looks like I could use it as a C/C pen as well as having the ED option.  Is Andy's the only vendor for these pens?

 

Edited to add:  Further investigation reveals that these pens use the SI C/C system.  Since this use case does not seem to fit with SI C/C,  the ED option seems appealing.  More investigation to follow. 


Edited by bigkahuna, 28 February 2017 - 19:48.


#32 Big_Kahuna

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 20:09

 

Hi Tim,

 

Thanks for the input.  I did a quick search online and found this Varuna Vishal quite interesting: http://www.andys-pen...k-yellow?page=2.  Looks like I could use it as a C/C pen as well as having the ED option.  Is Andy's the only vendor for these pens?

 

Edited to add:  Further investigation reveals that these pens use the SI C/C system.  Since this use case does not seem to fit with SI C/C,  the ED option seems appealing.  More investigation to follow. 

 

More info.  Apparently Ranga pens and Varuna pens are the same pens from the same source in India, just sold under different names.  These look very interesting.  Not sure how an ED Ranga/Varuna might work as a field signature pen, but it looks like a great candidate for a desk pen.  I wonder if there are any problems with putting IG ink into an ebonite ED pen. Hmmmm..... 



#33 ac12

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 20:44

An eyedropper can be a fussy pen.  When the ink level drops to below half, there is a big pocket of air in the pen.  Heat from your hand, could cause the air to expand, which would then force ink out of the pen ... BLOP onto the paper.  They call this "burping."  So if you have to keep the pen more than half full, to avoid 'burping,' then the larger ink capacity of an eye dropper is never really utilized.  So why bother?  This 'burping' is one reason why the eyedropper was replaced by other more user friendly fill methods.

 

It is also messier to load than most any other fill method.

 

Personally I have yet to be convinced of the value of an eyedropper, other than just to have one.


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#34 Big_Kahuna

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 21:16

Good to know re: burping, ac12.  Thanks!  I'm learning that I have lots more to learn. 



#35 Big_Kahuna

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 21:44

Rapido-Eze is miraculous. It got ten years' worth of India ink out of some Osmiroid nibs.

My Sailor Music nib may be a paintbrush, but I don't think it 'catches' at any angle. I'm also wondering whether, given your size requirements, a Pelikan M2x might be on the small side.

 

Hi Sailor Kenshin,

 

Sorry for not responding to your post sooner.  Got distracted, and I have the attention span of a goldfish today.

 

Thank you for the clarification about the Sailor Music nib, in regards to not "catching" at any angles.  I don't think the "paintbrush" aspect is a dealbreaker... if I use a dryer IG ink, wouldn't this tame it down a bit?  Assuming that this might be feasible, this pushes the Sailor MS toward the top of the candidate list along with the Platinum 3776.

 

Your second point regarding the size of the Pelikan M2x is also something I hadn't thought about (but I'm definitely thinking about it now). Just checked online, and it looks like the M2x is very similar in size to the Pilot Prera (125mm vs 121mm capped, respectively).  I'm inclined to agree with you that it is on the small side. Pushes M2x onto backburner, notwithstanding the whole "nail" vs "flex" thing.  I'm pretty sure I need a nail anyway for "signing on the hood of a truck" use case.



#36 Big_Kahuna

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 22:02

Situation Report for Field-Capable Signatory Pen project:

 

1.  Expect Platinum 3776 Century (C nib) to be delivered tonight.  Will begin operational evaluation on receipt.

 

2.  Sailor with MS or Zoom nib is next acquisition target.  Will procure if P3776 exhibits any deficiencies or unsatisfying idiosyncrasies.

 

3.  Pilot 74/742/743 on back burner.  Will consider if Platinum or Sailor do not meet expectations.

 

4.  Requirements clarification:  This particular use case does not fit will with flexy nibs, eyedroppers or excessively diminutive pens.  This clarification disqualifies Pelikan M2x and Ranga/Varuna.  Note:  these pens may be contenders for upcoming "Desk Signatory Pen: philosophy of use" project.



#37 Kelly G

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 22:39

Hey Big, you might consider a Ranga pen that is set up for c/c and screw in nibs.  I am currently using a Ranga 3, a fairly large flat top ebonite pen that is threaded for JoWo nib units.  I purchased two nib units from fpnibs.com for the pen, one a fine and the other a stubbed M, which writes like a western B nib.  The stub is easier to maneuver than an italic and the JoWo nib writes fast and nicely wet.  And, the pen is not all that expensive.  Might be worth a look.  You can get the model 3C which has rounded ends if flat tops are not your deal.

 

The other consideration, of course, is to talk to one of the creative pen turners that hang around here.  They could build you exactly what you want - a bit more expensive but there is something to be said for getting exactly what you want.

 

Good luck in your quest!


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#38 Bo Bo Olson

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 22:47

You might ask why Mark Twain really loved a sack Conklin over ED....or why when in 1912 Sheaffer made the small improvement...inventing the lever filled pen....ED went down hill in  a hurry.

Shaeaffer was easier and faster than Conklin in filling....and so much mess free vs ED filling.

 

ED...Eye droppers have a reputation of burping.

Is not worth having 'two/three days' of ink for burped on signatures....which is why Waterman reputedly invented his version of an ED.


Edited by Bo Bo Olson, 28 February 2017 - 22:49.

German vintage '50-70 semi-flex stubs and those in oblique give the real thing in On Demand line variation. Modern Oblique is a waste of money for a shadow of line variation. Being too lazy to Hunt for affordable vintage oblique pens, lets you 'hunt' for line variation instead of having it.

www.nibs.com/blog/nibster-writes/nibs-germany & https://www.peter-bo...cts/nib-systems,

 

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#39 Sailor Kenshin

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 23:46

Hi Sailor Kenshin,
 
Sorry for not responding to your post sooner.  Got distracted, and I have the attention span of a goldfish today.
 
Thank you for the clarification about the Sailor Music nib, in regards to not "catching" at any angles.  I don't think the "paintbrush" aspect is a dealbreaker... if I use a dryer IG ink, wouldn't this tame it down a bit?  Assuming that this might be feasible, this pushes the Sailor MS toward the top of the candidate list along with the Platinum 3776.
 
Your second point regarding the size of the Pelikan M2x is also something I hadn't thought about (but I'm definitely thinking about it now). Just checked online, and it looks like the M2x is very similar in size to the Pilot Prera (125mm vs 121mm capped, respectively).  I'm inclined to agree with you that it is on the small side. Pushes M2x onto backburner, notwithstanding the whole "nail" vs "flex" thing.  I'm pretty sure I need a nail anyway for "signing on the hood of a truck" use case.



If you have the attention span of a goldfish today, you got me beat. ;)

The Prera's a little pen, but fattish. I have three: ivory, lime, and robin's egg blue. What color 3776? Can we see pics of how it writes for you? Pretty please?

#40 Big_Kahuna

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Posted 01 March 2017 - 00:15

Hi Sailor Kenshin,

 

My Prera is a demonstrator Iro Ai with blue finials.  Great little pen.

 

My 3776 is Chartres Blue.  I'll snap some potato pics after I get it inked up! :)







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