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[Advice Requested] Sailor Nagahara Nibs: Cross Point Orx King Eagle

sailor king eagle cross point comparison nagahara nib

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#1 tabata

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Posted 03 July 2016 - 18:55

So here I am, wanting to jump into Sailor Nagahara speciality nibs and asking for some wisdom.

 

I have reduced my dilema to two "similar" nibs: the Cross Point and the King Eagle. They are similar in that they work on similar mechanical principles: 2 or 3 nibs welded on top of each other; what accounts for 1 or 2 "crosses" formed by the 4 or 6 tines respectively (if you know the nibs, you know what I mean by 'cross' in this case; if you don't know the nibs, just check Sailor's web page: http://sailorpen.com...hara-story.html) (I'm attaching a couple pics so you can see it).

 

The differences (those that I want to put on the table)

 

Price: Having 2 or 3 gold nibs is simply not the same. Let us put this non-techical issue aside.

 

Line variation: It is my impression that both nibs can produce the same fine lines when writing at the same high angles (close to 90º). However, the 2 crosses in the King Eagle provide a bigger contact surface, and will thus produce a thicker side-stroke at lower angles (below 30º).

 

And here comes my (big) doubt: What does happen between 40º and 60º?

 

I'd like to use this pen as an every-day writer. I typically use a B nib for that and write at an angle of over 45º. I don't want to be forced into an unnatural angle to write my notes, but want the freedom to write a range of different lines whenever inspiration demands it. So I guess that the right question for those of you familiar with these two nibs (I'm sure there are a few) is: how does line thickness progress in each of this nibs while lowering the angle? A simpler question would be: do they behave differently (regarding line thickness) at typical writing angles? And if so, how?

 

I can imagine that the King Eagle will lay down a thicker line than the Cross Point at those angles, but I might be wrong and the difference may start at even lower angles. In the first case, I would go for the the Cross Point, but in later case, I'd love to make an extraordinary economical effort and go for the King Eagle.

 

I leave a couple pics of both nibs and a super cool before-after series of the Cross Point, so you can better understand my disquisition.

 

Thank you all.

 

Cross Point.jpg King Eagle.JPG m7_New-Angle.jpg m7_New-Face.jpg m7_New-Side.jpg

 

 

 

 

 



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#2 Algester

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Posted 04 July 2016 - 02:36

question is... you say everyday writer... you will need to have inks on your person if your going to do that as the nib is hungry for ink... are you ready?

joking aside provided Sailor has put back the manufacturing of the nibs in question cross point is BB on the cross stroke but write like a B on the down stroke
unlike their naginata-togi counter parts which would have line variation depending on the angle, and no there is no angle variation for the non naginata-togi nagahara nibs at least from my initial experience from writing with one

#3 wijko

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Posted 04 July 2016 - 09:58

In your overview there are two missing, the Cross Music nib and the King Cobra nib. The Cross Music has finer downstrokes than the other two, and consists of two nib layers. The King Cobra is super broad in all directions. I don't have all four nibs on me at the moment, but I do own them.

 

A few months ago SBRE Brown used my complete nib set for review, and put them on his youtube channel. https://www.youtube....hbQBQnE8yv1-9RA

 

I will try to put a side to side picture with the four different nibs in different angles on a page later today or tomorrow.


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#4 katanankes

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Posted 04 July 2016 - 15:17

In my eperience, the togi ones have _a little_ line variation depending on the angle. Just a little. 

 

question is... you say everyday writer... you will need to have inks on your person if your going to do that as the nib is hungry for ink... are you ready?

joking aside provided Sailor has put back the manufacturing of the nibs in question cross point is BB on the cross stroke but write like a B on the down stroke
unlike their naginata-togi counter parts which would have line variation depending on the angle, and no there is no angle variation for the non naginata-togi nagahara nibs at least from my initial experience from writing with one



#5 wijko

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Posted 04 July 2016 - 19:45

I just did some writing comparison between the Cross Music nib, Cross nib, King Eagle nib and King Cobra nib. 

The angles used: reverse writing, Perpendicular (90 degrees), my normal writing (about 45 degrees), steep slope (around 60 degrees), fairly flat (around 30 degrees).

 

See pictures for reference:

 

fpn_1467661130__img_6034.jpg

 

 

fpn_1467661140__img_6035.jpg


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#6 tabata

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Posted 04 July 2016 - 22:46

In your overview there are two missing, the Cross Music nib and the King Cobra nib. The Cross Music has finer downstrokes than the other two, and consists of two nib layers. The King Cobra is super broad in all directions. I don't have all four nibs on me at the moment, but I do own them.

 

A few months ago SBRE Brown used my complete nib set for review, and put them on his youtube channel. https://www.youtube....hbQBQnE8yv1-9RA

 

I will try to put a side to side picture with the four different nibs in different angles on a page later today or tomorrow.

 

Wijko, amazing job! (and amazing collection of Nagahara nibs!) You do rock! I appreciate it so much.

 

I discarded the King Cobra since it is too broad when used at a typical writing angle. I can hardly see my self taking notes with such nib.

 

 

I just did some writing comparison between the Cross Music nib, Cross nib, King Eagle nib and King Cobra nib. 

The angles used: reverse writing, Perpendicular (90 degrees), my normal writing (about 45 degrees), steep slope (around 60 degrees), fairly flat (around 30 degrees).

 

See pictures for reference:

 

fpn_1467661130__img_6034.jpg

 

 

fpn_1467661140__img_6035.jpg

 

I thought that the cross music nib would be broader than the cross point and even the king eagle at similar, typical (say 45º) writing angles (hence the 'music/stuby' part of its name). But this seems to be wrong, as showed by your samples. The cross music seems to produce the "thinest" side strokes at 45º (or is it some perspective thing?). Would you say that is a B-2B?

 

In the second pic, I notice that the 45º and 30º side strokes of the cross music do not differ greatly (interesting). Also that, at 60º, the cross music side strokes are thiner than those of the cross point (consistent with the differences at 45º). The weird thing is that the side strokes of the cross point at 45º seem to be thicker than at 30º O_o  (strange).

 

In conclusion, assuming these nibs are representative of their respective kinds, I should be considering the cross point and the cross music in my decision (and leave the king eagle for christmas 2047). It seems that the cross music might be better suited for taking notes in a regular basis, by behaving like a B+ when writing at typical (45º) angles, but still allowing for great variation at flatter angles. Now the only problem is to find it in a King of Pen (I never saw this combo listed anywhere) and at a good price. The King of Pen + Cross Point nib is much more common, but since, as katanakes points out, Sailor is not manufacturing speciality nibs this days (or at least not in big quantities), it might be hard to find this pen. Any suggestions?

 

Thank you wijko for the samples. They are very enlightening. I'll let you know how this story ends  :)



#7 25_15_3

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Posted 05 July 2016 - 03:00

In your overview there are two missing, the Cross Music nib and the King Cobra nib. The Cross Music has finer downstrokes than the other two, and consists of two nib layers. The King Cobra is super broad in all directions. I don't have all four nibs on me at the moment, but I do own them.

 

A few months ago SBRE Brown used my complete nib set for review, and put them on his youtube channel. https://www.youtube....hbQBQnE8yv1-9RA

 

I will try to put a side to side picture with the four different nibs in different angles on a page later today or tomorrow.

 

Thanks for the link. Didn't know sbrebrown did - I guess - mini-reviews of the Sailor nibs. 



#8 wijko

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Posted 05 July 2016 - 07:07

 

Wijko, amazing job! (and amazing collection of Nagahara nibs!) You do rock! I appreciate it so much.

 

I discarded the King Cobra since it is too broad when used at a typical writing angle. I can hardly see my self taking notes with such nib.

 

 

 

I thought that the cross music nib would be broader than the cross point and even the king eagle at similar, typical (say 45º) writing angles (hence the 'music/stuby' part of its name). But this seems to be wrong, as showed by your samples. The cross music seems to produce the "thinest" side strokes at 45º (or is it some perspective thing?). Would you say that is a B-2B?

 

In the second pic, I notice that the 45º and 30º side strokes of the cross music do not differ greatly (interesting). Also that, at 60º, the cross music side strokes are thiner than those of the cross point (consistent with the differences at 45º). The weird thing is that the side strokes of the cross point at 45º seem to be thicker than at 30º O_o  (strange).

 

In conclusion, assuming these nibs are representative of their respective kinds, I should be considering the cross point and the cross music in my decision (and leave the king eagle for christmas 2047). It seems that the cross music might be better suited for taking notes in a regular basis, by behaving like a B+ when writing at typical (45º) angles, but still allowing for great variation at flatter angles. Now the only problem is to find it in a King of Pen (I never saw this combo listed anywhere) and at a good price. The King of Pen + Cross Point nib is much more common, but since, as katanakes points out, Sailor is not manufacturing speciality nibs this days (or at least not in big quantities), it might be hard to find this pen. Any suggestions?

 

Thank you wijko for the samples. They are very enlightening. I'll let you know how this story ends   :)

 

Tabata,

 

I didn't know you were looking for a nib in a King of Pens sized pen. This limits your choice in nibs a lot.

As can be seen on this page: http://www.sailorpen...hara-story.html only the following nibs are available for the KOP series:

- 21kt Medium and Broad (not the H-M and H-B, but a bit more flexible)

- 21kt Naginata Togi NMF, NM and NB

- 21kt Nagahara Cross Point

- 21kt Nagahara King Eagle

 

Also on the angle distribution, these nibs are meant for appr. 45 degree angle use. In every day writing I see the best use for the Cross Music nib out of this set. I prefer my KOP B and 1911 Large Naginata Togi Medium and Broad nibs, even though they have less line variation. I tried to make the shots as straight as possible, and the Cross Music does have the thinnest side stroke for real.

 

I still have to get myself all KOP Naginata Togi nibs, and for the 1911 Large series the Sai-bi Togi and most of the Emperor versions of the nibs, to complete my 21kt set. It is very addictive to get them all once you start collecting them. The Emperors are in my case least needed, since I mainly use my pens for writing, and the feed can keep up with the flow, but maybe I'll just end up buying them anyway.

 

If you live in the US, I'd try Nibs.com and in Europe, either La Couronne du Comte or Akkerman The Hague (vulpennen.nl). These three stores are my go to stores at this moment for Sailor pens.


A collector of inks, currently doing my own ink challenge.

 

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#9 wijko

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Posted 05 July 2016 - 07:13

 

Thanks for the link. Didn't know sbrebrown did - I guess - mini-reviews of the Sailor nibs. 

 

Stephen did this, since he had too little time due to the amount of reviews he had to do. He still has to do some other special reviews, which he plans on doing of other special pens I have to lend him. (not Sailor)

 

This was the easiest way for him to cover all different nibs in a short time. beware that the Music nib in the short review is a 14kt nib, and the King Eagle is a King of Pen sized nib.


A collector of inks, currently doing my own ink challenge.

 

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#10 oneill

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Posted 05 July 2016 - 08:56

Can I point out that details of all nibs are posted on the
engeika site with details of how they were designed by Mr Nagahara there may be further details if you search that site which is
very comprehensive, I think they also sell about 5
Japanese pen brands namely SAILOR,PLATINUM, PILOT NAMIKI,WANCHER
and lots of pen related items.I have bought from this dealer many pens and have never had a bad experience, their prices are very
very competitive and service is always top class,Trust Me. oneill

Edited by oneill, 05 July 2016 - 08:59.


#11 Willis

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Posted 05 July 2016 - 19:07

If you're trying to get a sailor specialty nib from engeika, be sure to email them about availability first, just because an item is listed as being in stock does not mean it is. Frankly, unless you have really big handwriting (huge), I don't think the cross point nib is going to work for you for actual everyday writing. While I haven't used the king eagle, I have had a couple cross points, so I imagine this would be even more the case with the eagle. As has been mentioned, the cross music nib is a far more practical grind for normal use. I found I could use the cross point for "normal" writing, but it took way too much concentration to try to hold it at a high angle, especially in the King of pen size. I actually sold my 1911 large cross point and am having Masuyama San grind my KOP version to a cross music grind. I really don't think you can go wrong with a KOP naginata togi in a broader width. And those pens are still relatively available.

#12 tabata

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Posted 06 July 2016 - 20:07

Wijko, you're right, I did not say I was looking for a KOP pen (my mistake). And, again, you're right: that premise narrows the possibilities a lot. Thank you for making that point clear.

 

Based on Willis' comments and your insight, I'm now considering a "more regular" nib. Maybe I should just go for a B KOP nib and leave more complex ones for the future. I'll sleep on it.

 

Thank you all for the comments. I now have the feeling I can make an informed choice   :)



#13 Algester

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Posted 07 July 2016 - 05:25

Wijko, you're right, I did not say I was looking for a KOP pen (my mistake). And, again, you're right: that premise narrows the possibilities a lot. Thank you for making that point clear.
 
Based on Willis' comments and your insight, I'm now considering a "more regular" nib. Maybe I should just go for a B KOP nib and leave more complex ones for the future. I'll sleep on it.
 
Thank you all for the comments. I now have the feeling I can make an informed choice   :)

sleep on it first because the KoP Nagahara nibs (not the ordinary Naginata-Togi kind) are order basis only and arent cheap... if you do decide to pay for one your in it for a 4-6 months waiting period





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