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Please Advise Me On Black Ink For Official Records; Must Not Feather

black ink permanent waterproof

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43 replies to this topic

#21 Tas

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Posted 07 September 2016 - 12:47

First, use a fine pen that writes kind of dry.  Platinum Plaisirs are a good bet IMO; when the nib is fine, the tipping is only 0.3mm, and if you need finer, you can swap in a 0.2mm nib/section from a Preppy.  

Of the Noodler's blacks, I recommend Heart of Darkness.  It dries more quickly than basic original Black, and stands up to every chemical assault ever applied to it.  It doesn't feather appreciably on regular copy paper or off-brand self-stick notes.

You might do better to try one of the Japanese nano-carbon inks like Sailor Kiwa-Guro or Platinum Carbon Black.  

And yes, I'd grab a blank form or two, write on it, and take it to HIM/Medical Records and see what they think.

 

This.

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#22 Flaxmoore

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Posted 07 September 2016 - 20:35

That was not the question. I was asking why black ink is mandatory.
 
I just stated that in Sweden it doesn't seem to be mandatory, hence I wondered why it's mandatory in the US of A.


It's not universal. I'm a doctor, and in hospitals I've worked in, as long as it photocopies black, no one cares. That's everyone- students, nursing, therapy, docs, the whole place. Most go black, blue or blue black if using an fp, but I've seen deep purples and greens as well.

My best bet would be a medium or fine Preppy, eyedropper conversion, with either Heart of Darkness or Platinum Carbon Black. This combo doesn't even show through much on ekg paper, which is very thin and easily shows nearly everything.

What's odd is the permanence requirement. Aside from water, ballpoints aren't very resistant. The HoD is eternal- those records will outlive the patient.

Physician- signing your scripts with Skrips!

I'm so tough I vacation in Detroit.


#23 ehemem

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Posted 07 September 2016 - 21:11

That was not the question. I was asking why black ink is mandatory.

 

I just stated that in Sweden it doesn't seem to be mandatory, hence I wondered why it's mandatory in the US of A.

 

Older photocopiers, or the original photocopiers, couldn't deal with colors other than black or dark blue, so it was mandated that all paper medical records had to be in black. Newer photocopiers can reproduce other colors either as black (in black and white photocopiers) or in color, but institutions that still have paper medical records just haven't gotten around to reviewing and revising archaic protocols.

 

There were places where nursing notes were color coded depending on what shift they were written on...



#24 Arkanabar

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Posted 08 September 2016 - 01:37

As far as I know, black ink is still required by the Center for Medicare and Medicaid Services, the largest payer in the US (even as they roll out reduced reimbursement for those who are not using EMRs).  I believe (but won't promise) that it's also required by the Joint Commission, the premier healthcare accreditation organization in the US, and one of the most respected in the world.



#25 deacondavid

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Posted 08 September 2016 - 02:46

I would add my voice to those speaking in favor of Kiwa-Guro as the ink choice. I use it in a Pilot Custom 743 with a Posting nib, which seems to handle even the worst of papers (post-it notes, for example) decently. The Posting nib has, thus far, become my "go to" nib for paperwork on most office forms. Sadly, Pilot still does not offer the nib on any of its pens in the US. If you want one, look on Amazon or order from Japan - you'll be able to choose between the Custom 912, the Custom 742 - these are the less expensive options - and the Custom 743.

 

If you're looking for a stealthier fountain pen, you might consider purchasing a Vanishing Point or its siblings, the Decimo or the Fermo. While the stock Extra Fine nib is pretty good on paperwork when paired with Kiwa Guro, a custom ground needlepoint nib unit is even better.


Current Daily Carry: Pilot Custom 743 with 14k Posting nib (Sailor Kiwa-Guro), Sailor 1911L Realo Champagne with 21k Extra Fine nib (Sailor Tokiwa-Matsu). Platinum Century 3776 Bourgogne (Diamine Syrah), Nakaya Portable Writer Midori with 14k Extra Extra Fine nib (Lamy Peridot), Pilot Vanishing Point Stealth Black with Extra Fine nib unit (Pilot Blue Black), a dozen Nockco DotDash index cards of various sizes and a Traveler's Notebook.


#26 Pensei

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Posted 08 September 2016 - 04:08

deacondavid, you have stirred up the interest I already had in the posting nib. 



#27 BlazeOrangeGuy

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Posted 08 September 2016 - 17:02

Again, thanks to everyone, but a special hat tip to BOG for that very informative post. I like the idea of using a Lamy 2K as sort of a stealth pen. Do we have confidence that it's OK to use a carbon ink in a piston filler? I don't know much about those inks except what I read on Platinum's website.

 

 

I use Kiwa Guro in my Lamy 2K all the time. No problems at all :) 



#28 BlazeOrangeGuy

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Posted 08 September 2016 - 17:50

It's not universal. I'm a doctor, and in hospitals I've worked in, as long as it photocopies black, no one cares. That's everyone- students, nursing, therapy, docs, the whole place. Most go black, blue or blue black if using an fp, but I've seen deep purples and greens as well.

My best bet would be a medium or fine Preppy, eyedropper conversion, with either Heart of Darkness or Platinum Carbon Black. This combo doesn't even show through much on ekg paper, which is very thin and easily shows nearly everything.

What's odd is the permanence requirement. Aside from water, ballpoints aren't very resistant. The HoD is eternal- those records will outlive the patient.

 

On one Christmas when I was working the holiday at the rehab hospital, a group of us gathered behind the nurse's station and the physiatrist working that day was in a rather festive mood. She pulled out a bright Christmas red ink pen and started writing her orders and other documentation. She said something to the effect of, "Med records will hate me for his, but I don't care, it's the holidays!" Funny story! I think physicians get a little leeway with hospital administration where other staff have to be more careful. 

 

It sounds like the standards vary per hospital policy. The hospital I worked in - the standard was black ink, had to be legible, and had to be able to be copied. I didn't use a permanent ink at the time (gasp!!) probably because I wasn't aware of their existence at the time (late 1990's). I never had a problem. Again, most of my documentation was on computer anyway, or dictated and then typed out for me to sign later. One of the things that always ran through my head was, "how will this appear in a court case?" I could imagine an attorney asking me, if I had written in a non-standard ink color, "So, do you not take your job seriously? Seems like you didn't follow policy here... what does this say about your competence..." 

 

I'd follow Flaxmoore's advice... Sounds like the carbon inks or HOD will work for you. 



#29 sciumbasci

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Posted 09 September 2016 - 11:15

Although I'd go for a ballpoint pen (do not bother with the ISO standard. All meet requirements except for the erasable inks a la Pilot Frixion or Papermate Replay), if you REALLY want to use an FP, use a pigmented ink like Sailor or Platinum

#30 AndyYNWA

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Posted 09 September 2016 - 11:38

Considering the risk of dropping the pen, I would probably also have gone with a ballpoint pen. But it hurt to say it...

 

I think I would have picked up a Fisher Space Pen, probably an AG7.


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#31 jmccarty3

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Posted 09 September 2016 - 12:48

As far as I know, black ink is still required by the Center for Medicare and Medicaid Services, the largest payer in the US (even as they roll out reduced reimbursement for those who are not using EMRs).  I believe (but won't promise) that it's also required by the Joint Commission, the premier healthcare accreditation organization in the US, and one of the most respected in the world.

 

I just looked through the CMS regulations on medical records, and ink color is not mentioned, other than stating that the record must be legible and must photocopy clearly.

 

Did you know that there are more CMS regulations than IRS regulations?


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#32 Arkanabar

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Posted 10 September 2016 - 18:47

 

I just looked through the CMS regulations on medical records, and ink color is not mentioned, other than stating that the record must be legible and must photocopy clearly.

 

Did you know that there are more CMS regulations than IRS regulations?

Somebody needs to point this out to the folks over at the American Health Information Management Association, especially those who are writing textbooks.  Or it may just be that my knowledge is out of date.  I finished school for my RHIT in 2013, and let it lapse earlier this year.



#33 deacondavid

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Posted 11 September 2016 - 02:10

deacondavid, you have stirred up the interest I already had in the posting nib. 

 

It's a recent addition to my collection (July), but it is already one of my favorites and a daily carry pen. I haven't tried anything other than Kiwa Guro in it, but, then again, I really don't feel a need to...

 

I had been seriously considering one for close to a year and I am glad that I finally bit the bullet!


Edited by deacondavid, 11 September 2016 - 02:11.

Current Daily Carry: Pilot Custom 743 with 14k Posting nib (Sailor Kiwa-Guro), Sailor 1911L Realo Champagne with 21k Extra Fine nib (Sailor Tokiwa-Matsu). Platinum Century 3776 Bourgogne (Diamine Syrah), Nakaya Portable Writer Midori with 14k Extra Extra Fine nib (Lamy Peridot), Pilot Vanishing Point Stealth Black with Extra Fine nib unit (Pilot Blue Black), a dozen Nockco DotDash index cards of various sizes and a Traveler's Notebook.


#34 5Cavaliers

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Posted 11 September 2016 - 03:00

May I suggest another permanent ink that is completely waterproof? Dr. Ph. Martin's Ocean Fountain Pen Ink in Dark Matter Black.

I was sent a bottle of this to review. I generally don't care for permanent inks and I am not a fan of black ink, and so I wasn't initially impressed.

But recently, I started using this ink again, and I must say that I love it. It is difficult to clean out - which is the only negative. But the flow is wonderful, and it is waterproof and permanent.

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#35 PS104

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Posted 11 September 2016 - 04:13

My mother used to be a nurse in a  hospital and worked the night shift. Then it was standard practice that the night shift records were written in red (Don't know about swing shift. I was too young too young to know about such things)

That being said, my advice is to pick your battles. As some have opined, the fountain pen. Fuhgeddaboudit. Enjoy using it in circumstances that won't jeopardize your job and you won't get hassled for using it.



#36 Pensei

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Posted 11 September 2016 - 05:48

 

It's a recent addition to my collection (July), but it is already one of my favorites and a daily carry pen. I haven't tried anything other than Kiwa Guro in it, but, then again, I really don't feel a need to...

 

I had been seriously considering one for close to a year and I am glad that I finally bit the bullet!

Thanks for this comment. I have a 74 with XF, which is very nice, and pretty much meets the "need to write small" needs, but the PO sounds like a thing unto itself. I have seen more than one comment to the effect of "it looks like it would be hard to write with, but it isn't." 



#37 Flaxmoore

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Posted 11 September 2016 - 21:22

Somebody needs to point this out to the folks over at the American Health Information Management Association, especially those who are writing textbooks.  Or it may just be that my knowledge is out of date.  I finished school for my RHIT in 2013, and let it lapse earlier this year.


I know it wasn't regulation in 2012 when I started residency- I used a blue Pilot g2 before moving to fountains. The only iron rule is that it copies black.

Physician- signing your scripts with Skrips!

I'm so tough I vacation in Detroit.


#38 ehemem

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Posted 11 September 2016 - 22:46

My mother used to be a nurse in a  hospital and worked the night shift. Then it was standard practice that the night shift records were written in red (Don't know about swing shift. I was too young too young to know about such things)

That being said, my advice is to pick your battles. As some have opined, the fountain pen. Fuhgeddaboudit. Enjoy using it in circumstances that won't jeopardize your job and you won't get hassled for using it.

 

 

In one hospital I worked in during the early 1970s, swing shift used green, day shift used either black or blue. Doctors always used black.



#39 Sasha Royale

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Posted 12 September 2016 - 22:52

I like  gryphon1911 's  approach.  First-hand information is better than accepting the judgement of people, who do not occupy your situation.  

 

Carrying the issue further --  fold sheets of your paper, and mail them to members, who might volunteer to write a few lines with various inks.  Perhaps, you can ask that a dry tissue be wiped over the writing, after five seconds, and ten seconds.  

 

Just a warning.  Iron Gall inks are usually not black.  Fast-drying inks will dry fast on paper  AND  in the pen feed.  

 

In view of the consequences of being wrong,  a ballpoint, accountant's, pen might be more appropriate.  


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#40 justaninker

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Posted 13 September 2016 - 04:58

I'm also not aware of the black ink requirement. I have consented patients to surgeries using Texas Blue Bonnet, Kung Te-Cheng, my own bulletproof miruai mix, and Whaleman's Sepia, among others...Never had a problem. I guess doctors do get away with some of these regulations, although I do ensure that the ink is permanent and water/bulletproof.

 

However, as I stare at my notes written in Whaleman's Sepia scanned into the EMR, those written with fine nibs do scan less well. I would recommend a Japanese medium/western fine nib, but not Japanese fine or XF.







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