Vintage Or New?

[kapilapshankar]

If you had a finite amount of money, say USD 300 - would you buy some vintage Pelikans or some new Pelikans?

 

I'm making this up now, but USD 300 can get a vintage 140 + 400, it can also get a 205 aquamarine and the 205 blue marble.

 

What would you take, any why?

 

Cheers!

[canibanoglu]

I would go with vintage myself and I would get a single pen.

 

Vintage because the nibs are much more varied.

[fplover01]

I guess there is no real correct answer to this... depends on a lot of factors and is highly personal.

 

If I had 300 usd, I would like to look at ebay for an older style M800 with an OB nib which I regret selling once. Or if I had more a new M80x with an IB nib. And if I had more money, I would get a Toledo, modern or vintage, for which I have started saving a hundred times and always spent the money on something else.

 

But I have several M800 pens with modern nibs, as well as various daily writers so I am looking for something more extraordinary for experimentation. If I was starting over, I would want to buy more cheaper pens to gather experience from using different nibs, modern and vintage.

Edited September 21, 2016 by fplover01

[amk]

Ooof, that's a very broad question. It depends on the model you want. If you collected Pelikano Junior you could get loads of pens for 300 bucks :-)

 

If you want a big size pen, you'll have to go for the modern ones.

 

If you want a flex nib, you'll have to go vintage.

 

If you want pink, it's a modern one I'm afraid :-)

 

I have both and love both. I find the vintage 400 crisper and edgier to write with, the modern m400s wet and bouncy.

[stephanos]

As amk says, you've worded your question very broadly.

 

But since you asked, I'll respond using only the items you mentioned. If you were to give me $300 and force me to spend it all, and only on either vintage Pelikans or new Pelikans...

 

I would be tempted to go with the vintage options. This is because I value writing experience over looks. The 140 and vintage 400 vintage have superb writing capability. The modern 200 range is excellent (the most reliable in Pelikan's modern range, curiously), but offers a less expressive wriing experience.

 

However, tempted as I would find the vintage pens, I'd probably choose the new aquamarine and blue marble models. Why? I already have at least one each of the 140 and vintage 400, plus a couple of spare nibs, and don't have either of these new models.

[Bo Bo Olson]

Buy Used!!! Period. Spend a bit more and buy from someone reputable and knowledgeable, like the folks in the sales section on this com.

For 600, you will make out like a bandit.....buy any pen new....and you are black and blue.

 

A modern 200, in it has a nice springy 'true' regular flex nib.

A 400NN, a medium long but thin pen that somehow manages to old 1.97ml or so's worth of ink.

It can be either a semi-flex or a maxi-semi-flex. ( They are not "Flex" nibs ....but 'almost'...like half way.

and a 140 which will be semi-flex.

Get a 200, a 140 in semi-flex and a 400nn maxi-semi-flex and in that order. You should work your way up the flex ladder.

 

I would stay away from modern pens (outside the 200)....the 400/600's are now semi-nail, fat and blobby for the jack hammer handed Ball Point Barbarian. The 600 is a very nice looking light and nimble pen with good girth.....and a semi-flex nib will fit it. My 605 has the semi-flex B nib from my 400n in it.

There are many beautiful 600's....all semi-nail. It's nib is a fancy two tone gold semi-nail...but you can replace that nib with a monotone semi/maxi-semi-flex and only you would know it's supposed to be two toned....in 99% of the people are Ball Point Barbarians. And you have a great pen with a great nib.

 

The early W. Germany 800's had a very nice springy true regular flex nib....the modern ones....perhaps after '97 are nails.

The 1000 costs a lot, as a semi-flex nib...but it is 18K, instead of the older semi-flex 14 K, so can bend easier and stay bent. It is also a huge Giant pen. The 800 is a Large pen not particularly nimble.

 

The 600 is a medium long pen, the 200/400 are Standard. Both should be posted for the great balance no Large pen has.

The 140 is a perfect modern short shirt pocket pen in it is medium-small but posts exactly as long as a 400....a great pen.

 

I don't know what sort of pens you have had, but a used 200 is the first....in it gets you use to a springy 'true' regular flex nib. Most pen companies have gone over to regular issue of Nail or Semi-nail instead of the once 'true' regular flex nib. Many folks coming over from nail/semi-nail think the springy 'true' regular flex to be semi-flex....It ain't.

 

Manny to most of us are heavy handed. As long as you are not Jack Hammered handed, a 140 semi-flex can handle ham fistedness. It took me some three months with a 140, before my hand lightened up enough for maxi-semi-flex.

Those you need to order from folks on this com that would know the difference between a semi-flex and a maxi-semi-flex.

The early 400, 400n, 400NN and the 140 have stubbish nibs with some flex, so your writing gets nice flair with out doing a thing.

An Oblique from that era...1950-1965 is the Only Oblique worth buying. It gives you great line variation.

Regular flex, or modern semi-nail....none, and nails less than that.

 

Semi-vintage 400's ....'80-97 (& the 200/M100/150) are 'true' regular flex and @ 1/2 a width narrower than modern. The semi&maxi vintage 1950-65 nibs are also @ 1/2 a width narrower than modern, but add stub to the touch of flex, that the after '82 nibs don't have...they have the American Bump Under>

So a 140 OB would be like a M or a fat M, and the sweet spot is wide enough you don't have to worry about pen placement as much as an OM or OF.

The 140 was my first semi-flex that I had...I'd read about semi-flex here, and at a flea market here in Germany put the nib to my thumb and suddenly knew what all the fuss was all about.

(Later I was to find out I had a semi-flex....but thought it only one of those Wet Nibs many wish.)

 

Map, compass, and flashlight.

 

With the money left over in you bought good used pens....

Writing is 1/3 nib width/flex, 1/3 paper and 1/3 ink, and in that order.

We live in the Golden Age of Ink....so if you bought used....you can buy good to better paper and great ink.

Outside of 80g Rhoda and a 70g Japanese paper, you need 90g or better laser copy paper for your ink to shade....and you need both 'two toned' shading ink....and vivid 'boring' supersaturated inks. Your normal 80g copy paper is not good for shading and only good for your laser printer.

A ream of 90g or better....good to better paper only cost two cans of Coke from a machine, or two cups of Starbucks coffee more. Both are bad for you! They cut into good paper and inks and are empty calories.....

Do Not Ever use Ink Jet paper for a fountain pen...it causes ink to feather in it absorbs it too fast.

So buy paper to write on if you are into expensive Ink Jet inks....and never ever use that in a fountain pen!!!!!!!

 

When you go to Ink Reviews, always look for Ink Reviews from Sandy1, our Ink Guru. She used normal pens, some 4-5 different decent and 'affordable' papers....and often it is unbelievable that, that is the same ink on each of the papers!

Edited September 21, 2016 by Bo Bo Olson

[sargetalon]

With $300, I would get a 140 and a 400NN. Balance, size, styling, and nibs are second to none. The caveat would be that extra money may be needed to get them in writing condition and I always budget for that when buying used vintage pens. I do not do that for modern pens.

[tragique]

Vintage, for sure. Either 400nn or early M400.

[mana]

Do go vintage! Even though I have large hands I do prefer the 100N, it is a light, compact/pocketable pen, self-serviceable (you can take the newer/post WWII one apart completely without special tools), holds a ton of ink, comes with a wide assortment of nibs (mostly flexy) that you can switch by just unscrewing the nib unit and screwing the replacement in.

The section, due to it being slightly longer than say one in the 400/400NN, is also the most comfortable out of all the Pelikans I have tried (100, 100N Pre & Post WWII, 400, 400NN, 120/140, M200, M400 etc.). The girth also feels comfortable, proportions are spot on.

When posted the pen grows to a length most people seem to feel comfortable with. Very rugged too... You can still find good quality ones in $100-150 range, even lower too if you know where to look and have some patience.

Second favorite is 140, great pens and nibs even though the size alone might put some people off. Worth a try though and those can be had for sub $100.

Just got a M200 Blue Marble in F and even though it is a nice pen... it can't hold a candle to the old ones.

[Bo Bo Olson]

If you post medium-small like the 140 which posts as long as the posted Standard 400, they are not small pens....unless you are a 7 foot center .... so hand size really don't matter that much...and posted they have the great balance a Large pen does not have.

 

Back in the Day, of One Man, One Pen....any top of the line pen had to have great balance, in the completion all did. ...Modern does have the same great balance in the 200/400/600 that the 140-no gold ring 400's have....but the nibs are better, more lively....softer ride, more fun.

 

Many of the folks that complain a 400/200 or the 140 is too small for them do not post the pen for religious reasons.....and then complain it is too small. .

 

I am not prejudiced.....in I have tried enough pens. However, the long posting medium-small , Standard or medium-large pens were mostly plastic....so they were light and nimble, and could be written with all the 8 hours of the day....IMO modern metal Large pens are not what you want if you was to get in your DeLorian and end up back where one wrote all day.

 

There were few heavy metal large pens back in vintage days....and the Standard sized P-75 is a very light metal pen, and one of my first three perfect balanced pens.

I do have a very heavy MB rolled gold 742 that is a Standard pen...was chasing the '50's nib...and not letting a Dealer at a live auction get a nib he didn't care a bit about.

 

Well, I grew up in the day of the Standard and medium-large pens ...that were posted of course....many younger folks grew up in the days of Large clunky pens that get super clunky posted...so take the ill balanced unposted Large pens as normal.

 

I have a medium-large '50's 146 that has great balance. They became Large pens sometime in the late '60's to early '70's. I have a '70-80's 146 also. It takes me always a couple of minutes to get use to it....in it is slightly clunky. A bit short unposted too. It lacks balance, the older 146 has.

[mana]

Oh yeah, forgot to say, I suppose I am one of "'em religious people" as I never post my pens But seriously, the 100N is very comfortable even when used unposted in my paws, could be something to do with my grip.

[Bo Bo Olson]

Sigh, you miss all the great balance those pens have....sigh.

[kapilapshankar]

Wow. Wow. Wow. Looks like vintage wins by an overwhelming majority.

 

@tragique: You mentioned early M400. They're comparable to other other vintage options, and different than the new M400s?

 

What would be the upper year limit for these? Mid 80's?

 

Cheers!

[biancitwo]

For the best vintage Pelikan experience, look for 1950s and earlier. My best writers are a 100, from around 1933, 2 100Ns from late 1940s, or early 1950s, 400N from about 1957, a 400 from early 1950s, and three 140s from later 1950s. These are exquisite. These are not flex nibs, but are quite expressive. They are well built pens that lay down beautiful lines. These are available, with patience, at good prices. If you want new pens, the M600, and the superb M800 are great pens. I would always send these to a nibmeister for modification to an italic. Pendleton Brown is my nibmeister of choice. They are all wonderful pens, joys to use.

[mirosc]

Why limit yourself?

For $300 you can easily get both one vintage and one modern.

For example a 100N from the 40s and a M6xx from the 90s (or a totally different pen).

It's enough money to get a real good starter kit from both worlds.

Vintage Pelikans are nice, but they aren't necessarily a universal solution.

Edited September 24, 2016 by mirosc

[Bo Bo Olson]

I'd start with the '50's the 140, 400, 400n, 400nn in Semi-flex. I'd save the '30-40's for later.

I forgot to say, one of the reasons is some of those nibs are the first stage of Superflex. I have a 100n, that has an Easy Full Flex nib....so for someone new to nibs with some flex, might well be too much....and the nib would be easy to spring.

I have a couple of years experience with Easy Full Flex...and can tell when I press a nib to my thumb nail @ what flex it has. That nib maxes at 5 X...up to BBB a light down stroke, I do not take it over 4 X or BB.

Go to Richard Bender's site, he had a Grand article of how to spring your nib.

There is no reason to buy such a nib right off the bat...and jump into the deep end of the pool with out waterwings.

 

See it depends on how heavy handed you are....and many of us were and some still are Ham Fisted.

As I explained it took three months on a 'sturdy' 140 & it's semi-flex nib to lighten my Hand up enough for a '50's 400 Pelikan with maxi-semi-flex nib.

 

The semi-flex with stood my Ham Fistedness, which is why I suggest the medium small 140 in it will be semi-flex. It posts exactly as long as the standard 400, and is a perfect pen for today's short shirt pocket. It was a very popular size back then.....just about every German company made one.

It is not in reality a small pen....when posted as it should be.

use a bit of wax and you will never have posting mars. (which clean off real easy anyway).

 

The other '50's 400&400n and '56-65 400NN...500, can be semi-flex or maxi-semi-flex....willi nillie. no rhyme nor reason.

The nib on the pen was what the man who bought the pen at the corner pen shop wanted. Those nibs are not marked.

 

So if you are Ham Fisted....ie all you use is nails (like a modern 800) and semi-nails (like a modern 400/600) you might well be so. Some folks are so heavy handed that when they come over to 'true' regular flex they think it must be semi-flex.

 

So to 'Save The Nib' I suggest three months with a semi-flex. Look to see which folks selling their pens in the Sales Section, know the difference. A $$$$Sprung nib can be repaired, but it will never be quite the same.

 

I was Ham Fisted.... ..even though I used a fountain pen in the late '50s and early '60s. I'd been ruined by the Ball Point that is like plowing the south forty with out the mule.....I had it all, Ham Fist, Death Grip, and the dreaded Kung Fu Thumb Pinch.....and my 140 semi-flex survived all that.

I don't know if a maxi-semi-flex would have.

 

Some folks don't have enough vintage German pens from that era to know the difference between semi-flex and maxi-semi-flex.

I have some 27 semi-flex and some 16 maxi-semi-flex nibbed pens.

 

Osmia's nibs are marked, a number in the Diamond = semi-flex, Supra = maxi-semi-flex.

Edited September 24, 2016 by Bo Bo Olson

[Monbla]

After using Pelikans for over 40 years now I'd have to say that I would go with almost any of their pens made BEFORE the late '80s. my personal preference is for the 400 series made in the 1950's. These are the 400, 400N & 400NN and all were made with lovely flexible 14k monochrome nibs and as usual, Pelikans wonderful piston filling system. They are what I would say is the perfect size both when capped and when posting the cap and the caps post well wjth no wiggling. ( in fact most of all the other models made by them are this way as well, I just prefer the looks of the 400's !) Another model I use from this time period is the IBIS which is a slightly shorter pen which becomes slightly longer when the cap is posted and comes with the same lovely 14k nibs as were available on the 400s!!

The modern (post 1985) pens have become too blingy for my tatse and they now used 10 penny nails made to for look like a nib for their nibs these days. They are smooth and if you like bling and a smooth nail type nb then go modrn but I'd take the $300.00 and spend it on vintage !!

Edited September 24, 2016 by Monbla

[Calabria]

I think the current nibs are getting a bad rap here. I have both old and new m800 nibs and I really like the current ones, if for different reasons (i.e., they write really well -). But the price increases are something I won't continue to support.

 

For 300$, I'd get a NOS pre-1989 M400 - a much better deal than the ridiculously priced current M200s.

[Bo Bo Olson]

In I have semi-flex '50's 140's & 400s, I was told by a passed member who was once one of the better Pelikan posters, that I was spoiled and buying a '82-90 W.Germany 400, I'd not notice much better than my '90-96 (in it was Tortoise, green continued until '97.) It was better but only a tad....and I was already use to semi-flex.

 

But as a first 400 that would be something ....and why not in tortoise. Tortoise don't run any more than green striped on German Ebay. A W. Germany green stripped 400 went for 130 Euro, some 10 more than I bid....(Is ok instead I got a 500) and a no gold ring 400 can be had for 100-130 Euro, if you hunt.

 

Calabria.....you have a W. Germany 800?

 

That is the only way to know if the nib is that very nice springy 'true' regular flex. The 400's W.German nib was also a tad better than the nice Germany @'90/91-to '97. After that with the ring came in the semi-nail.

It could well be that the 800 had a slightly lesser 'true' reflex nib up to when the 400 got ruined in '98....but no one dates when the nail came in as standard for the 800.

 

I would buy a W. Germany 800, even if I find it clunky....for the nib. I had the pleasure of a few day's use, when I trans-mailed it to a friend in Spain, in there are idiots in Germany who refuse to mail outside of Germany.

It would give me nightmares to even think of buying a modern 800....I have enough nails and a nail's a nail....good to stub or make into a CI, only. IMO of course.

[wastelanded]

For me vintage wins by a mile especially in regards to Pelikan (and Montblanc). Bo Bo has said many times, and it is my mantra..."chase the nib". Modern Pelikan nibs are shamed by the pre-'65 ones. For $300, you could get two vintage 400s if you're patient in eBay.de. Don't worry about cosmetics. A good nib and a smooth working piston, and you're set.

 

The nib's the thing.