Celluloid - How To Identify

[Mon34480]

Did you have anything new, or did you just want to show that you you know what it is about? In the matter of "warm" plastic pens, see my response aboove.

You asked for a scientific explanation and hence I gave you one, my apologies that I didn't read every single reply to this thread to realize someone had already replied back to you

 

There is difference in thermal conductivity in the materials a simple google search and you can see that acrylic is ~0.2, celluloid is ~0.12-0.21. Obviously there are going to be differences in the manufacture of materials which will effect the numbers for example I can't detect any real noticeable difference in regards to warmth for my Delta but I can feel the difference in my Platinum. There is no definitive test for celluloid without shaving off part of the pen or damaging the material hence we go off such generalizations so obviously won't hold true for every single celluloid pen...

Edited November 1, 2016 by Alteyz

[tinta]

A tempest in a teapot, I'd say.

[FriendAmos]

You asked for a scientific explanation and hence I gave you one, my apologies that I didn't read every single reply to this thread to realize someone had already replied back to you

 

There is difference in thermal conductivity in the materials a simple google search and you can see that acrylic is ~0.2, celluloid is ~0.12-0.21. Obviously there are going to be differences in the manufacture of materials which will effect the numbers for example I can't detect any real noticeable difference in regards to warmth for my Delta but I can feel the difference in my Platinum. There is no definitive test for celluloid without shaving off part of the pen or damaging the material hence we go off such generalizations so obviously won't hold true for every single celluloid pen...

 

I an aware or the range of thermal conductivity for celluloid. You will note that I specifically referred to celluloid pens. That type of celluloid.

 

There was an FPN thread on the same subject, where someone claimed that it addition to feeling warm his celluloid felt more alive. Is your Platinum alive?

Edited November 1, 2016 by FriendAmos

[FriendAmos]

A tempest in a teapot, I'd say.

 

A warm teapot, one hopes.

[Vintagepens]

So far I haven't been able to find Brian's writeup of his testing, but rest assured he is very thorough and methodical and had no axe to grind. As I recall, he posted it online but may not have linked it to his main business website, making it a bit tough to find without having the URL.

 

A previous FPN discussion of this topic is here, by the way.

[tinta]

 

A warm teapot, one hopes.

With a cozy to be sure.

[ItwasLuck]

I wonder if prolonged exposure to the cold is harmful to celluloid the way it is to plastic. I ask because no matter how cold my room is, my Visconti is always warm to the touch, just feels so nice! Unfortunately I can't smell the camphor too well because KWZ has a very strong smell to it, acidic in nature as well, seems well behaved though.

I want to try my Iroshizuku Take-Sumi on this pen but flushing double reservoir power fillers are a real pain!

I'll just stick to Take-Sumi on my 823 for the time being I guess.

[FriendAmos]

I wonder if prolonged exposure to the cold is harmful to celluloid the way it is to plastic. I ask because no matter how cold my room is, my Visconti is always warm to the touch, just feels so nice!

 

Celluloid is a plastic. I doubt that the temperatures in any kind of "cold" room will damage any kind of plastic. As for feeling "warm" in your "cold" room, you will find that to be true of many other items in the room, but they will not necessarily be any warmer ... the thermal conductivity bit ... ability to conduct heat from your hand.

[ItwasLuck]

 

Celluloid is a plastic. I doubt that the temperatures in any kind of "cold" room will damage any kind of plastic. As for feeling "warm" in your "cold" room, you will find that to be true of many other items in the room, but they will not necessarily be any warmer ... the thermal conductivity bit ... ability to conduct heat from your hand.

Sorry if my post was a bit confusing but I actually meant cold as in, if i took my Visconti Kakadu out in the snow in a mountainous area like in my Vacation house in the Poconos, 5-22F, would it ruin the integrity of the pen?

[FriendAmos]

Sorry if my post was a bit confusing but I actually meant cold as in, if i took my Visconti Kakadu out in the snow in a mountainous area like in my Vacation house in the Poconos, 5-22F, would it ruin the integrity of the pen?

 

I didn't know that those sorts of temperatures can ruin plastic, as you have implied earlier. I see all sorts of plastics out and around in all sorts of very cold weather ... What sorts of plastics did you have in mind?

 

If it were my house at those temperatures, I'd be more concerned with warming myself first. I'd also dress warmly if I went out, and, if worried about my nice pen, I would put it in one of my inner pockets.

[ItwasLuck]

 

I didn't know that those sorts of temperatures can ruin plastic, as you have implied earlier. I see all sorts of plastics out and around in all sorts of very cold weather ... What sorts of plastics did you have in mind?

 

If it were my house at those temperatures, I'd be more concerned with warming myself first. I'd also dress warmly if I went out, and, if worried about my nice pen, I would put it in one of my inner pockets.

 

I am mainly concerned about celluloid, not plastics. But if I had to refer to a plastic, it would definitely be the ones used in the feeds of most modern FP pens. But now that I'm thinking about the pen rather than the material, I wonder how cold would the temperature have to be for the resin of a pen to break. I'm referring to PMMA to be more specific, there are a broad number of different plastics, so being specific would help. =) Like extreme limits where the pen's barrel will literally crack on you because of expansion of the ink in the barrel of the pen. I believe this would happen to most PMMA resins but would it happen to celluloid? Maybe not!

[FriendAmos]

 

I am mainly concerned about celluloid, not plastics. But if I had to refer to a plastic, it would definitely be the ones used in the feeds of most modern FP pens. But now that I'm thinking about the pen rather than the material, I wonder how cold would the temperature have to be for the resin of a pen to break. I'm referring to PMMA to be more specific, there are a broad number of different plastics, so being specific would help. =) Like extreme limits where the pen's barrel will literally crack on you because of expansion of the ink in the barrel of the pen. I believe this would happen to most PMMA resins but would it happen to celluloid? Maybe not!

 

As I have pointed out, celluloid is a plastic; so it is puzzling to read that "I am mainly concerned about celluloid, not plastics.". Similarly, it is puzzling to read a query about the effect of low temperatures, and effect that one imagines depends on material and at the same time read that "I'm thinking about the pen rather than the material" ... shortly followed by query on resin (a material) ... and then back again to celluloid (a material).

 

"Expansion of ink" suggests freezing. An odd environment for any kind of fountain pen.

 

Anyways, perhaps this might help: go to the link below and read the section on "plastics" (which includes celluloid)

 

http://collections.dartmouth.edu/arctica-beta/html/EA02b-02.html

[ItwasLuck]

 

As I have pointed out, celluloid is a plastic; so it is puzzling to read that "I am mainly concerned about celluloid, not plastics.". Similarly, it is puzzling to read a query about the effect of low temperatures, and effect that one imagines depends on material and at the same time read that "I'm thinking about the pen rather than the material" ... shortly followed by query on resin (a material) ... and then back again to celluloid (a material).

 

"Expansion of ink" suggests freezing. An odd environment for any kind of fountain pen.

 

Anyways, perhaps this might help: go to the link below and read the section on "plastics" (which includes celluloid)

 

http://collections.dartmouth.edu/arctica-beta/html/EA02b-02.html

Wow didn't know I had to be so specific when it comes to all kinds of plastics. I wonder why you blatantly ignored the section where I spoke about PMMA...

Expansion of ink, odd environment for a fp, yes but if you read what I said you'd under I was "curious". Didn't know it was a crime to openly discuss something so silly...

Listen no need to link me anything, I honestly don't see what makes you think I been attacking you personally. But the way your speaking is frankly quite rude.

But whatever the case, I wonder if celluloid acts similarly to PMMA when subjected to extreme cold conditions, my guess is that it would handle a little better than PMMA, if anyone would like to chime in please do. 😊 😊

 

EDIT : Thanks for the link, I actually found what I was looking for (not exactly but something that helped explain everything well) there.

If lucite is used for windshields and as written in the same chart, celluloid for fountain pens, I'd imagine using a Visconti Australis would do reasonably OK in extremely cold weather comparatively to my Kakadu. Both would still probably be rendered unusable afterwards but definitely got the answer I was looking for!

Edited November 15, 2016 by ItwasLuck

[FriendAmos]

Wow didn't know I had to be so specific when it comes to all kinds of plastics. I wonder why you blatantly ignored the section where I spoke about PMMA...

Expansion of ink, odd environment for a fp, yes but if you read what I said you'd under I was "curious". Didn't know it was a crime to openly discuss something so silly...

Listen no need to link me anything, I honestly don't see what makes you think I been attacking you personally. But the way your speaking is frankly quite rude.

But whatever the case, I wonder if celluloid acts similarly to PMMA when subjected to extreme cold conditions, my guess is that it would handle a little better than PMMA, if anyone would like to chime in please do.

 

I was actually trying to be helpful, in response to this query:

 

"I wonder if prolonged exposure to the cold is harmful to celluloid the way it is to plastic. I ask because no matter how cold my room is, my Visconti is always warm to the touch, just feels so nice!" and so on (your cabin etc.)

 

The material at the link I have provided is very helpful on the matter of extreme cold on various material.

[ItwasLuck]

 

I was actually trying to be helpful, in response to this query:

 

"I wonder if prolonged exposure to the cold is harmful to celluloid the way it is to plastic. I ask because no matter how cold my room is, my Visconti is always warm to the touch, just feels so nice!" and so on (your cabin etc.)

 

The material at the link I have provided is very helpful on the matter of extreme cold on various material.

Please read my edited response again, thanks. And yes I found the link quite helpful, thanks again.

[raging.dragon]

 

I know what thermal conductivity is, and Vintage pens above has also chimed in with that. Did you have anything new, or did you just want to show that you you know what it is about? In the matter of "warm" plastic pens, see my response aboove.

 

To understand this effect, you need to consider heat transfer and the difference in thermal conductivity (the rate of heat transfer) between your skin and the material being touched.

 

A pen is usually at room temperature, and room temperature is usually cooler than body temperature. Heat moves from hot to cold. Therefore, when you handle a pen, it will warm up by pulling heat from your body.

 

A material with higher thermal conductivity will pull heat from your body faster, if it pulls heat away from your skin faster than that heat can be replenished from your blood and other tissues, it will cool your skin and thus feel cool until it warms up. This is why metal (high thermal conductivity) feels cold and wood doesn't (low thermal conductivity).

 

Celluloid has a lower thermal conductivity than other plastics commonly used for making pens. Therefore, celluloid would feel warmer or, if you prefer, less cool.

 

Heat capacity would also play a role. Metal has a high thermal capacity, meaning it will take alot of heat to warm it up; therefore, it will feel cool for longer than materials with a lower heat capacity. I'm not certain how heat capacity compares between celluloid and other plastics.

Edited November 21, 2016 by raging.dragon

[FriendAmos]

 

 

To understand this effect, you need to consider heat transfer and the difference in thermal conductivity (the rate of heat transfer) between your skin and the material being touched.

A pen is usually at room temperature, and room temperature is usually cooler than body temperature. Heat moves from hot to cold. Therefore, when you handle a pen, it will warm up by pulling heat from your body.

A material with higher thermal conductivity will pull heat from your body faster, if it pulls heat away from your skin faster than that heat can be replenished from your blood and other tissues, it will cool your skin and thus feel cool until it warms up. This is why metal (high thermal conductivity) feels cold and wood doesn't (low thermal conductivity).

 

Celluloid has a lower thermal conductivity than other plastics commonly used for making pens. Therefore, celluloid would feel warmer or, if you prefer, less cool.

 

Heat capacity would also play a role. Metal has a high thermal capacity, meaning it will take alot of heat to warm it up; therefore, it will feel cool for longer than materials with a lower heat capacity. I'm not certain how heat capacity compares between celluloid and other plastics.

 

 

One more time, and please pay careful attention: I know all about thermal conductivity (as I have a pretty good knowledge of physics). It would help if you actually read what has already been written, rather than engage in a mad rush to display a little knowledge.

 

You write that: "Celluloid has a lower thermal conductivity than other plastics commonly used for making pens. Therefore, celluloid would feel warmer or, if you prefer, less cool."

 

Considering that we are talking about pend, where did you get that bizarre idea? First, you need to consider the type of celluloid that is used to make pens, not just any old celluloid. Second, even if you make the assumption that celluloid at the low end of the conductivity range for celluloid is used to make pens, are you sure that the difference over pen-plastics is large enough to be detected by hand? (Start with the first question.)

Edited November 21, 2016 by FriendAmos

[ItwasLuck]

 

To understand this effect, you need to consider heat transfer and the difference in thermal conductivity (the rate of heat transfer) between your skin and the material being touched.

 

A pen is usually at room temperature, and room temperature is usually cooler than body temperature. Heat moves from hot to cold. Therefore, when you handle a pen, it will warm up by pulling heat from your body.

 

A material with higher thermal conductivity will pull heat from your body faster, if it pulls heat away from your skin faster than that heat can be replenished from your blood and other tissues, it will cool your skin and thus feel cool until it warms up. This is why metal (high thermal conductivity) feels cold and wood doesn't (low thermal conductivity).

 

Celluloid has a lower thermal conductivity than other plastics commonly used for making pens. Therefore, celluloid would feel warmer or, if you prefer, less cool.

 

Heat capacity would also play a role. Metal has a high thermal capacity, meaning it will take alot of heat to warm it up; therefore, it will feel cool for longer than materials with a lower heat capacity. I'm not certain how heat capacity compares between celluloid and other plastics.

 

 

 

 

 

One more time, and please pay careful attention: I know all about thermal conductivity (as I have a pretty good knowledge of physics). It would help if you actually read what has already been written, rather than engage in a mad rush to display a little knowledge.

 

You write that: "Celluloid has a lower thermal conductivity than other plastics commonly used for making pens. Therefore, celluloid would feel warmer or, if you prefer, less cool."

 

Considering that we are talking about pend, where did you get that bizarre idea? First, you need to consider the type of celluloid that is used to make pens, not just any old celluloid. Second, even if you make the assumption that celluloid at the low end of the conductivity range for celluloid is used to make pens, are you sure that the difference over pen-plastics is large enough to be detected by hand? (Start with the first question.)

 

Not to just add to FriendAmos post, but you also mention heat capacity which i will discuss later but, in this scenario regarding pens as FriendAmos pointed out, there is also quite a bit of complexity when you speak about celluloids so broadly, as previously mentioned in this thread, Celluloid is plastic but different celluloids have different thermal conductivity and it is the thermal conductivity that is the reason why celluloid pens in general feel warmer to the touch compared to normal PMMA/"precious resin" pens. However, there are many types of celluloids, and to explain it plainly, just think about how some of your celluloid pens have a very strong camphor odour to it whereas your other celluloid pens many have a subtle odour. This shows the different, for a lack of a better term, celluloid content of a pen. I believe the heavier the camphor odour, the more "celluloid material" is used to make the pen and therefore will have a better thermal conductivity (I think, not sure because the strengh of the odour might just simply depend on different manufacturing processes, so I don't want to add any confusion to the discussion, but would love to get some insight on this!).

 

Anyways, what I wanted to say is that the heat capacity really is not something that will effect our feel of the actual body of the pen, it will only have a very small effect on the nib of a pen. It might also have a slight effect on ink flow when writing with a steel vs gold nib in a chilly morning for example, but it will be so miniscule as to be as to be blatantly irrelevant but I thank you for adding this to the discussion, it's definite something important to consider and would love to hear what FriendAmos can tell us about that. =)

 

On a side note, I'm quite glad I bumped into this thread, learned quite a bit of interesting stuff about thermal conductivity and celluloids in general!

 

 

 

There is also quite a bit of complexity when you speak about celluloids so broadly, as previously mentioned in this thread, Celluloid is plastic but different celluloids have different thermal conductivity and it is the thermal conductivity that is the reason why celluloid pens in general feel warmer to the touch compared to normal PMMA/"precious resin". However, there are many types of celluloids, and to explain it plainly, just think about how some of your celluloid pens have a very strong camphor odour to it whereas your other celluloid pens many have a subtle odour.

Edited November 21, 2016 by ItwasLuck

[AD43]

These are not Omas but Montegrappa. One pen is resin, the others celluloid.

 

http://www.fototime.com/BDCD60D9C0C135F/large.jpg

Is the middle resin?

[Vintagepens]

I'm not sure any of the pens in the photo are actually celluloid. Some pen makers and many pen blank suppliers have taken to calling cellulose acetate "celluloid", even though they are two quite different materials (albeit both based upon cellulose).

 

Regarding some of the other posts above, I wonder if this same confusion might be at work. Real celluloid has a high camphor content. The lack of camphor smell is likely an indication that the "celluloid" is in fact cellulose acetate -- not celluloid at all.