Pilot Metropolitan- Rough Start And Skipping

[hariharan]

I recently bought a white pilot metropolitan and was very satisfied with the purchase and its writing performance.

 

I went and bought one more in blue. Both are medium nib. But the blue pilot is very frustrating and wrote very very dry. I filled a scarlet rose bril ink and it wrote so watery. Then i cleaned in fresh water, soaked in soap water and cleaned thoroughly. Still it was dry. I opened the tines with my thumb and the flow has improved a lot and writes like european M.

 

However, the starting is rough and it skips unexpectedly. Left overnight, it takes lot of cajoling to start the pen. Its bit frustrating. I bought a magnifying lens and observed the tines and tines were aliged well, and no baby bottom observed (the good flow also indicates no baby bottom).

 

But i noticed that one of the tine diameter is smaller than the other. An exaggerated schematic of the top view of the tines is shown below. Could this be the problem for the poor starting and skipping ? If so, can grinding solve this ?

 

exaggerated schematic of top view of tines

 

both the pens together.. the white is a beautiful writer

 

 

[knarflj]

I would try a different ink before sending it to be reground. My medium Metropolitan has similar problems with one particular ink in my collection (unfortunately the ink that's the best colour match with the pen!), but does fine with other inks.

 

You could also try a different converter. Mine seems to write a little better (even with the unfriendly ink) with a Con-50 converter than it does with the squeeze converter included with the pen.

 

Jenny

[hariharan]

Thanks for the suggestion.

 

I searched that many have reported this and i expected that pilot should have solved this.

 

con-50 costs more than the pen here and therefore i used a pilot catridge instead of con-50. Now the skipping while writing has reduced drastically, but the flow problem of initial start, when left attended for hours exists.

 

Do you think deepening the feed channel with a needle or foil will help?

[ac12]

I have some inks that just do not behave in some pens, and that same ink works just fine in other pens. And the pens that the ink does not working well in, will work just fine with other inks.

When I say do not behave, I mean to the point of frustration and my banning that pen/ink combo,

 

These are my current problematic inks:

- Diamine, Sherwood Green

- Noodler's, Liberty's Elysium

- Organic Studio, Nitrogen

 

Good flow does not indicate no baby's bottom. It just means that the ink, once flowing, flows well. It can still hard start.

You need about 10x magnification to see the tip clear enough to determine if you have baby's bottom.

Also you need to look at the nib from the angle of paper contact, not head on or top down.

 

Did you flush out ALL the water from the pen? Water in the feed could make the ink look dry (light in color), by diluting the ink.

 

About your tip picture, yes that happens when the saw does not hit the center of the tipping when it cuts the slit in the nib. Sometimes that is due to the tipping itself being off-centered on the nib.

[hariharan]

Thanks a lot for the clarification..

 

I shall go for higher magnification and check whether there's baby's bottom or for that matter even tine alignment. I always use the normal direction. This is a good input on viewing perpendicular to the angle of writing.

 

I agree with you on the ink choice, but with pilot catridge, i guess i should not be worried about the ink compatibility. I am now using pilot catridges.

 

 

I have some inks that just do not behave in some pens, and that same ink works just fine in other pens. And the pens that the ink does not working well in, will work just fine with other inks.

When I say do not behave, I mean to the point of frustration and my banning that pen/ink combo,

 

These are my current problematic inks:

- Diamine, Sherwood Green

- Noodler's, Liberty's Elysium

- Organic Studio, Nitrogen

 

Good flow does not indicate no baby's bottom. It just means that the ink, once flowing, flows well. It can still hard start.

You need about 10x magnification to see the tip clear enough to determine if you have baby's bottom.

Also you need to look at the nib from the angle of paper contact, not head on or top down.

 

Did you flush out ALL the water from the pen? Water in the feed could make the ink look dry (light in color), by diluting the ink.

 

About your tip picture, yes that happens when the saw does not hit the center of the tipping when it cuts the slit in the nib. Sometimes that is due to the tipping itself being off-centered on the nib.

[hariharan]

Yes, i flushed the water out of feed dry. Initially that was my doubt. I thought there is water in my convertor. So i cleaned again and ensured its dry before filling.

 

Regarding your comment on asymmetrical tip due to cutting or offset tipping, do you think that will affect the flow and cause skipping ?

 

 

I have some inks that just do not behave in some pens, and that same ink works just fine in other pens. And the pens that the ink does not working well in, will work just fine with other inks.

When I say do not behave, I mean to the point of frustration and my banning that pen/ink combo,

 

These are my current problematic inks:

- Diamine, Sherwood Green

- Noodler's, Liberty's Elysium

- Organic Studio, Nitrogen

 

Good flow does not indicate no baby's bottom. It just means that the ink, once flowing, flows well. It can still hard start.

You need about 10x magnification to see the tip clear enough to determine if you have baby's bottom.

Also you need to look at the nib from the angle of paper contact, not head on or top down.

 

Did you flush out ALL the water from the pen? Water in the feed could make the ink look dry (light in color), by diluting the ink.

 

About your tip picture, yes that happens when the saw does not hit the center of the tipping when it cuts the slit in the nib. Sometimes that is due to the tipping itself being off-centered on the nib.

[Flippy]

Did you clean it out and wipe it with a tissue? Often the tissue fibers will get stuck in the feed, so I always use a cloth.

 

Also, some inks work better with some pens that other inks do and so on.

 

If i were you, I would try flushing it out one more time, and if it fails, try another different ink.

[hariharan]

yes, you are right.. There were tissue fibers in the feed channel and nib tip the first time of flushing and drying with tissue paper, which i caught in a 3x lens.

So next time i flushed, i dried it plain overnight.

 

When i fit a pilot catridge, the flow issue during writing was solved greatly. But as i had mentioned, if left unused overnight, starting is a big issue.

 

 

Did you clean it out and wipe it with a tissue? Often the tissue fibers will get stuck in the feed, so I always use a cloth.

 

Also, some inks work better with some pens that other inks do and so on.

 

If i were you, I would try flushing it out one more time, and if it fails, try another different ink.

[LizEF]

Regarding your comment on asymmetrical tip due to cutting or offset tipping, do you think that will affect the flow and cause skipping ?

 

Generally, uneven tine widths should not cause any problem. But if it's extreme enough, it seems like one really skinny tine might "drag" when it's the trailing tine.

 

Skipping would be more likely to happen if the tipping material is sufficiently uneven that when resting on the larger bit of tipping, the other won't touch the paper - then it would be like writing with the side of the nib (only one tine) - without both touching the paper, nothing's coming out. In this case, there would be a rotation at which both sides of the tipping material touch the paper, and it writes perfectly, and any rotation which doesn't let both tines touch the paper would cause skipping. (One of my Ecos has this problem, though not so extreme as to make me send it back - but I can see the difference in tipping sizes under a microscope.)

 

Hard starts seems more likely to be caused by the ink (IMO, that the ink is Pilot does not guarantee this particular pen will like it), or by the pen not sealing so that ink dries out (or both). The only things I think you could do about that are to be sure cartridge, nib, and feed are seated properly, the barrel / section are screwed together fully, and that the cap is on tightly.

 

Of course, there could be other things outside my experience, but those are what I can offer.

[hariharan]

wow

 

thanks for your detailed reply and thats lot of experience.

 

i would like my pen to be within the small window of minor difference in tine sizes you had mentioned that wont affect the pen .

 

Also, pilot cartridge not guarantying good flow is little disappointing

 

I was able to remove the feed and nib very easily, am now wondering whether this loose fit might have cause air trap affecting flow (probably positive tolerance in section drilling might have affected causing loose fit).

 

Generally, uneven tine widths should not cause any problem. But if it's extreme enough, it seems like one really skinny tine might "drag" when it's the trailing tine.

 

Skipping would be more likely to happen if the tipping material is sufficiently uneven that when resting on the larger bit of tipping, the other won't touch the paper - then it would be like writing with the side of the nib (only one tine) - without both touching the paper, nothing's coming out. In this case, there would be a rotation at which both sides of the tipping material touch the paper, and it writes perfectly, and any rotation which doesn't let both tines touch the paper would cause skipping. (One of my Ecos has this problem, though not so extreme as to make me send it back - but I can see the difference in tipping sizes under a microscope.)

 

Hard starts seems more likely to be caused by the ink (IMO, that the ink is Pilot does not guarantee this particular pen will like it), or by the pen not sealing so that ink dries out (or both). The only things I think you could do about that are to be sure cartridge, nib, and feed are seated properly, the barrel / section are screwed together fully, and that the cap is on tightly.

 

Of course, there could be other things outside my experience, but those are what I can offer.

[hariharan]

Based on the above discussions, the poor start and skipping could be any or all of the following problems

1. Residue or water in feed and convertor- both manufacturing residue or paper fibers
2. Incompatible ink- even a pilot ink can cause issues
3. Tine misalignment
4. Non-uniform tip leading to loss of contact
5. Air trap in convertor or feed nib interface- may be due to loose fit of convertor or feed

 

I cleaned the pen thoroughly and did not let tissue fibers get in while drying. So I hope the issue (1) is taken care. Incompatible ink is a major issue. As I had mentioned before, I had started using Bril Scarlet rose which was so dilute and the flush after that had lot of dried ink in the feed. Perhaps the ink is on the dry side and the feed is too narrow. Maybe the viscosity is too less for the Poiseuille flow to occur (note: the flow rate is inversely proportional to viscosity in Poiseuille equation- refer Wiki). Or if we take the capillary action as the governing mechanism, may be the surfactants in the ink might have reduced the surface tension. Again, the capillary action is proportional to the surface tension. I don’t have numbers for any inks , so am throwing random possibilities. Nevertheless, I switched to pilot cartridge ink. Though one of the replies mentioned that pilot ink is not a guarantee for flow issues, since I have already used the pilot cartridge with satisfaction in my other pilot metropolitan pen, I thought this could solve the incompatible ink issue. But the skipping persisted, so its not the issue (2). I used a 3x lens and a 4x zoom in my camera and couldn’t find tine misalignment in either along the pen axis or normal to the writing angle. So its not issue (3). I have observed non-uniform tine tip, but the height was not different and only the diameter of the split tip was different. So I guess I will skip the issue (4) as there is contact of both the tip halves in the paper.So that leaves the (5th) issue of airtrap open. To solve the airtrap, I did two things in parallel. I first filled the cartridge to the brim hoping to clear any airgap in the convertor side. I do not know how to fix the airtrap in feed side. So I kept the pen upside down overnight, hoping that the gravity of ink column on the top will force the air column out and soak the feed. The next day morning it was perfect and the pen started with no trouble. I also did not feel any skipping when writing a paragraph. Second night I kept the pen in slanting position and not upside down. Since I haven’t written much the ink is almost full. Second day also I did not face any issue. Am in the third day now. I am not sure which action solved the problem, whether the filling of cartridge or the overnight inverted pen. In a couple of days, the cartridge will reduce its ink level and I guess I will know whether it brings back the problem. If it doesn’t, then the original issue was on the airgap at the feed side. I assume the higher tolerance in manufacturing could have caused loose fit.

To conclude, as of now the issue is fixed and the cause was air gap somewhere in the flow channel and time will answer the cause and the permanence of the solution.

Edited October 21, 2016 by hariharan

[LizEF]

Glad your pen is behaving now. I keep mine stored on their sides so I don't have to worry about the ink draining out of the feed (if nib up) or into the cap (if nib down) and I've noticed that when filling in any way other than drawing ink in through the nib/feed, some pens do want several hours to fully saturate the feed (others need less than an hour). You just have to learn each pen and what it likes - glad you've found what yours likes.

[DSiemens]

This was incredibly helpful. I was having the same issue with my Metropolitan. Was writing fine for over a month then I had to change the cartridge. Cleaned it put a new cartridge in and I had all sorts of flow issues. After reading about the air issues hear I thought that's got to be it. So having worked on the accounting end of the medical field I thought lets try a syringe approach. I took it with the nib side up and flicked the pen a few times. Then I squeezed the cartridge. Had some ink pour out which made a bit of a mess but it got the air out. It's writing great again.

[LionRoar]

Pilot Metropolitans are so cheap. By another one at Amazon for $12 if it’s not working for you.

 

As far as pens clogging:

 

1. More likely to happen with specialty ink, regular link made by brands like Waterman, Pelikan, or even Pilot, are less likely to clog. Stick to inks that are water soluble. Even after Waterman Florida Blue dries in the pen, just sucking in some water and then expelling it a few times cleans it out.

 

2. It’s better to use a converter, easier to clean the pen, even the process of expelling the remaining ink and then drawing in new ink has a cleaning effect. Cartridges are for noobs.

 

Other than that... I'm sure there's plenty of good advice here about how to clean pens.

Edited October 23, 2018 by LionRoar

[Strudel]

I know you've solved the issue, but I want to echo something many already said in this thread: always check the ink before adjusting the pen. I've been in the hobby for a few years now and I still fall to this trap. Just a couple weeks ago I bought a sample of Robert Oster's Sydney Lavender. I inked it up in a brand new pen and oh boy, the pen wrote terribly. It was dry, the ink wasn't flowing, just everything about the pen felt terrible.

 

I almost started adjusting the nib of the pen when I decided to try the ink in a pen that I knew worked. What do you know? The good pen performed the same way. It wrote really dry and the pen had a lot of feedback on the paper because the nib wasn't lubricated with ink. Turns out Robert Oster's Sydney Lavender is not good for a fine nibbed pen. The ink actually performed so poorly that I almost started adjusting the nib. Always, always, always try a different ink.

 

And as a general rule of thumb, test a new pen with it's own ink brand, if possible. A Pilot pen should always perform well with a Pilot Iroshizuku ink. That's what they're tested with. Same goes for Lamy, Platinum, Faber-Castell, Pelikan, Sailor, you get the idea.

[mhguda]

Hariharan - thank you for the detailed report and systematic attack of the problem. I really liked how you eliminated all the possibilities one by one and came to a pretty solid conclusion. I sense a physicist or engineer at work - nice!

One way that sometimes helps me fix the air trapped in the feed channel (I think) is heat-setting the nib and feed, using the hot water method. I submerge nib&feed for maybe 20 seconds, squeeze together, and if necessary, repeat. It costs a little ink, but it does seem to fix a lot of skipping and hard starting so I think it's worth while. I've even risked it with those plastic feeds although I then use water that's not quite so piping hot...