Cursive...slip Slidin' Away

[estie1948]

I bet the adults of the 1950s thought the kids were dumbing down vs how it was in the 1920s, as did the 1980s vs 1950s, 2010s vs 1980s.

 

In the meantime, it's possible that intelligence is increasing. Or at least it's not significantly decreasing, like what some people here seem to be saying.

I think I am misunderstanding this post or someone is misreading all the other posts! No one said the "kids were dumbing down" anything. To the very best of my knowledge, there is nowhere that kids set the curriculum. If there were any dumbing down going on, and I believe there is, it is being done by the adults - not the kids.

 

"its possible that intelligence is increasing. Or, at least it is not significantly decreasing, like what some people here seem to be saying." The only one to suggest that young people today might be less intelligent is you.

 

Young people today (aged one month to twenty-one or whatever is considered young - everyone is young compared to me) are every bit as bright, if not more so, than anytime of which I am aware. I hold two university degrees and I am constantly meeting with young people who are enormously brighter and more capable than I. For school systems to drop classes and subjects so they system can spend more class time coaching the students for tests drawn up by people less capable than the students taking the tests is, in my opinion, just wrong and maybe even a crime. But, the school superintendent tells me, if our test scores are not at such-and-such level, we will lose a large part of both our state and federal funding.

 

 

 

By the time they reach your age (however old you are), currently young people of your apparent intelligence will inevitably know far more than you and most likely be capable of superior decision-making, possibly aided by computing tools. If we are really fortunate, they may not even be too quick to judge.

That is a wonderful dream. I hope and pray that this dream comes true. However, how is it to come about when the young people are denied the foundation subjects they need to know more and be capable of superior decision-making? It has nothing to do with the ability of the young people.

 

Now cursive handwriting may not be the most important part of the curriculum being dropped, but it is the canary in the coal mine. It is not the kids or their abilities that are at fault. It is the school administrators, the school boards, the parents who will not fight for their children's right to a quality education, and, it is the old fools like me who thought, "I no longer have children in school so I don't need to be involved."

 

 

To Empty_Of_Clouds, I am very sorry you had to take so much heat by yourself. I agree with other posters: "Don't be so hard on yourself." Your postings were misread or misunderstood.

 

To everyone who reads this topic: I am an opinionated old man and I tend to stand up for my opinions. I realize that does not make me right*. I realize that my opinions carry no more weight than anyone else's. I do not mean to give offence to anyone and if, in the ten pages of this topic, I have given offence, I do humbly apologize.

 

(*Of course I can be wrong. I have been wrong before. There was that time in 1955 and twice in 1958 . . .)

 

-David (Estie).

Edited August 5, 2016 by estie1948

[praxim]

I think a fair reading of the various posts would not indicate a lot of heat here, whereas a little directness is no bad thing. My principal argument has been that we are taking selective samples or presumed situations as a basis for making a critique. What is the verifiable evidence?

By the time they reach your age (however old you are), currently young people of your apparent intelligence will inevitably know far more than you and most likely be capable of superior decision-making, possibly aided by computing tools. If we are really fortunate, they may not even be too quick to judge.

That is a wonderful dream. I hope and pray that this dream comes true. However, how is it to come about when the young people are denied the foundation subjects they need to know more and be capable of superior decision-making? It has nothing to do with the ability of the young people.

 

Who says that they are denied foundation subjects? Is cursive handwriting a foundation subject, or just a useful skill?

I agree though, about the problems inherent in teaching to a test or to a highly selective criterion. I was perhaps fortunate to arrive at university after they started on "continuous" or smoothed assessment. Our children were still more fortunate in that smoothed assessment had extended to secondary school by their time, in lieu of our king-hit exams.

Still, if selective samples are to be considered sufficient for a discussion of critical thinking then my dream about decision making skills is already fulfilled, not only in our children but in their peers we meet, and they are well in to their careers.

[milkb0at]

My apologies for misconstruing children dumbing down vs children being badly educated, especially to EoC.

[Cryptos]

No harm, no foul. My use of a smiley (oh, the irony, I know! ) was just to let you know I didn't take it too seriously. On the other hand, it was probably a good time to get some clarification of the various points in this thread. It's an interesting topic.

[estie1948]

I think a fair reading of the various posts would not indicate a lot of heat here, whereas a little directness is no bad thing. My principal argument has been that we are taking selective samples or presumed situations as a basis for making a critique. What is the verifiable evidence?

 

 

Who says that they are denied foundation subjects? Is cursive handwriting a foundation subject, or just a useful skill?

 

I agree though, about the problems inherent in teaching to a test or to a highly selective criterion. I was perhaps fortunate to arrive at university after they started on "continuous" or smoothed assessment. Our children were still more fortunate in that smoothed assessment had extended to secondary school by their time, in lieu of our king-hit exams.

 

Still, if selective samples are to be considered sufficient for a discussion of critical thinking then my dream about decision making skills is already fulfilled, not only in our children but in their peers we meet, and they are well in to their careers.

Valid points. Let me specific about the school system in my city (with a student population greater than many cities). 8th or 9th grade English (in part of the middle schools and high schools it is 8th grade and in the rest it is 9th) has been changed to a reading class. Prior to two years ago, they were intensive study of English grammar. The basic chemistry class has been eliminated. The basic physics class has been eliminated. There is now only one biology class offered in high school as opposed to biology, botany, and basic zoology a few years ago. There is now a single physical science class offered that covers a bit of chemistry, a bit of physics, a bit of geology, and a bit of ecology. The math classes offered in the high schools are algebra 1, geometry, and business math.

 

In the elementary schools, teaching the multiplication tables and division have been dropped. They do spend a few weeks working out of a workbook provided by the testing company in third grade on these subjects. My great-grand-daughter told me when I offered to teach her the multiplication tables, "I don't need to, Poppy. I already passed the test."

 

I think I mentioned in an earlier text that there are more adjunct teachers teaching remedial English, math, and sciences classes than there are professors in each of those departments at a nearby university (You will see its name every Saturday when the football scores are broadcast). The students pay the going university hour rates for these classes, but do not receive any credit for them. There is a junior college and a university in my city. They have the same set up. The adjunct professors at our local university are the teachers who were teaching these subjects in our local high schools.

 

When I first learned all of this, I did not believe it. I thought someone was making the situation sound worse than it was in an effort to get increased funding. My children, like yours, and my grandchildren went through earlier and turned out well educated. My great-grandchildren going through the system now will not be so lucky. Believe it or not, what got me checking into the school system was when I learned they no longer taught cursive writing.

 

-David (Estie).

[AndyYNWA]

Dropping cursive is just a wee in the Mississippi compared to all the other issues you point out...

[estie1948]

Dropping cursive is just a wee in the Mississippi compared to all the other issues you point out...

Amen, brother, amen. Cursive handwriting was the first thing that was dropped. It should have been seen for what it was: the shape of things to come. I remember reading about it in the one of the local newspapers. I thought that it was a shame, but the administration explained that cursive was not used so much in the adult world any more, more and more work was done on some form of computer, et cetera, et cetera. When there was no fuss raised against the decision, the school board and administration moved on to dropping other things. Each time they explained why it was no longer necessary to teach what was being dropped. When a few (too few) of the dropped items attracted attention, the school administration changed its tactic. They went into how dropping these "no longer really needed items" would allow more time for preparing for testing which would allow the school system to score higher and retain state and federal money which would mean not having to raise money locally. In effect, these actions produced a tax break. Who wouldn't want a tax break or to avoid raising taxes?

 

I don't mean to say that every school system that is dropping or has dropped cursive is going to wind up like our school system. However, be aware of what is going on in your school system.

 

-David (Estie).

[AndyYNWA]

I'm keeping a close eye on the Swedish school system (my wife is a teacher and my daughter will start 2nd grade in a couple of weeks).

Luckily the schools in Sweden don't get money with regards to the national tests, but with regards to how many pupils go to that very school. However, the Swedish school system has its problems, the scores in the PISA tests a constantly dropping, mostly due to poor skills in maths.

[Dickkooty2]

Another cursive example problem:

 

[/url]">http://http://s271.photobucket.com/user/dick168/media/tmloo160825_zps7qoevxwa.gif.html'>http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj157/dick168/tmloo160825_zps7qoevxwa.gif

[BillH]

Doctor handwriting... wow. My wife just had surgery a couple weeks back and the 'scrips were of the "can't fax them in" variety so I hand carried the "handwritten" prescriptions to the druggist. For the life of me I could not read that man's handwriting! I made sure to check what the bottle labels said compared to what the computer printed out at the hospital. I thought mine was poor.

 

But to cut the doc a bit of slack, I find that often times I fall into this half cursive/half printed kind of writing that, while legible, misses "nice handwriting" by more than a yard or two. Now that I'm using great pens more often I'll need to pay more attention to squashing that bad habit.

[pajaro]

It hardly matters. People will communicate somehow.

[estie1948]

Here in this part of the world, another school year has started. I've just come in off a long time on the road. I picked up my great-grand-daughter from school one day this week and was introduced to her fourth grade teacher. The teacher asked if I was the one teaching her cursive handwriting. I admitted my guilt. Then, to my surprise, she asked if I would like to use her classroom for forty-five minutes, three afternoons a week to teach cursive handwriting to some of her other students who had their parent's permission to stay after school for this purpose. So, Monday, Tuesday, and Thursday, the teacher and I teach cursive writing to volunteer students. The first Monday, there were ten students from my great-grand-daughter's class. By Thursday, there were sixteen students - some from other classes. The kids want to learn cursive!

 

Note: The school's principal has warned the teacher that if the superintendent and school board learn of these activities, they will probably put a stop to the classes.

 

-David (Estie).

[BillH]

That's fantastic David! I needed a story like that this morning. Too bad about the culture police school board... get 'em while you can.

 

Hey! Teacher! Leave them kids alone!

[tinta]

Here in this part of the world, another school year has started. I've just come in off a long time on the road. I picked up my great-grand-daughter from school one day this week and was introduced to her fourth grade teacher. The teacher asked if I was the one teaching her cursive handwriting. I admitted my guilt. Then, to my surprise, she asked if I would like to use her classroom for forty-five minutes, three afternoons a week to teach cursive handwriting to some of her other students who had their parent's permission to stay after school for this purpose. So, Monday, Tuesday, and Thursday, the teacher and I teach cursive writing to volunteer students. The first Monday, there were ten students from my great-grand-daughter's class. By Thursday, there were sixteen students - some from other classes. The kids want to learn cursive!

 

Note: The school's principal has warned the teacher that if the superintendent and school board learn of these activities, they will probably put a stop to the classes.

 

-David (Estie).

That's super David. As a retired junior (4/5/6) teacher I applaud the teacher's & your efforts in giving the children this experience.

As for the for the principal & the superintendent I have only one message. Leave well enough alone!

If this is a parent sanctioned, after school activity then what's the problem?

[inkstainedruth]

That's super David. As a retired junior (4/5/6) teacher I applaud the teacher's & your efforts in giving the children this experience.

As for the for the principal & the superintendent I have only one message. Leave well enough alone!

If this is a parent sanctioned, after school activity then what's the problem?

 

It may be that the district doesn't *want* to teach cursive (for whatever reason).

Or, unfortunately, the way things are these days, they're worried about pedophiles (and lawsuits). One of the school districts around here had incidents with three *different* teachers last year for inappropriate relations with students (I think they were all at the high school level). And a fourth one is being charged with obstruction.

It's a sad state of affairs, but increasingly common. Back when I was in middle school, a girl I knew told people that one of the male teachers felt her up and NONE of us believed her -- we thought she was a crank. Nowadays, they'd be calling the cops even if a kid made the thing up just to be malicious.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[tinta]

 

It may be that the district doesn't *want* to teach cursive (for whatever reason).

Or, unfortunately, the way things are these days, they're worried about pedophiles (and lawsuits). One of the school districts around here had incidents with three *different* teachers last year for inappropriate relations with students (I think they were all at the high school level). And a fourth one is being charged with obstruction.

It's a sad state of affairs, but increasingly common. Back when I was in middle school, a girl I knew told people that one of the male teachers felt her up and NONE of us believed her -- we thought she was a crank. Nowadays, they'd be calling the cops even if a kid made the thing up just to be malicious.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

I know what you mean.

In the province of Ontario, if you want to be a volunteer (particularly if you want to work with young children) you now must go through a police check.

When I started teaching in the late 60s, I couldn't have run an effective programme without my parent & paid volunteers. With classes of 30 to 35 (had 42 once for a three months) children on average to a class, with many who were recent immigrants or refugees, volunteers were invaluable.