Vintage Or New?

[visvamitra]

What he said - vintage wins every time. On the other hand Stresseman is a handsome pen I wouldn't mind to have.

[fplover01]

I have 6 modern M800s and 3 W.Germany ones, and i love to write with any of them. I value the fact that pelikan used to offer more nib choice (BB and O nibs) and that older nibs have less tipping material and give a more accurate feeling. However modern M800 pens are by no means useless, and with the right ink (i use R&K Salix), they give a wonderful writing experience.

 

I do not have a need for a flex pen in my daily writing and for some writers a flex nib is a secondary concern... I have a green striped modern M800 which is my daily writer... In general a modern Pelikan is a problem free, quality writing pen that will get the job done. Vintage has more nib options but someone should be able to make use of them, and a pen might induce lots of hidden costs to come in a writing condition in the long term.

 

Count me as a Barbarian, but I would get any modern M800 pen, if the money was there.

 

I am like Calabria annoyed by the price increases, however Pelikan doesnt operate in a vacuum... They need to make profit and producing in high wage Germany is very costly... And costs are going up every day. It is important to me that Pelikan pens are still made in Germany, however the price increases have put some of them out of my reach.

 

 

In I have semi-flex '50's 140's & 400s, I was told by a passed member who was once one of the better Pelikan posters, that I was spoiled and buying a '82-90 W.Germany 400, I'd not notice much better than my '90-96 (in it was Tortoise, green continued until '97.) It was better but only a tad....and I was already use to semi-flex.

 

But as a first 400 that would be something ....and why not in tortoise. Tortoise don't run any more than green striped on German Ebay. A W. Germany green stripped 400 went for 130 Euro, some 10 more than I bid....(Is ok instead I got a 500) and a no gold ring 400 can be had for 100-130 Euro, if you hunt.

 

Calabria.....you have a W. Germany 800?

 

That is the only way to know if the nib is that very nice springy 'true' regular flex. The 400's W.German nib was also a tad better than the nice Germany @'90/91-to '97. After that with the ring came in the semi-nail.

It could well be that the 800 had a slightly lesser 'true' reflex nib up to when the 400 got ruined in '98....but no one dates when the nail came in as standard for the 800.

 

I would buy a W. Germany 800, even if I find it clunky....for the nib. I had the pleasure of a few day's use, when I trans-mailed it to a friend in Spain, in there are idiots in Germany who refuse to mail outside of Germany.

It would give me nightmares to even think of buying a modern 800....I have enough nails and a nail's a nail....good to stub or make into a CI, only. IMO of course.

Edited September 25, 2016 by fplover01

[mirosc]

What he said - vintage wins every time.

 

I tend to disagree. There are situations when I prefer modern pens to vintage pens.

 

For example: modern feeds have better buffer capability (if my pen gets tossed around in the bag or when travelling on a plane), modern Pelikans have screwable nib units, some of my vintage Pelikans are just friction fit nibs and feeds (for cleaning purposes), if he buys a used vintage pens he needs to make sure that the seals are still intact or should be able to repair them by himself (not a problem with a new pen), if he tends to lend out his pens (it better be a stiff modern one than a vintage one),...

 

In general I tend to agree with you, just not with the absolute "every time"

Edited September 25, 2016 by mirosc

[FOUR X FOUR]

Go with what appeals to you the most

[white_lotus]

I see many people think vintage is the way to go. I guess a lot depends on what your criteria for a fountain pen might be: what is one's writing style, what does one use a fountain pen for: correspondence or a grocery list?, what inks does one favor. All of these are pertinent questions.

 

I'm not much of a collector, but Pelikans are one of my favorites, not only because of the relatively inexpensive piston filling system. Easy to fill, easy to clean, easy to swap nibs, classic designs. As someone mentioned, it costs a bit of money to make things in a Western country these days. A modern pen, you can send for repair under warranty when your cat knocks it off the desk and the section breaks, or the pen inexplicably falls from your hand, uncapped, onto the floor bending the nib.

 

I have eight Pelikans, only one of them vintage. I must admit I've never inked it. The modern Pelikans just work for me. I can write at my funny angle no problem. But nearly any ink them no problem.

 

So buy a pen that you want, for the inks you use, for the way you write. That's the real grail.

 

I know this is heresy and I'll be burned at the stake, but whatever.

[wastelanded]

I see many people think vintage is the way to go. I guess a lot depends on what your criteria for a fountain pen might be: what is one's writing style, what does one use a fountain pen for: correspondence or a grocery list?, what inks does one favor. All of these are pertinent questions.

 

I'm not much of a collector, but Pelikans are one of my favorites, not only because of the relatively inexpensive piston filling system. Easy to fill, easy to clean, easy to swap nibs, classic designs. As someone mentioned, it costs a bit of money to make things in a Western country these days. A modern pen, you can send for repair under warranty when your cat knocks it off the desk and the section breaks, or the pen inexplicably falls from your hand, uncapped, onto the floor bending the nib.

 

I have eight Pelikans, only one of them vintage. I must admit I've never inked it. The modern Pelikans just work for me. I can write at my funny angle no problem. But nearly any ink them no problem.

 

So buy a pen that you want, for the inks you use, for the way you write. That's the real grail.

 

I know this is heresy and I'll be burned at the stake, but whatever.

 

All excellent points. Of course, one's personal needs dictate what pen is best! We all have our own opinions and likes, and can be partisan about them. Sometimes it's hard to remember that everyone is different, has different writing styles, likes different inks. I will admit that, being a lefthanded overwriter, not all vintage nibs work for me. I've sold a few pens, Pelikans included, that just didn't work with my writing angle. Modern nibs, being round-tipped, are much more forgiving.

 

And along with vis, I wouldn't kick an M805 Stresemann out of my bed for eating crackers.

[carlos.q]

Well, I can tell you what I did with the same amount of money ($300). My first Pelikan was a vintage 100N which I absolutely adore. Since at that time I was a bit afraid of taking the 100N out of my house, I bought a Pelikan M200 which promptly became my EDC. The M200/205's steel nib is, IMO a nicer, bouncier, nib that an equivalent new M400 gold nib.

 

So with $300 you can buy and indulge in both: a nice vintage (100N, 140, 400, 400N) and a great modern pen (M200/205).

[sirgilbert357]

Buy Used!!! Period. Spend a bit more and buy from someone reputable and knowledgeable, like the folks in the sales section on this com.

For 600, you will make out like a bandit.....buy any pen new....and you are black and blue.

 

A modern 200, in it has a nice springy 'true' regular flex nib.

A 400NN, a medium long but thin pen that somehow manages to old 1.97ml or so's worth of ink.

It can be either a semi-flex or a maxi-semi-flex. ( They are not "Flex" nibs ....but 'almost'...like half way.

and a 140 which will be semi-flex.

Get a 200, a 140 in semi-flex and a 400nn maxi-semi-flex and in that order. You should work your way up the flex ladder.

 

I would stay away from modern pens (outside the 200)....the 400/600's are now semi-nail, fat and blobby for the jack hammer handed Ball Point Barbarian. The 600 is a very nice looking light and nimble pen with good girth.....and a semi-flex nib will fit it. My 605 has the semi-flex B nib from my 400n in it.

There are many beautiful 600's....all semi-nail. It's nib is a fancy two tone gold semi-nail...but you can replace that nib with a monotone semi/maxi-semi-flex and only you would know it's supposed to be two toned....in 99% of the people are Ball Point Barbarians. And you have a great pen with a great nib.

 

The early W. Germany 800's had a very nice springy true regular flex nib....the modern ones....perhaps after '97 are nails.

The 1000 costs a lot, as a semi-flex nib...but it is 18K, instead of the older semi-flex 14 K, so can bend easier and stay bent. It is also a huge Giant pen. The 800 is a Large pen not particularly nimble.

 

The 600 is a medium long pen, the 200/400 are Standard. Both should be posted for the great balance no Large pen has.

The 140 is a perfect modern short shirt pocket pen in it is medium-small but posts exactly as long as a 400....a great pen.

 

I don't know what sort of pens you have had, but a used 200 is the first....in it gets you use to a springy 'true' regular flex nib. Most pen companies have gone over to regular issue of Nail or Semi-nail instead of the once 'true' regular flex nib. Many folks coming over from nail/semi-nail think the springy 'true' regular flex to be semi-flex....It ain't.

 

Manny to most of us are heavy handed. As long as you are not Jack Hammered handed, a 140 semi-flex can handle ham fistedness. It took me some three months with a 140, before my hand lightened up enough for maxi-semi-flex.

Those you need to order from folks on this com that would know the difference between a semi-flex and a maxi-semi-flex.

The early 400, 400n, 400NN and the 140 have stubbish nibs with some flex, so your writing gets nice flair with out doing a thing.

An Oblique from that era...1950-1965 is the Only Oblique worth buying. It gives you great line variation.

Regular flex, or modern semi-nail....none, and nails less than that.

 

Semi-vintage 400's ....'80-97 (& the 200/M100/150) are 'true' regular flex and @ 1/2 a width narrower than modern. The semi&maxi vintage 1950-65 nibs are also @ 1/2 a width narrower than modern, but add stub to the touch of flex, that the after '82 nibs don't have...they have the American Bump Under>

So a 140 OB would be like a M or a fat M, and the sweet spot is wide enough you don't have to worry about pen placement as much as an OM or OF.

The 140 was my first semi-flex that I had...I'd read about semi-flex here, and at a flea market here in Germany put the nib to my thumb and suddenly knew what all the fuss was all about.

(Later I was to find out I had a semi-flex....but thought it only one of those Wet Nibs many wish.)

 

Map, compass, and flashlight.

 

With the money left over in you bought good used pens....

Writing is 1/3 nib width/flex, 1/3 paper and 1/3 ink, and in that order.

We live in the Golden Age of Ink....so if you bought used....you can buy good to better paper and great ink.

Outside of 80g Rhoda and a 70g Japanese paper, you need 90g or better laser copy paper for your ink to shade....and you need both 'two toned' shading ink....and vivid 'boring' supersaturated inks. Your normal 80g copy paper is not good for shading and only good for your laser printer.

A ream of 90g or better....good to better paper only cost two cans of Coke from a machine, or two cups of Starbucks coffee more. Both are bad for you! They cut into good paper and inks and are empty calories.....

Do Not Ever use Ink Jet paper for a fountain pen...it causes ink to feather in it absorbs it too fast.

So buy paper to write on if you are into expensive Ink Jet inks....and never ever use that in a fountain pen!!!!!!!

 

When you go to Ink Reviews, always look for Ink Reviews from Sandy1, our Ink Guru. She used normal pens, some 4-5 different decent and 'affordable' papers....and often it is unbelievable that, that is the same ink on each of the papers!

OK, I just have to point something out here:

 

While BoBo really knows his flex, it isn't for everyone and some people might care to know the modern "fat blobby nail" nibs have more tipping material and are excellent for customization. The modern nibs are just fine depending on your preferences.

 

I just bought a vintage tortoise 400 at the Dallas Pen Show and despite its age being what BoBo might find preferable (and having that tiny tipping material), it writes almost exactly like my M400 that's less than a year old (both are mediums). The feedback is slightly different, but the lines that make it to the paper are very similar. I played with some vintage flex Pelikans too and decided my writing style would have to be drastically changed to make use of such a nib...flex isn't always better, just saying.

[Lam1]

As many people have said already, it depends on what you want in a pen.

 

I have more than 20 Pelikans, with about 3 or 4 from the 90's, two vintages and the rest modern.

Although both vintage pens are lovely, and in particular my 140 (KEF) is pretty flexible, they are the ones that see the least amount of use. For what I use my pens, I need to be able to write fast and I can't do that with a flex nib. The modern nibs have just the right amount of spring to make writing with them interesting and suitable for my needs.

 

Another thing that is important for me is the size of the pen, and I consider that an integral part of the writing experience. The vintage pens, lovely as they may be, do not have the optimal size or weight for my hands: the pen that fits that bill is the M800. So, if I had $300 I would buy another M800.

 

Best of luck with your choice, and let us know what you decide.

 

Edited to add: I also like my pens in pristine condition and, in general, Vintage + Pristine = Very Expensive (unless you get very, very lucky on ebay).

Edited September 26, 2016 by Lam1

[Bo Bo Olson]

OK, I just have to point something out here:

 

While BoBo really knows his flex, it isn't for everyone and some people might care to know the modern "fat blobby nail" nibs have more tipping material and are excellent for customization...The modern nibs are just fine depending on your preferences.

((about all you can do is stub or CI it......And if you insist on Butter Smooth.....I don't . I like the step under; good and smooth. which don't slide like buttersmooth on slick paper. Everyone needs a couple buttersmooth nibs and some good and smooth...paperwise.))

 

(The 'less' tipping material on the '50-65 nibs (outside the 120 which had a slightly flattened American Bump Under) is because they are stubbed +the tad of flex....I do not think of semi-flex or even maxi-semi-flex as "FLEX" . A term mostly used in my thoughts for superflex.

There is some flex of course, to semi-flex and more for maxi. However I find with a lighter hand and by Not Trying to make the nib do Fancy, semi-flex adds only flair of a slightly wider first letter and depending on the last half of the last letter, more or less line from variation. (In fact I find no difference in how I write....hold, be it nail or superflex.) Please read my signature.

 

It took me some three months from getting my first semi-flex to lighten my Hand from Ham Fisted, so I was not always 'flexing' my 140 OB semi-flex. The pressure lessened, so I was not pressing so hard.

Then my Hand was light enough...Slightly Ham Fisted.... to go to my maxi-semi-flex 400NN. Again my Hand became lighter, and flexing was less. Unless asked. Maxi delivers that of course easier than semi-. Semi you got to work at it to make fancy letters...or add fancy descenders. Maxi is the better choice for fancy. (I have 26 or so semi & 16 or so maxi.))

 

I just bought a vintage tortoise 400 at the Dallas Pen Show and despite its age being what BoBo might find preferable (and having that tiny tipping material), it writes almost exactly like my M400 that's less than a year old (both are mediums). ((Yes.) The feedback is slightly different, but the lines that make it to the paper are very similar.

(I find vintage stubb leaves a cleaner line.)

I played with some vintage flex Pelikans too and decided my writing style would have to be drastically changed to make use of such a nib...flex ....... isn't always better, just saying.

My '40's 100n is "flex/superflex" the '50-65 are not....out side perhaps the steno nib...and the only steno nib I tried was not superflex at all. The 100n, will go 5X a light down stroke....Regular, Semi& Maxi are in a 3X a light down stroke flex set, so are not superflex....which is 4-5or 6 and seldom 7X tine spread a light down stroke.

 

(A modern 400/600 is a semi-nail...and I find the ride of a springy 'true' regular flex like a 200....'82-97 400 or the 150/200's of that era, to have a nicer ride.....of course the fat blobby modern 400/600 is butter smooth....but because of the reasons it was so made (Jack Hammer Ball Point Barbarians holding the fountain pen like a ball point), is characterless. IMO. The opinion of a couple of others too. As mentioned once I was a semi-flex snob. But I've come to admire the old 'true' regular flex '82-97 400/150/200'/Celebry/38X/39Xs. It is a good ride, and being dryer...less tine spread, is better with many shading ink and paper combo's. Do I agree, 'semi-flex is not always better. Do please read my signature.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Well, as far as I can tell, my hand writing changed because I went from 'classic tripod' to 'forefinger up'' not from the nib in use, in I do have a CI...fat M (had been a no line variation OB), and Parker Vac with BB '36 Canadian Factory nail, and a few other nails like a P-51 and a couple of new Lamys, a couple of semi-nails .... A P-75, 600.

I do nothing different, in normal writing. Should I want to flex a descender or fancy up a crossed T....I have to decide to add pressure and draw that portion of the letter. Wet Noodles do that with out much effort; but that is a much different kettle of fish than semi-flex.

 

I have come to like the 'true' regular flex of semi-vintage and vintage..... Once I was a semi-flex snob... .....I am not good enough to really use my Superflex nibs as they could be used.....I just write with them using my normal style.....in it takes work; practice to learn to draw the letters, until they become learned and easy (I am lazy).....If my Hand was light....and it's a lot of work to make it so super light I could write XXF with my Waterman 52...normally it's just an F.................I keep it at BB and don't go to BBB, in I don't want to stress/spring the nib.

 

Tiny tipping material???? EF?? ........Well I seldom use EF even if nail (good for editing), regular flex or semi or maxi (not so good for editing....in I'm still a tad heavy handed so it ends up an F any way.. The Superflex comes in that/EF.

I have no problems with the stubbed tipping in F, M, B or BB....be that regular or oblique.

If you look at your Pelikan it is stub. Now for tiny tipping material there are some Osmia....and I have an OBB where the tipping is only a flattened blob in the center of the nib, with the edges looking bare. The nib writes very well. Osmia being always broke had to save pennies where ever they could.

'Iridium' of any mixture was always much more expensive than gold so the Germans were 'sparsam'/cheap with it. With the flex of the nib they could get away with it, easier than the Americans who went over to the American Bump Under earlier....like '30's Parker and it's nails. There was no give in the nib to lessen wear of the tipping.

 

 

I noticed in my 'no name' '60's semi-flex they had gone over to the American Bump Under.

 

I do confess to thinking with my first hand full of inherited vintage German pens, that because of the stubbed nibs, that some shadetree mechanic had stubbed them. I was wrong. But you'd really think the shade tree mechanic screw it up...the tipping on many of the Osmia pens is really tiny and in the center of the nib....not the full across stubbing of a Pelikan.

 

Any of the companies that made nibs with a tad of flex, Soennecken, MB, Pelikan, Osmia, Kaweco stubbed their nibs. It was the style wanted, and the flexing of the nib cause less wear on that 'tiny' tipping.

Nail...Lamy didn't, neither did it's sub company regular flex Artus didn't either, so had the American Bump Under.

 

XXXXXXXXXXXX

Edited September 26, 2016 by Bo Bo Olson

[pajaro]

I have some kind of vintage with a semi flexible EF nib. I don't use the flex, just a light touch to keep the tines together, giving a delightful thin line. So, even if you don't like flex, you can still enjoy a pen immensely. It can be all things to all people. The nails are more appreciated by me. The smooth Pelikan tipping is wonderful. For me, flex or nail I curse them not and get from them the pleasure they offer.

[christof]

If you had a finite amount of money, say USD 300 - would you buy some vintage Pelikans or some new Pelikans?

 

I'm making this up now, but USD 300 can get a vintage 140 + 400, it can also get a 205 aquamarine and the 205 blue marble.

 

What would you take, any why?

 

Cheers!

Vintage Pelikan 100, 100N or 400 because of the nibs.

c.

[Nyanzilla]

I prefer new pens. Or at least the newer (from the 80s till now).

[Bluey]

Vintage without a doubt. Modern Pelikans are mostly high priced but lower quality.

 

Vintage are a lot more substantial.

Edited September 29, 2016 by Bluey

[sargetalon]

Vintage without a doubt. Modern Pelikans are mostly high priced but lower quality.

 

Vintage are a lot more substantial.

I think the comment about the quality of today's pens is a little misleading and unfair. The nibs of today have less character and expression and the prices are higher priced, sure but the pens are not lacking in quality.

[Bluey]

I think the comment about the quality of today's pens is a little misleading and unfair. The nibs of today have less character and expression and the prices are higher priced, sure but the pens are not lacking in quality.

I'm not sure. Pelikans(mostly their nibs) do appear to be rather problematic from the comments that I read online. And when I read lots of these of comments(usually misaligned tines and babys bottom) and then when I go and buy one and find that mine has one of those issues too, then I don't think I'm being unfair.

I saw recently that only 40% of Pelikans don't have an issue OOTB. My observations tally with that.

[sargetalon]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I respect yours. I don't doubt that you have encountered issues. Keep in mind though that you are far more likely to see accounts of issues and problems online. Satisfied customers don't take to posting nearly as often. This is the case with most products and a vocal minority can skew the anecdotal evidence. Truth is, nobody knows the number of units sold with issues vs without. It is therefore difficult to make a blanket statement about quality which is all I was suggesting. By way of example, I have 143 Pelikan fountain pens of which 47% were bought new. 90% of those have not had any issues out of the box. Of course, that is just my anecdotal evidence.

[christof]

The term quality is difficult to define when it comes to comparions between new and old. I think they just are different and some prefer the ones and some the others. Also the nibs. Vintage nibs are just different, and if you buy from the internet there is a not tiny risk of getting one with issues. This risk is even bigger than buying a new pen.

But if you get a fine one, you'll be happy.

C.

Edited September 30, 2016 by christof

[grainweevil]

Must admit I have been under-whelmed by my two vintage Pelikans, principally because of disappointing nibs - and given how many different vintage German piston fillers there are out there, for me there are better value alternatives available. Instead I find myself a slave to the M2xx series, and have way more of them than anyone not called Joshua really needs. My logical head tells me they're increasingly way over-priced for a steel nib plastic pen, but my bargain hunting head goes looking and manages to find enough savings to keep justifying them at the moment. I suspect Pelikan will price me out of the game quite soon though. Or I may even reach a point where I don't want another... (The M205 Blue Marbled is not that pen. Gorgeous.)

 

Am I weird? Probably. But I'm happy.

[Bluey]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I respect yours. I don't doubt that you have encountered issues. Keep in mind though that you are far more likely to see accounts of issues and problems online. Satisfied customers don't take to posting nearly as often. This is the case with most products and a vocal minority can skew the anecdotal evidence. Truth is, nobody knows the number of units sold with issues vs without. It is therefore difficult to make a blanket statement about quality which is all I was suggesting. By way of example, I have 143 Pelikan fountain pens of which 47% were bought new. 90% of those have not had any issues out of the box. Of course, that is just my anecdotal evidence.

I'm going by someone who tests Pelikans routinely.

 

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/162154-sending-a-new-pen-in-for-work-nib-replacementadjustmentflow-issuesetc-yeah-or-nay/

"In my job, I tune many Pelikan nibs every week. I would say only about 40% of them have no nib issues right out of the box!"

 

If you've had no issues with Pelikan nibs 90% of the time, then count yourself an extremely lucky man .

Edited September 30, 2016 by Bluey