What Decides The Value Of A Pen.

[Lugworm]

I may need a bit of educating. Here are two scenarios that I don't understand

 

The Lamy Safari is made of plastic, has a steel nib and an ink window. This pen is cheap.

The Pelikan M20x is also made of plastic, has a steel nib and an ink window, a piston fill and is much more expensive than the Lamy. Even the cartridge version is more expensive. Why is this?

 

Scenario 2

The Lamy Safari and Kaweco Classic Sport (plastic) are similarly priced. Fine, I get that.

The Lamy Al Star is a little more expensive than the safari. The Kaweco AL Sport is a lot more expensive than the classic. Why such a big jump in price for the Kaweco?

 

All this is new to me and I'm probably thinking a bit two dimensionally. I'm guessing marketing and the brand image may have something to do with it.

[Astronymus]

Most of it is indeed marketing and the promise of good feeling wielding an expensive pen. Like in any other business.

[sandy101]

Materials, marketing and the vanity (or stupidity) of the purchaser.

[TheRealMikeDr]

To some degree it's the cost of materials.

To a larger degree it's the amount of automation (or lack thereof) involved in making it.

The rest is what the market will bear. Marketing. Perceived value etc.

 

No different than women's handbags for instance. You can get a decent bag at Target or pay 200 times more for a bag with a Coach tag on it. You can guess which kind my wife prefers...

[praxim]

Whether you are comparing pens, handbags, cars or dishwashers, this is an area rife with different needs, dodgy analyses, and with opinions even bigger than the marketing budgets. I suggest to Lugworm that they they try stuff, choose what they like and be happy within themselves.

[s_t_e_v_e]

Materials, marketing and the vanity (or stupidity) of the purchaser.

 

+1 except that I would change the order a bit:

Vanity (or stupidity) of the purchaser, marketing, materials

[cat]

With clothing, sometimes you are paying big money for a brand and actually getting low quality goods, while sometimes you are paying for higher quality hand construction, gorgeous materials, tailored fit, and elegant style.

 

For pens, I don't know what the criteria are for something to be considered top-tier quality and I would like to learn more about this too. For example, how much value can be attributed to various karats of gold nibs, or brass/silver/plastic/etc bodies, types of filling systems, writing quality and I'm sure there's a lot more.

 

I know with clothing there are very specific features you can look at to determine if the article is top-tier or not and the price is justified. What are these features with fountain pens?

[ac12]

Perceived value is what the buyer thinks the product is worth. And there are MANY facets to looking at determining value.

 

Marketing can drive perceived value. The luxury market is full of these; Rolls Royce, Rolex, Montblanc, Coach, etc.

 

Is a MB worth the HUNDREDS of dollars that it costs?

- From a functional perspective, NO.

- But from a status perspective, VERY MUCH SO. It is a status adornment. "I have arrived." This is marketing at work.

 

Similarly, is a ROLEX worth the hundreds or thousands of dollars that is costs?

- Functionally, I can buy a $100 watch to do the same. And one can argue that an inexpensive digital watch is more accurate.

- A ROLEX is a status symbol, even more so than a MB pen. Again, marketing at work.

 

Is a Leica camera really worth that much more than a Cannon or Nikon?

- Maybe to the really detailed camera people, but to most people No.

- Look at all the people using just cell phones to take pictures instead of even compact cameras. One can ague that most people don't care about getting even near that level of quality. Good enough is good enough.

 

Why do so many people want a gold nib rather than a stainless nib?

- The perceived value of the gold nib; perceived quality, cost, bling, etc.

- To me a gold nib is only to match the color of the pen. I would just as well have a stainless or gold plated nib.

 

Why does the much more expensive Lamy Studio use the same nibs as the lowly Safari?

- Lamy had to make a gold nib for the Studio, to bump the Studio to the higher price tier.

 

For some of us, a pen is simply a writing tool. A $15 Pilot Metro writes just as well as a $500 MB, so why would I want a MB? From that perspective a MB is only worth $15. For that mater, why pay even $25 for fountain pen when a stick pen cost less than $1.

 

Some of the $1,000+ pens are literally works of art. Art using a pen as a platform. So it is then evaluated and priced as ART, not a pen. I have never understood how art prices work, but have seen paintings that cost more than my house.

Edited February 22, 2017 by ac12

[inkstainedruth]

Well, to answer Lugworm's question, I have *both* a (new) Safari and an (older -- 1990s era) M200 (okay, well, I *also* had two M205 Café Crèmes but I lost them... ).

There's more difference than just the fill system involved. The M200 has a better grade of materials, and those have a better feel to them. I think the manufacturing is a little better. The quality of nibs seem to be a bit better, as well, in that they are removable nib units. The M200 is also a bit heavier and just plain *feels* more substantial (but not so heavy as to be hard to use or un-ergonomic, even when posted).

That being said, I had problems with the nibs on the Café Crèmes, in that the first one had bad skipping issues (likely baby's bottom on the tipping) and the second one -- which I got used -- initially had an italic medium nib which was a gusher even by Pelikan standards of wet; both nibs had to be tuned a bit (I had the work done at pen shows, so it was only the cost of the actual work in addition to the show admission -- I could have the work done more or less on the spot, and test the nibs to see if they were to my liking). The flip side is that the piston filler system in the M200 holds more ink than the converter in the Safari does. And I held out on getting a Safari for a long time, because I wasn't sure I could get used to the triangular grip.

Ironically, the Safari cost me more than the M200 I have left -- someone gave the M200 to me as a kind of gag gift, after getting it on Freecycle.

Hope this helps.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[bigkahuna]

Perceived value is what the buyer thinks the product is worth. And there are MANY facets to looking at determining value.

 

Marketing can drive perceived value. The luxury market is full of these; Rolls Royce, Rolex, Montblanc, Coach, etc.

 

Is a MB worth the HUNDREDS of dollars that it costs?

- From a functional perspective, NO.

- But from a status perspective, VERY MUCH SO. It is a status adornment. "I have arrived." This is marketing at work.

 

Similarly, is a ROLEX worth the hundreds or thousands of dollars that is costs?

- Functionally, I can buy a $100 watch to do the same. And one can argue that an inexpensive digital watch is more accurate.

- A ROLEX is a status symbol, even more so than a MB pen. Again, marketing at work.

 

Is a Leica camera really worth that much more than a Cannon or Nikon?

- Maybe to the really detailed camera people, but to most people No.

- Look at all the people using just cell phones to take pictures instead of even compact cameras. One can ague that most people don't care about getting even near that level of quality. Good enough is good enough.

 

Why do so many people want a gold nib rather than a stainless nib?

- The perceived value of the gold nib; perceived quality, cost, bling, etc.

- To me a gold nib is only to match the color of the pen. I would just as well have a stainless or gold plated nib.

 

Why does the much more expensive Lamy Studio use the same nibs as the lowly Safari?

- Lamy had to make a gold nib for the Studio, to bump the Studio to the higher price tier.

 

For some of us, a pen is simply a writing tool. A $15 Pilot Metro writes just as well as a $500 MB, so why would I want a MB? From that perspective a MB is only worth $15. For that mater, why pay even $25 for fountain pen when a stick pen cost less than $1.

 

Some of the $1,000+ pens are literally works of art. Art using a pen as a platform. So it is then evaluated and priced as ART, not a pen. I have never understood how art prices work, but have seen paintings that cost more than my house.

ac12 nailed it. The value of any commodity, good or service is determined on what the purchaser is willing to pay. Each purchaser may have different criteria for what meets his/her desires or needs.

[Bo Bo Olson]

The 200 has better balance than the Safari...the 400 better materials.....in the body.

Comes to the nib...I prefer the 200's springy true regular flex to the fat and blobby semi-nail of the modern Pelikan 400/600.

 

Just because a pen is made of metal don't make it worth a lot more, unless silver or a Dupont. You can get many a cheap metal Chinese pen.....that will do the job too.

 

I have MB's one is gorgeous, was it really worth E/$500 on sale? 1/3 off the $/E750. A Virginia Woolf LE, limited Edition....well some 16,000 were made...not quite so limited. Had I never used that pen...kept it in the box...I could now get $750 for it. I like the my eyes only bling of the nib.

It is a bling pen...quite striking. I saw it from 10 yards....and it drew me like a magnet.

Well somehow, I couldn't afford any ink or paper or another pen for 3/4ths a year. Was it worth it?....One does here and there need a pure pretty pen....watch out there is some scrawny half naked midget trying to swap an old skinny gold ring for a Virginia Woolf.

 

With permission of pentime.com...professional pictures vs finger paint.

http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/o707/boboolson1/IMG_0625-1_zpsdsjkvmo8.jpg

http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/o707/boboolson1/IMG_0619-1%20-%20Copy_zps6csukbji.jpg

 

http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/o707/boboolson1/IMG_0641-1_zpsf9zit5tg.jpg

 

 

This pen a medium large Geha 725 is better....great balance, very sleek, rolled gold trim can't see it but the clips one of the best ever for class. It's a semi-flex inlaid nib....and I got lucky for $/E50...it was a bit used...laid around for 40 years.....we say vintage. Lucky in before I got it, they were going for E100, a week later I saw two go for E25...they go for E50-70 today. The classiest pen I own. I do have a few running tight for second place.

I really got to make a picture of that clip....two slightly curved lines make it Art, where others with two lines are just two lines.

 

It was designed and priced it's day in the high end, to stomp MB into the ground and did so.

With permission of Penboard De.

http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/o707/boboolson1/Goldschwing%20nib-2%20-%20Copy_zpslfjx1ael.jpg

http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/o707/boboolson1/geha1%20-%20Copy_zpstockjbgs.jpg

Edited February 22, 2017 by Bo Bo Olson

[BillH]

...snip...

All this is new to me and I'm probably thinking a bit two dimensionally. I'm guessing marketing and the brand image may have something to do with it.

 

 

Not to be disrespectful but, uh, does your wife know you think this way?

[Bluey]

Ac12 hit the nail on the head. It's what you're willing to pay.

 

Brand value takes up the lions share for most brands. Limited editions also boosts the price considerably. As for gold nibs, the amount of gold in most fountain pen nibs would not be worth even a fraction of what they cost if you melted it down. You would be lucky if you got a fiver.

 

One particular German brand, for example, was previously known for making low end school pens but are now attempting to reposition themselves as a high end pen but with little justification for doing so. The bigwigs in that company made this decision, not the market.

This is a common business practice in other spheres too. In the fashion market, "Burberry, for instance, said as recently as March that it would raise prices to increase its appeal to the upper end of its customer base and attract new, wealthier customers.".

 

That's how the market works. You change your image using carefully crafted marketing and your prices to reflect your new positioning.

[Sasha Royale]

The price is as low as it needs to be, in order that the buyer will be willing to buy.

The price is as high as the seller can raise it, and still sustain the desired quantity of sales. In the case of collectible fountain pens, there is no rule or logic. Fountain pen collectors are crazy..

Edited February 23, 2017 by Sasha Royale

[praxim]

If it is given that a pen is adequately defined as a writing tool, a finger dipped in ink is a better yet cheaper writing tool. The line variations and unique characteristics available from different fingers, from change in finger nail angle, and the cut and grind of particular nails are practically endless. It is therefore a mystery why someone would spend $1 on an obviously less capable contrivance like a fountain pen.

 

Worse, there are people who pay good money to stay in a hotel then take from their room the ballpoint whose entire existence is owed solely to marketing and for which they pay in their room rate. What a waste. Indeed, some people are known to prefer to keep the rain off them at the Hilton rather than the Holiday Inn, and all they get for it is a different marketing label on the ballpoint, don't they?

 

So, why does anyone use a fountain pen, or one pen over another? Why did they ever in the past? Could it be there are a multitude of things inadequately captured by "to write", and the analyses opinions which flow from that?

 

 

Actually, BillH already managed the point delightfully in his post. I was composing this, so I finished anyway. In practical terms there are cost, price and value. The first is fairly well definable but relates to quality (define that as well) non-linearly, the second relates to demand and the third is in the gift of the potential purchaser. Generic comments from a personal position on value do not wield the matter.

[Jamesbeat]

Whether the pen is injection molded or machined will make a huge difference to the price.

Injection molds are expensive up front, but the price per unit is pennies after that.

 

The extreme example would be a custom pen made on a manual lathe.

I made one for myself recently that took eight hours from raw materials to finished pen.

I didn't make it for sale, but if I had, I would have based the price on eight hours machining time plus the cost of materials.

[zaddick]

The price is as low as it needs to be, in order that the buyer will be willing to buy.

The price is as high as the seller can raise it, and still sustain the desired quantity of sales. In the case of collectible fountain pens, there is no rule or logic. Fountain pen collectors are crazy..

Uh, yuuup!

[JuInd]

The comparison should be between Montblanc M & Pilot 845, some people said the former has a soul and the latter is just ... a plastic pen. Well, it seems pens which have souls inside their bodies cost more $$$. On the other hand, when I lost my Metro, I didn't lost any soul, I replaced it with another, simply a painless process.

[Bo Bo Olson]

I don't know which German pen company Bluey is talking about. He's vague about that too. .

 

Lamy made good medium quality pens the '50's 27 & 99 before they moved into the School pen market with the Safari in @'93, until the Persona which was anyone's top of the line. In the '30's Lamy made the Orthos, reputed to have been a good pen.

 

Not counting the 2000 (which I didn't like the looks of in '67 when it came out.....and a number of other good Lamy pens.

In Lamy mostly makes nails I don't follow them much. I will say every time I went looking for a used 2000 there were none.

Some say the 2000 has some give to it's gold nib...others say it's a nail.

The Persona lasted from 1990-2000 I have a first year model, an 18 K nail....was a worthless OB is now a nice CI.

 

I'd been expecting the new Persona; the Imporium for a few years, since I took a newspaper won factory tour of Lamy. The chief engineer said they'd be coming out with it with in the year...took them 2 more years to do so.

 

The Imporium was designed by the same man who designed the Persona, the alternate design of the Persona; but it has a much better and different nib than what Lamy had been doing....even going back to the Artus...Lamy's pen with the old fashioned regular flex nibs.

It is a very good 'Springy' nib like a Falcon and IMO better than MB's Very Good tine bend, but only 2X tine spread....instead of doing 3 X for semi-flex. :doh:So very close....and missed.

Some sharp looking nibs too, in three or four versions.

 

MB use to make school pens, the 3xxx and then had other lower priced pens like I think it's the Monte Rosa. They once had much cheaper ball points too. I have one from the '70's.

 

Kaweco was once the best nib in Germany, and perhaps the best pen...ahead of Soennecken and MB...before 1930. When the company went bankrupt...due to the owner losing his shirt on the market not the company. The new owner cut the labor intensive US Morton style nib.

Even so the Dia was a good pen.

 

I don't know if Online has tried to go high end. I chase old used pens, not new ones....affordable ones.

 

The new pen in Germany is Boss. It's high end, with out a reason....out side it's made by Boss, for fountain pen ignoramuses.

Edited February 23, 2017 by Bo Bo Olson

[ac12]

Made by Boss, or contracted by Boss to some brand-X company to make.

 

Maybe like the many Pierre Cardan pen that I've seen. Some were of a quality that would make a Safari look like a high end pen. Got a PC pen/pencil set at a garage sale, it was a joke, hardly worth the 50 cents that I paid for it.