What Decides The Value Of A Pen.

[Jamesbeat]

My favorite "brand name" pen has to be this one from Brooks Brothers.

http://www.brooksbrothers.com/Black-Fountain-Pen-and-Cuff-Link-Set/298F,default,pd.html

 

Don't get me wrong, I love their shirts, but a 'gator skin pen with matching cufflinks?

 

The perfect pen for the clueless nouveau riche 'gent' - a $1,200 Jinhao.

Only people who button all the buttons on their black suit coat need apply

Edited February 23, 2017 by Jamesbeat

[Parker51]

I for one do not buy pens based solely on their brand identity, especially as some brands have become simply names, reflecting neither the origonal employees or management, but rather simply a name purchased or perhaps reclaimed by someone.

In regard to Boss, I likely will not purchase their pen. I believe the brand should have been left to die a natural death just as Messerschmitt was. Why the brand was kept alive after successive mergers and aquisition I do not hazard to guess. Any more discussion would likely be considered political.

[fly_us]

This topic reminds me the copper nib from Boss.

 

/add a facepalm here.

[Jamesbeat]

I for one do not buy pens based solely on their brand identity, especially as some brands have become simply names, reflecting neither the origonal employees or management, but rather simply a name purchased or perhaps reclaimed by someone.

In regard to Boss, I likely will not purchase their pen. I believe the brand should have been left to die a natural death just as Messerschmitt was. Why the brand was kept alive after successive mergers and aquisition I do not hazard to guess. Any more discussion would likely be considered political.

I know what you are referring to and I agree.

[thygreyt]

The right answer is not the one you are looking for...

 

The value of a pen is what you are willing to pay for it

Montblanc sells new 146s for $700, but amazon for 450. Which is right?

 

An interesting experiment in socioeconomics was going to any fast food restaurant at peak hours. Wait for someone to get their order, and because the line is huuuge (20 mins in waiting) you offer to buy the man's food. (He has not even had time to pick up the tray).

 

How much is the food worth? It's worth as much as you are willing to pay and as much as he is willing to sell it for.

[Jamesbeat]

I agree that when pens go over a certain price, then that definitely applies, but for lower prices pens, materials and production costs factor into the retail price a lot more.

 

For instance, you are not going to get a machined acrylic pen with a gold nib for the same price as a Lami Safari.

Conversely, if the Safari cost as much as a machined acrylic pen with a gold nib, nobody would buy it.

 

When you get into 'boutique' pens, I agree that all bets are off, and it depends what someone is willing to pay.

 

What someone is willing to pay may be influenced to an extent by clever marketing, brand name etc.

[jar]

The buyer decides the value of a pen.

[voltron]

I don't know which German pen company Bluey is talking about. He's vague about that too. .

 

I am not sure as well but taking his previous posts into consideration, it seems there is only one German brand he has blind hatred for & it is none other than Pelikan xD

Edited February 24, 2017 by voltron

[yoshipen]

I can really sympathize with the OP's confusion- having spent the last 5 years, new to the fountain pen world, purchasing ever increasingly expensive pens.

 

Today, as I reflect on & get rid of the "cheaper" stuff that I bought 3-5 years ago, I think the main determinant of value that still stands for me is writing experience:

 

The pens that are just the right length for me, with just the right softness/ nib grind/ flow to do a task superbly- those are all staying. As I have collected I have come closer to what I like- the marketing & "value" falls away some and I think about the pen & it's ability to preform the task- whether it's a meeting that I need to take fast notes for (a fountain pen that always starts and writes more like a smooth ballpoint), or a letter I'm writing with some character (a vintage waterman for me).

 

I wish that I had gone to more pen shows & pen stores- tried out more pens in person- when I started out. At the end of the day the pen with the least value is the one I don't use.

[Bluey]

I am not sure as well but taking his previous posts into consideration, it seems there is only one German brand he has blind hatred for & it is none other than Pelikan xD

Bo Bo was a tad slow that day. It's not at all a "blind hatred". It's much more a reasoned distaste for their business practices for increasing prices while not addressing obvious quality control issues as well as rehashing designs(each new pen is just the same design in different colours). I think that's fair.

 

I'm the same to any company that does that.

Edited February 24, 2017 by Bluey

[Buzz_130]

This thread is the textbook answer to how the buyer places value on pens. Some don't find value in brands and won't pay any price.

 

Another nod to ac12 for his analysis. But I'll also add a piece not just on marketing but on the brand itself. I can market "high-end" products (new Esterbrook?), but the brand must support the quality, material, and prestige that the marketing is pushing.

 

Buzz

[voltron]

Bo Bo was a tad slow that day. It's not at all a "blind hatred". It's much more a reasoned distaste for their business practices for increasing prices while not addressing obvious quality control issues as well as rehashing designs(each new pen is just the same design in different colours). I think that's fair.

 

I'm the same to any company that does that.

You have every right to claim whatever you want but your statements made in https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/317405-m805-stiff-nib/ say otherwise. Others have already said enough on this matter in that thread but I'd still like to offer of my 2 cents on this matter. I have used 20+ Pelikan pens since 1997 including entry level Pelikanos, Future, Stola, Classic M200/M205, Souveran M400 & several spare nibs as well & there wasn't even a single one which had any issues right out of the box or anything which made me question their quality control. If you have been unlucky with one of your purchases then it doesn't mean the company is bad. Regarding "rehashing designs", I don't know why you want them to do it as their designs have been very successful & you don't change anything which not only works but has been massively successful for close to a century as well. Experimentation with designs, if deemed necessary, should only be done on new models leaving current models unchanged. If you don't like designs of a particular pen company then don't buy them & choose some other company while remaining quite about it. I am not too comfortable using those pens which are designed in such a way that they force you to grip them in a particular way but you you will never see me bashing those pens because I might not be very comfortable using them but most of the other people love them for their design & how they write.

 

I purchased my first fountain pen in 1997 as a 10 year old student from stationery section of the local super market & was presented with a blank paper & ink to test if it worked as it should. At that time I did not understand the logic behind doing that but when I purchased my second pen that year from a stationer who stocked Parker, Pelikan, Schneider & so many other local, Chinese & other brands I asked him the reason for presenting ink & paper to test the nibs and he told me that he ( and his family ) has been in stationery business for 50+ years and in their experience 5 to 10% of the nibs that reach to them exhibit faulty behavior like skipping, hard starts, misaligned tines etc & that the statement was valid for all pen brand that they have ever sold. You should keep in mind that quality control people are also humans & can make mistakes just like other human being. Lamy make nice pens & have an automated system to test pens at their factory by dipping them into ink so they should all work perfectly right out of the box right? But still in my own experience & taking several reviews over the internet into account the fault ratio seems to be same as with any other brand.

 

If you want your pens to write smoothly right out of the box without misaligned tines or hard starts then when buying from a B & M store, ask for a piece of paper & ink and test it there. If you see any anything faulty, explain the issue to them & ask for another one to be tested. Repeat the process if necessary until you find one working correctly. Or if you are like me & like to order pens online then don't fall prey to cheapest deal available & buy from someone who understands fountain pens & also has experience not only in selling but also repairing/fixing them. There are several retailers in US, UK & other parts of the world offer testing & tuning of pens purchased from them without any extra charges. If you don't do that & order pen from a website offering cheapest possible deal & unluckily end up with a faulty pen and then instead of returning or exchanging it you try to condemn the company for poor quality control without offering credible and objective evidence the other 95% of people who have had good experience with that company are going to perceive your claims as just falsehoods and inflammatory speech.

[Bluey]

You have every right to claim whatever you want but your statements made in https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/317405-m805-stiff-nib/ say otherwise. Others have already said enough on this matter in that thread but I'd still like to offer of my 2 cents on this matter. I have used 20+ Pelikan pens since 1997 including entry level Pelikanos, Future, Stola, Classic M200/M205, Souveran M400 & several spare nibs as well & there wasn't even a single one which had any issues right out of the box or anything which made me question their quality control. If you have been unlucky with one of your purchases then it doesn't mean the company is bad. Regarding "rehashing designs", I don't know why you want them to do it as their designs have been very successful & you don't change anything which not only works but has been massively successful for close to a century as well. Experimentation with designs, if deemed necessary, should only be done on new models leaving current models unchanged. If you don't like designs of a particular pen company then don't buy them & choose some other company while remaining quite about it. I am not too comfortable using those pens which are designed in such a way that they force you to grip them in a particular way but you you will never see me bashing those pens because I might not be very comfortable using them but most of the other people love them for their design & how they write.

 

I purchased my first fountain pen in 1997 as a 10 year old student from stationery section of the local super market & was presented with a blank paper & ink to test if it worked as it should. At that time I did not understand the logic behind doing that but when I purchased my second pen that year from a stationer who stocked Parker, Pelikan, Schneider & so many other local, Chinese & other brands I asked him the reason for presenting ink & paper to test the nibs and he told me that he ( and his family ) has been in stationery business for 50+ years and in their experience 5 to 10% of the nibs that reach to them exhibit faulty behavior like skipping, hard starts, misaligned tines etc & that the statement was valid for all pen brand that they have ever sold. You should keep in mind that quality control people are also humans & can make mistakes just like other human being. Lamy make nice pens & have an automated system to test pens at their factory by dipping them into ink so they should all work perfectly right out of the box right? But still in my own experience & taking several reviews over the internet into account the fault ratio seems to be same as with any other brand.

 

If you want your pens to write smoothly right out of the box without misaligned tines or hard starts then when buying from a B & M store, ask for a piece of paper & ink and test it there. If you see any anything faulty, explain the issue to them & ask for another one to be tested. Repeat the process if necessary until you find one working correctly. Or if you are like me & like to order pens online then don't fall prey to cheapest deal available & buy from someone who understands fountain pens & also has experience not only in selling but also repairing/fixing them. There are several retailers in US, UK & other parts of the world offer testing & tuning of pens purchased from them without any extra charges. If you don't do that & order pen from a website offering cheapest possible deal & unluckily end up with a faulty pen and then instead of returning or exchanging it you try to condemn the company for poor quality control without offering credible and objective evidence the other 95% of people who have had good experience with that company are going to perceive your claims as just falsehoods and inflammatory speech.

Where you've claimed that I supposedly stated otherwise, you've completely lost me.

 

Saying they don't have issues isn't going to make it true. I didn't say the company is bad, I just said I have distaste for their business practices that's all.

 

As for Lamy with their automation, it's no good doing so unless they act upon any issues found. Dipping it in ink merely gives a false sense of reassurance. Some of the train wrecks I've seen coming out of their plant are amusing. I saw one once where the nib had no slit.

Edited February 25, 2017 by Bluey

[Astronymus]

Even following ISO9001 won't avoid all faults. There is no 100% quality control with such volumes in production.

[max dog]

The Lamy Safari is made of plastic, has a steel nib and an ink window. This pen is cheap.

The Pelikan M20x is also made of plastic, has a steel nib and an ink window, a piston fill and is much more expensive than the Lamy. Even the cartridge version is more expensive. Why is this?

 

The Kaweco AL Sport is a lot more expensive than the classic. Why such a big jump in price for the Kaweco?

It's quite simple. There are two things at play here:

1..People like shiny things. It's human nature. The shinier it is, the more they are willing to pay for it.

2..Fountain pens are shiny, precious things of desire, and the fountain pen industry survives because fountain pens are shiny not utilitarian.

 

There is nothing utilitarian about a fountain pen. The only utilitarian writing implement is the disposable ball point pen which made the fountain pen obsolete as a writing technology. A BIC is all you need to write. Everything else is luxury.

 

There are people willing to pay a premium for shiny things, at all price points depending on their budget and financial means. Pelikan is after the more upscale group than the Lamy by making their M200 shinier than the Safari.. The fountain pen industry survives/thrives by capitalizing on peoples natural tendency to pay a premium for shiny things across a broad spectrum of price points.

 

Like fountain pens, type writers became an obsolete technology. In contrast the type writer company's like Smith/Corona in the 80s and 90s failed to realize they needed to transform their core product, the typewriter, into a shiny product rather than remaining as a purely utilitarian tool in advent of the new and rising technologies like computers and word processors. They competed directly with the very utilitarian computer and word processor industry and utterly failed to survive.

Edited February 26, 2017 by max dog

[Astronymus]

There is nothing utilitarian about a fountain pen. The only utilitarian writing implement is the disposable ball point pen which made the fountain pen obsolete as a writing technology. A BIC is all you need to write. Everything else is luxury.

 

I've never been happy with ball points. The writing experience and quality aren't the same. They may be more durable under some special conditions but the performance has never been as good as with a fountain pen for me. I don't think performance and quality are luxury but have to be taken into the equation of efficiency.

 

Like fountain pens, type writers became an obsolete technology. In contrast the type writer company's like Smith/Corona in the 80s and 90s failed to realize they needed to transform their core product, the typewriter, into a shiny product rather than remaining as a purely utilitarian tool in advent of the new and rising technologies like computers and word processors. They competed directly with the very utilitarian computer and word processor industry and utterly failed to survive.

I doubt one can compare the type writer and fountain pen industry. A typewriter is inferior to the capabilities of a full digitized writing system on a computer. The performance is better and the usability absolutely superior to type writers.

 

The type writers extinction is progress where the fountain pen's replacement by ball points is a wrong track.

Edited February 26, 2017 by Astron

[Astronymus]

double post

 

Moderators are welcome to delete.

Edited February 26, 2017 by Astron

[max dog]

 

I've never been happy with ball points. The writing experience and quality aren't the same. They may be more durable under some special conditions but the performance has never been as good as with a fountain pen for me. I don't think performance and quality are luxury but have to be taken into the equation of efficiency.

 

I doubt one can compare the type writer and fountain pen industry. A typewriter is inferior to the capabilities of a full digitized writing system on a computer. The performance is better and the usability absolutely superior to type writers.

 

The type writers extinction is progress where the fountain pen's replacement by ball points is a wrong track.

The points you make may be valid to fountain pen people like you and me, but for the vast majority of the population, the fountain pen is as obsolete as the type writer. They won't appreciate the superior writing experience and quality aspects of fountain pens over ball points as we do. In the grand scheme of things, fountain pen manufacturers like Pelikan and Lamy have to present more than just the utilitarian aspect of fountain pens to attract ballpoint users to try fountain pens. If it's just about writing, 99.9% of the people would prefer the durability and convenience ball points offer. They have to believe fountain pens offer something more, like history, tradition, craftsmanship, quality materials, art, etc...and they all come at a cost.

Edited February 26, 2017 by max dog

[TSherbs]

There is no objective "value" of anything. Prices are determined two ways: advertised price and actual price at purchase. And then there is cost of manufacture, market, and distribution.

[corgicoupe]

Then there is intrinsic value! I have my dad's 1948 Parker "51" Vacumatic, and a T1947 Parker 51 that I got for $50, and paid $20 for restoration. What are the values of the two pens? Their value to me? You see the difference...

 

A "gift" pen will have intrinsic value; a "purchased" pen will have intrinsic value if it marks an event, a place, or a person.

Edited February 26, 2017 by corgicoupe