Could An Oblique Be For Me?

[jhawkes]

I have a pilot ch92 that I love with a broad nib. Lately I've been thinking of getting it ground down to a medium stub or ci. I do rotate my pen when writing quite a bit, and I'm wondering if it would be worth it to get an oblique? I have used stubs before and haven't had any issues, but I don't get the line variation I would if I held the nib straight on the page. Any suggestions? I'm super excited to get my first custom grind and am thinking of going with Dan smith.

[Bo Bo Olson]

Do Not waste your money on a modern Oblique. ...nails, semi-nails and even the old fashioned regular flex, that I call 'true' regular flex are worthless for line variation. Stub and CI is all that can be done to those nibs.

The difference as one fine poster stated is Stub and CI is 100% line variation. Semi/maxi-semi-flex Oblique is line variation on demand. Press a touch harder get more.

 

Real Oblique is found in vintage '50-65 semi-flex German pens. As far as I know only there.

Geha 790/760 and only those with three ring on the cap jewel. Torpedo shaped was real IN back then, Swan, 400nn and 146/9.http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/o707/boboolson1/B6FmJVwB2kKGrHqEOKm4EyyFEhzKZBMwIPTRw_12_zpskew3nmrm.jpg

Rare '59 version with three real rings. It did clean up better than the picture. I bought the pen and get the picture for free is the way I see it. I take horrible pictures.

http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/o707/boboolson1/img8414j_zpscuc3gw3n.jpg

if you are lucky can be gotten on German Ebay for E19, more than likely E30-40 or up to E50. You need to make sure he takes Paypal in bank transfers outside the EU cost $35....and he must ship outside of Germany. There are many provincial Germans who fear other countries postal services.

 

The Geha School pen looks similar but has only the clip ring. It is a Best Buy for a regular flex nib at E12-19.....of course you can buy from a German Pirate on US Ebay for only $89.00.

It's a very good pen, but is not a stub regular flex. It is much like the very much more expensive Pelikan 120 school pen, with an American Bump Under.

 

Pelikan 140 costs now E70-90-110 . '50's 400/400nn cost E90-110-120.....paying more is idiotic.

If you hunt and have patience you can get either cheaper.

 

OK, I had a Lamy Persona that was an 18K nail, in OB....it is now CI and out and not in the box.

I had a Lamy 27 nail OM, that I sold. No line variation.

I have a W. Germany 200 with the nib that has a slight bit more spring than the '90's in OM.... no real line variation unless I mash the hell out of it, which is not what one wants.

 

Some folks are left eye dominate, so automatically cant their nib...that and some of the lefthanders, also can use a modern no line variation nib.

I had always wondered back in the day when most everyone used a fountain pen in school, in there was always a couple in class that canted their nib. My wife is very left eye dominate. It shows in her shooting, and how she cants the fountain pen nib.

 

Inked right now, I have two '50's semi-flex Pelikan 400's, one in OB and the other in OM.

Vintage is 1/2 a width narrower than modern.

 

I started out with a Pelikan 140 OB....and am glad I did. The sweet spot is wider and makes it easier to learn to use. A vintage OB or B is a writing nib not a modern signature nib. It is like a modern fat M.

 

(Semi-flex should be able to over live your ham fistedness. Most of us are ham fisted, I was when I got my 140 OB. It took me some three months to get that tamed.

I have some 26 or so semi-flex and 16 Maxi-semi-flex nibs. All luck of the draw outside the Osmia.

 

If you have a semi-vintage 'true' regular flex or a Pelikan 200, it can be mashed to a 3 X tine spread vs a light down stroke.

Semi-flex needs half that pressure.

Maxi-semi-flex half of that or 1/4th the pressure needed to mash a 'true' regular flex nib to 3X.

Neither of those two are anywhere near a superflex nib....really. some though see only semi-flex.

Semi-flex is 'almost' flex, but that ALMOST is quite big.

 

First step in superflex, not getting into tine spread, but pressure, is Easy Full Flex and that needs only 1/8th the pressure to mash a 'true' regular flex. Wet Noodle needs 1/16th....so one can see semi-flex is a very long way from 'FLEX' .

 

Then there is the grind. I have some 13 or so '50-65 German Obliques, and noticed most are @ 15 Degree grind, but some are @ 30 degree grind. It is all luck of the draw, in most who sell gramps old pens have no idea of anything much less grind angle.

In fact many with vintage German semi or maxi-semi-flex nibs have no idea either.

I have both grinds in OBB, OB, OM and OF.....pure luck.

 

So those pens are made to post, they get their great balance form posting. The 140 is a medium-small pen that posts long. As long as the 400. The 400nn is a medium long pen.

 

First look to see what grind angle it has.

@15 degree grind, one posts the cap so the clip is aligned between the slit and the edge of the nib.

Grasp the pen so. Then just put it down on the paper and write. The angle will sit properly on the paper.

@30 degree grind, align the clip to the outside edge of the nib, grasp the pen so, and write.

The nib placed in the proper angle will write well giving you all the line variation with out you having to do anything.

Do Not Try to make the nib do anything....it will do it all on it's own. So don't twist your hand, your arm and don't hang from the chandelier; trying to do something.

 

The'50-65 nibs are all (of the makes with semi&maxi-semi-flex......non Lamy) are stubs, have semi or maxi-semi-flex so all you have to do is write.

Outside of Osmia/Osmia-Faber-Castel, semi&maxi is pure luck. Osmia with the number in the diamond, is semi-flex. Surpra nibs are maxi.

 

Once there was the fabled 'corner pen shop'. It could be that the 30 degree was adjusted from 15 degrees to 30 degrees there.....that is a WAG.

One of the reason why that might be so, is I have not run into any @20-22 degree grinds as of yet if it was just sloppy Factory grinds.

 

Do Not waste money on a modern oblique...all you can do with it is make it a stub or CI.

I do want you to enjoy real oblique nibs that actually give you real line variation.

Edited February 22, 2017 by Bo Bo Olson

[zaddick]

Have you used oblique pens before? They don't necessarily add variation and some modern ones are kinda blobby. If you are set on trying one, consider an oblique with a CI grind to give you more variation. I have an M800 OB I had made a CI and it had been a pleasure. The variation happens more in the diagonal directions than the north/south of a typical stub or CI.

 

I can recommend Jesse of Pen Tuner as another person to consider grinding a pen. You actually may be able to get him to grind a Jinhao 159 for you first so you can gltest the grind. He used to offer the cheap pens with his CI grind so you could test before committing. I think they were $15 or so.

[Bo Bo Olson]

Modern is worthless, even down to the 200's oblique nib. I've tried one nib I trans-mailed, in a number of Germans won't ship out of Germany. I have a W. Germany 200 oblique.

 

I can not say enough....the vintage German pens with a tad of flex, from the '50-60's are stubbish to start and than semi-flex is added. I have some 13 Obliques from that era. From OBB, OB, OM & OF. I have a couple inked right now, an OB&OM.

 

I had a Lamy '27? OM....nail, that I sold. I had a Lamy Persona 18K nail OB turned into CI, by Pendleton Brown.

That was one pretty and worthless pen....with no line variation at all. As a modern oblique it was in the box. As CI always out....it has it's own play pen, in it don't play well with others, in the black titanium oxide eats other pens.

 

But having so many German '50's era obliques use them most.

I do favor taking modern boring nibs and making stubs or CI out of them so they have some character. The nib is no longer OB, but CI.

 

http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/o707/boboolson1/IMG_3985_zpsbwkki74c.jpg

 

http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/o707/boboolson1/IMG_3994_zpsnmbvoez0.jpg

Edited February 22, 2017 by Bo Bo Olson

[vickiehof]

Modern is worthless, even down to the 200's oblique nib. I've tried one nib I trans-mailed, in a number of Germans won't ship out of Germany. I have a W. Germany 200 oblique.

 

I can not say enough....the vintage German pens with a tad of flex, from the '50-60's are stubbish to start and than semi-flex is added. I have some 13 Obliques from that era. From OBB, OB, OM & OF. I have a couple inked right now, an OB&OM.

 

Dear Bo Bo,

 

I agree with you.

 

Here's your post on June 19, 2016 regarding the Clipper,

 

“...I have some that look similar to yours with Clipper marked on them...so was '50's, with the little plane with three tails on the nib. Marked Clipper on the cap, in gold lettering. The 'Clipper' was the other name for the Super Constellation, one of the great prop passenger planes. It was Ike's Air Force One. My Clipper semi-flex nibs....more than likely Heidelberg nibs....”

 

I have a maroon Clipper that's marked OB on the barrel. It has a "springy" nib, piston filling and still works perfectly after 50+ years.

I didn't know about its history, or that it was made in Germany in the 1950's. I'll include your description in my notes about the pen.

I got it on Ebay for $21 in 2011, so that might be an inexpensive option.

 

 

Edited February 22, 2017 by vickiehof

[Bo Bo Olson]

I paid E25 for mine...but the price if you can find two idiots on Ebay is $125.......

Not Wearever, but both came in a Wearever box. Could be Mulchner(sp)

Mine are semi-flex...but if yours is springy so be it....it depends on how much pressure is needed in comparison to a 'true' regular flex nib one needs to mash it 3X.

 

One of the prettiest planes ever made. Designed by Howard Hughes, and each of the frames is a different size. ....Which made it more expensive all the ugly planes like the DC4-6 and so on used same size frames. I worked on them. It has three tails because no hanger of the time could have taken it with a high single tail.

The DC-3 is 1/3 as long and sat close to the ground, the Connie sat high...and was I believe the first with a nose wheel. ...Unless the B-17 takes that.

 

http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/o707/boboolson1/1024px-SCFA-Connie_zpskiprynlc.jpg

 

http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/o707/boboolson1/cb2_zpsfntjggkc.jpg

http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/o707/boboolson1/cliro1_zpse0wqeqcs.jpg

http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/o707/boboolson1/cliro3_zps1w4yc7li.jpg

Edited February 22, 2017 by Bo Bo Olson

[jhawkes]

Thanks for the advice! I'll just get a medium stub and put off trying an oblique for now 😀

[zaddick]

Modern is worthless,

http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/o707/boboolson1/IMG_3985_zpsbwkki74c.jpg

http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/o707/boboolson1/IMG_3994_zpsnmbvoez0.jpg

 

You know, because you have tried all the modern obliques made, right?

 

These sort of statements don't really help new folks to explore their options.

Edited February 22, 2017 by zaddick

[Bo Bo Olson]

I don't see modern as an 'option' just a compete waste of money! So I tell them that....often as I can.

Once bitten twice shy. So I've been bitten three times.

 

I've tried mine, have had three...that were not semi or Maxi....tried a few more that were not mine. I'm talking about so called Obliques that didn't so much of anything.

They are good if one is left eye dominate, and automatically cant's the nib. I always say that and certain left hand writing styles are good to go with a modern canted oblique nib, in it don't bend, so can be pushed instead of pulled.

 

I had hopes for the W.Germany 200 OM, but it was not quite...even if the W.German nibs are reputed to be a tad springier than the German ones. Good regular don't have enough flex to make it work.

 

You see, I have experienced real line variation in Oblique. I don't think you have.

Tell me about your German '50-65 Obliques.

Why those....well if you have superflex fine. As far as I can tell only Germans make obliques in semi-flex or maxi. I never found any Swan ones in Oblique, when I was looking for Swan...in Swan made from regular flex through to superflex. The other place I'd look for semi-flex or better nibs. Up to 1955, after that they went down hill fast, being murdered by the ball point @ 1960.

 

 

Well do have a 100n with right foot oblique and that is a first stage superflex.

oddly I don't seem to count that. I do have some EF/F Degussa superflex with a tad of Oblique.....don't count them either...more for canted than for any line variation that one sees vs the same nib with out it. I do have hand full of both.

 

I do have 13-15** German obliques from OBB, OB, OM, and OF in a mix of semi& maxi-semi-flex....and I have the sizes listed in both @ 15 and 30 degree grinds.

** When I have enough of a certain nib type, I really don't have to keep exact count.

 

So which nails, semi-nails or 'true' regular flex Obliques do you have with real line variation?

Stubs and CI don't count...for Oblique.

That 18 K OB nail Persona was such a disappointment. Now as CI it isn't.

Edited February 23, 2017 by Bo Bo Olson

[zaddick]

I don't think you have.

Tell me about your German '50-65 Obliques.

 

I am not trying to turn this into a contest. You are very welcomed to share your opinion and I think it is great you offer such detailed posts to new folks. My point was that I think it provides a better service to new FP folks not to speak in such absolutes.

 

And, per your comment above, I never claimed to be an expert in obliques or to share all the experiences you have. But to answer your question specifically on German oblique nibs from war time to the 1960s, I have owned an MB 138 14C OM, an MB 146 14C OM, an MB 250 (139 size) OM in steel, and an MB 250 OB in steel. Now, the last two pens are from before 1950 so technically not in your criteria. Not sure what any of that proves.

Edited February 23, 2017 by zaddick

[Bo Bo Olson]

Good....then you should understand where I'm coming from with German stub semi/maxi-flex nibs. One gets line variation with out real effort.

 

Then the question becomes, which modern obliques gives line variation and how much and at what effort?

Or perhaps what one thinks is line variation, in one is use to a boring ball nib.

 

If I really mash my W.Germany 200 to it's max of 3 X, I can get some line variation Not enough IMO worth the effort of maxing the nib. One is pressing the nib instead of writing with it. (It is sort of stubbish, but I could stub it more.)

Pressing to 2 X requires a bit of effort or being Ham Fisted. In I have many semi&maxi obliques, it is not worth the effort to get some line variation, in it does not 'flow' naturally.

 

I was Ham Fisted before I spent 3 months with my semi-flex OB 140. My Hand became lighter...I was only slightly Ham Fisted, just in time for my maxi 400nn. Not that I had developed the term maxi at that time. It took having some five of them, and one was a Rupp nib with more flex than the rest, to have the of maxi-semi-flex and fit it into my simplistic system of nib flex.

 

One should never (after initial test) max a nib. Richard's article on how to spring a nib says that more or less. And one should not do that often or else $$$. My right foot OF 100n will max at 5X, and I strive never to take it above 4X.

 

If I press like hell I can get 2X tine spread on a semi-nail ( like a P-75) to get 1/2 X on a nail is risking springing it.....have to take up Power Lifting to do that.

 

With Semi or Maxi, you decide which part of a letter to press or which descender to work into fancy.

 

My Hand became much lighter over the time....not as light as it could be. I have to work real hard to get my XXF-BBB 52, to give me XXF, have to think light to get EF in normally I get an F out of that nib....my Hand is still a bit heavy. I strive to never take that nib over BB. Same with my Soennecken Wet Noodle neither being Oblique, has little to do with the discussion; outside of maxing a nib.

 

I was ever so disappointed, when my nail OB Persona gave me nothing in line variation....and I was using shading ink, fairly good paper. As a CI it does very well with line variation.

 

Someone mentioned a Pelikan 200's nib cost $35 in the States, that is a lot of money to give out to find out the oblique nib does little unless pressed to the max all the time. Then there are many other expensive modern nail/semi-nail pens that offer 'oblique' nibs that will be a disappointment.....is that all there is?

What a rip off. ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,unless one is left handed, or left eye dominate and automatically cant's the nib.

 

All they can do is what I did get it stubbed or made CI. And they will never venture into semi-flex oblique and have a lot of fun.

With out pressing hard at all....just that normal first letter pressure and perhaps last letter getting the real accent, the rest of the line variation runs normal with out thought at all.

As one fine poster stated, stubb&CI are 100% line variation always, semi-flex is line variation on demand, and he wasn't talking about obliques.

 

Pick up my '50's 400 OB semi-flex, scribble a line. ....nice little line variation, with out any effort. If I press to 2X I get more line variation....if I use a 30 degree grind more, and if I use a maxi with 30 degrees, I get lots with less effort than with a 15 degree semi.

I did get better line variation on better paper.

 

I do suggest the OB 140 to start with, in I think more 140's are semi-flex than maxi, and semi-flex is sturdy enough to with stand the Ham Fisted, nail and semi-nail user. Vintage OB is like a modern fat M, so it is a writing nib, not a signature nib....and the sweet spot is wide enough to have less trouble adjusting to oblique.

A 'three ring' Geha 790 is much cheaper; has a tad better nib too.

[jhawkes]

I'm not looking for flex,I'm looking on getting an oblique stub because I do cant the nib. I'm just wondering if it's worth it or should I just get a normal stub. When I said line variation I just meant what a stub would give. Because I rotate the nib when I write, I don't get as much from my stubs as I would if I held them more perpendicular to the page. Now Dan smith has an option where you can send in some photos of how you hold the pen, so I'm sure he will grind it how he thinks will fit my writing style.

[Witsius]

I'm not looking for flex,I'm looking on getting an oblique stub because I do cant the nib. I'm just wondering if it's worth it or should I just get a normal stub. When I said line variation I just meant what a stub would give. Because I rotate the nib when I write, I don't get as much from my stubs as I would if I held them more perpendicular to the page. Now Dan smith has an option where you can send in some photos of how you hold the pen, so I'm sure he will grind it how he thinks will fit my writing style.

 

 

If you tend to rotate the nib either to the left or right, then an oblique will probably be a good idea. I find there are a lot of misconceptions out there about what different nib grinds can achieve. Obliques aren't inherently about line variation. You can get an oblique grind with a regular round nib, or you can get an oblique stub, which will yeild line variation like a regular stub, and so on.

 

If you naturally hold the pen so that the nib is rotated, then an oblique may be a good idea. You'll just have to determine whether a right or left foot oblique is what you need, and Dan Smith could no doubt help you figure that out. Oblique nibs were developed specifically for people who naturally hold their pens with the nib rotated.

 

If you tend to start writing with the nib at a normal positsion, and you only start to rotate the nib after writing a few sentences, then an oblique won't help you at all. You'll just need to work on your technique a little bit.

[Bo Bo Olson]

Well, when one is new to pens....sometimes flex is misunderstood. Actually the word 'flex' to many implies a Wet Noodle, which semi-flex is not at all. Semi-flex is actually springy ++. Please read my signature.

 

I do always say if you automatically cant your nib, being left eye dominate??? then a modern oblique could be the way to go....and I just read if it's stubbed enough....that could help line variation.

 

Either way, have fun.

 

And do keep an open mind about '50-60's German obliques....for down the road.

Edited February 23, 2017 by Bo Bo Olson

[Tasmith]

I'm not looking for flex,I'm looking on getting an oblique stub because I do cant the nib. I'm just wondering if it's worth it or should I just get a normal stub. When I said line variation I just meant what a stub would give. Because I rotate the nib when I write, I don't get as much from my stubs as I would if I held them more perpendicular to the page. Now Dan smith has an option where you can send in some photos of how you hold the pen, so I'm sure he will grind it how he thinks will fit my writing style.

I had Linda Kennedy of Indy-Pen Dance make me a cusive italic out of a medium MB 146 last year. She watched me write with the pen before she did any work on the nib. She noted I rotate my pen, so she strongly recommended that I get an oblique with the cursive italic grind. I decide on just the cursive italic (.56mm wide) which is now my favorite pen.

 

In addition to pictures, will it help Dan Smith if you take a short Smartphone video of you writing?

 

Good luck and show us some writing examples of your nib after Dan's work!

 

Here's before and after Linda's work:

 

 

[jhawkes]

Thanks everyone for the suggestions! I'll post an update in a few months when I get my pen back

[ac12]

&)*)*)%$#@$ blasted keyboard, hit the wrong key and lost my post.

 

Problem: If you rotate/roll your pen as you write, you will roll off the sweet spot of the nib and the pen will write dry, then stop writing. The wider the nib, the worse the problem. You MUST learn to write so that the nib stays level on the paper.

 

There is a continum of nib profiles from stub to CI/Cursive Italic to Italic.

The stub being most rounded and easy to write with, but having the least line variation (because the nib is rounded off).

The italic having sharp edges and corners, the most difficult to write with, because the sharp corners dig and scratch into the paper.

In between "someplace" is the CI nib.

 

How rounded a nib has to be to be a CI differs based on who you ask.

Similarly how sharp an italic nib need to be, to be an italic nib, also differs based on who you ask.

 

How a pen manufacturer or any person put a particular pen on that scale differs. Example

- I have seen some stubs that were so rounded off that they wrote like a B nib, with almost no line variation.

- Pilot 78G B nib. This is really a stub, as the nib does not have a ball tip but an edge tip.

- Lamy italic nib. To me this is a CI nib, as the edges and corners are NOT sharp but rounded off. I can easily write cursive with my 1.1 nib.

 

re obliques

There are left foot (look down at your left foot) and right foot (look down at your right foot) obliques.

I am right handed, so here is how the nibs would look to me:

- LEFT foot oblique; narrow vertical stroke, wide horizontal stroke.

- RIGHT foot oblique; wide vertical stroke, narrow horizontal stroke.

I could not get used to the ink line from a left foot oblique, but I have a friend who loves her left foot oblique. It is all personal preference.

But an oblique does not mean it will give line variation. I had a left foot OB nib, and it had a ball tip, and wrote like a B nib, with no line variation at all.

To get line variation, the contact surface of the oblique nib has to be wider than it is tall.

 

If you have a Lamy Safari, I suggest you get a 1.1 italic nib for it, and see how you like it.

 

gud luk

[jhawkes]

Yeah

&)*)*)%$#@$ blasted keyboard, hit the wrong key and lost my post.

 

Problem: If you rotate/roll your pen as you write, you will roll off the sweet spot of the nib and the pen will write dry, then stop writing. The wider the nib, the worse the problem. You MUST learn to write so that the nib stays level on the paper.

 

There is a continum of nib profiles from stub to CI/Cursive Italic to Italic.

The stub being most rounded and easy to write with, but having the least line variation (because the nib is rounded off).

The italic having sharp edges and corners, the most difficult to write with, because the sharp corners dig and scratch into the paper.

In between "someplace" is the CI nib.

 

How rounded a nib has to be to be a CI differs based on who you ask.

Similarly how sharp an italic nib need to be, to be an italic nib, also differs based on who you ask.

 

How a pen manufacturer or any person put a particular pen on that scale differs. Example

- I have seen some stubs that were so rounded off that they wrote like a B nib, with almost no line variation.

- Pilot 78G B nib. This is really a stub, as the nib does not have a ball tip but an edge tip.

- Lamy italic nib. To me this is a CI nib, as the edges and corners are NOT sharp but rounded off. I can easily write cursive with my 1.1 nib.

 

re obliques

There are left foot (look down at your left foot) and right foot (look down at your right foot) obliques.

I am right handed, so here is how the nibs would look to me:

- LEFT foot oblique; narrow vertical stroke, wide horizontal stroke.

- RIGHT foot oblique; wide vertical stroke, narrow horizontal stroke.

I could not get used to the ink line from a left foot oblique, but I have a friend who loves her left foot oblique. It is all personal preference.

But an oblique does not mean it will give line variation. I had a left foot OB nib, and it had a ball tip, and wrote like a B nib, with no line variation at all.

To get line variation, the contact surface of the oblique nib has to be wider than it is tall.

 

If you have a Lamy Safari, I suggest you get a 1.1 italic nib for it, and see how you like it.

 

gud luk

 

 

I have used stubs as well as ci nibs. I like them, and my original question was if I would get more line variation between the cross and downstroke if I got an oblique stub because I do write with the nib canted.

[sidpost]

I can recommend Jesse of Pen Tuner as another person to consider grinding a pen. You actually may be able to get him to grind a Jinhao 159 for you first so you can gltest the grind. He used to offer the cheap pens with his CI grind so you could test before committing. I think they were $15 or so.

 

Thanks! I can see one of those in future.

[sidpost]

I had Linda Kennedy of Indy-Pen Dance make me a cusive italic out of a medium MB 146 last year. She watched me write with the pen before she did any work on the nib. She noted I rotate my pen, so she strongly recommended that I get an oblique with the cursive italic grind. I decide on just the cursive italic (.56mm wide) which is now my favorite pen.

 

In addition to pictures, will it help Dan Smith if you take a short Smartphone video of you writing?

 

Good luck and show us some writing examples of your nib after Dan's work!

 

Here's before and after Linda's work:

 

MBNIBBeforeandAfterWEB.jpg

 

That's an impressive before and after picture. Thank you for sharing as it gives me a lot to consider for future nib choices.