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Differences Between Safari And Vista With Fine Nib


SouthernLawyer

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All,

 

So I thought I would create an account to ask this question that has been making me wonder for days.

 

I have two Lamy's, a Charcoal Safari and a Vista. I started with the Charcoal Safari purchased from Amazon. Used the included blue cartridge for a while and decided that I wanted two pens (one blue and one black ink). I found the Vista at a local pen shop and right away I noticed that they write very differently. The Vista is significantly smoother and thinner than the Safari (I've included pictures below). So I got two converters and loaded them up with the same ink (Private Reserve American Blue) and did a test. I found that the Safari is still slightly thicker than the Vista.

 

My questions are these: Is the Safari defective or is that just how it is? Should there be a difference between the normal steel nib in the Vista and the black nib in the Safari when they are the same size? Should I just order a normal steel nib for the Safari and ditch the whole "blackout" effect?

 

 

Note: from what I can tell based off videos and other reviews on FPN, the Charcoal Safari is not a fake.

 

For pictures, I took one without flash, one close up, and one with flash.

post-130427-0-87217700-1465533094_thumb.jpg

post-130427-0-35293100-1465533106_thumb.jpg

post-130427-0-98325300-1465533117_thumb.jpg

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If you look through the Lamy forum you will notice a lot of discussion about variance within nibs- even when they are both the same size.

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Keep in mind, with the exception of the EF, most of the other steel nibs are entirely machine made, with almost nobody checking them individually until the final QC step. At least that is my understanding of how Lamy produces them. Thus, as with anything else, there will be variance in smoothness and alignment and even size. Some personal smoothing and alignment check may be necessary in your case.

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Hi, You could quickly prove if it is the nibs that are the difference, by swapping them over between pens.

To remove a nib, just use fingernails to pull the nibs straight forward off of the feeds.

( This is because any tools will scratch the plastic feed, causing another problem ! )

Alternatively, stick some cellophane tape to the top of the nib, and pull the nib forward.

The tape method works well as long as the nib is dry.

The variaton in nib width and smoothness is a result of working with fine tolerances, and mass production.

I've found that these nibs need a few weeks of use before you will get a better idea of how they can write.

 

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If you look through the Lamy forum you will notice a lot of discussion about variance within nibs- even when they are both the same size.

 

 

Yes, I started one myself a couple of years ago when I noticed the huge difference between the EF nibs on my Safari and my AlStar. Basically, there's some manufacturing tolerance that leaves each nib slightly different in character - and then there's the occasional nib that slips through even though it seems very different from others of the same size. You can see in this post

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/264001-how-to-buy-a-true-ef-nib-for-an-al-star/?p=2964300

writing samples from four different EF Lamy nibs. Three of them are very close to each other, though all with slight diffferences; the fourth is not. I do prefer nibs to be close enough to spec that they're not hard for me to write with, but I like the slight differences in nibs that give an individual character to each pen.

 

Jenny

"To read without also writing is to sleep." - St. Jerome

 

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This is not Lamy specific.

 

There are a lot of variables about the way a nib writes.

Ink, paper- These can be easily eliminated by using the same in comparison.

But also the feed, and the way the nib hugs the feed. No 2 feeds are entirely identical. And there could be dirt inside the feed hampering flow.

 

And then the nibs themselves.

It is impossible to make two identical nibs, by machine or by hand.

You could come close, but that would demand very high precision machinery which would make the nibs prohibitively expensive.

 

If you take 1000 nibs you will see their width will be on a spectrum. the nibs smaller than say 0.35 mm are called XF from 0.35 to 0.5 F, from 0.5 to 0.7 M, from 0.7 to 0.9 B etc (NOT actual measure for Lamy, just an example) For another brand these scores would be slightly different.

 

But a nib of 0.349 would be called XF and a nib of 0.351 an F. And in use they would be identical.

 

Then another factor is the width of the slit between the tines. This is often used to adapt flow. So after tinkering a bit the same nib would write differently as this would influence capillary function

 

Then there is the question if the tines are perfectly aligned, or there is a slight step between the two. That step would make the writing rough in one direction because the step would snag in the paper.

 

And there is something called babybottom. Usually the ends of the tines that touch the paper are a little bit rounded so there are no sharp bits snagging the paper. But if the rounding is too much there will be a gap in the middle right where the ink would contact the paper. This would hamper capillary function in the slit again.

 

 

So all these factors play on what is otherwise an identical pen.

 

 

D.ick

~

KEEP SAFE, WEAR A MASK, KEEP A DISTANCE.

Freedom exists by virtue of self limitation.

~

 

 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi, You could quickly prove if it is the nibs that are the difference, by swapping them over between pens.

To remove a nib, just use fingernails to pull the nibs straight forward off of the feeds.

( This is because any tools will scratch the plastic feed, causing another problem ! )

Alternatively, stick some cellophane tape to the top of the nib, and pull the nib forward.

The tape method works well as long as the nib is dry.

The variaton in nib width and smoothness is a result of working with fine tolerances, and mass production.

I've found that these nibs need a few weeks of use before you will get a better idea of how they can write.

 

good idea B)

with kindness...

 

Amadeus W.
Ingeneer2

visit Fountain Pen Design

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Yes, I started one myself a couple of years ago when I noticed the huge difference between the EF nibs on my Safari and my AlStar. Basically, there's some manufacturing tolerance that leaves each nib slightly different in character - and then there's the occasional nib that slips through even though it seems very different from others of the same size. You can see in this post

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/264001-how-to-buy-a-true-ef-nib-for-an-al-star/?p=2964300

writing samples from four different EF Lamy nibs. Three of them are very close to each other, though all with slight diffferences; the fourth is not. I do prefer nibs to be close enough to spec that they're not hard for me to write with, but I like the slight differences in nibs that give an individual character to each pen.

 

Jenny

EF is a problem for any nib. The tolerances causing the variations are within the range of microns. Miss alignment of the tines or a slight difference in their setting. I give some details on this on my blog... if you want to have a look, here is the link:

 

https://fountainpendesign.wordpress.com/

with kindness...

 

Amadeus W.
Ingeneer2

visit Fountain Pen Design

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This is not Lamy specific.

 

There are a lot of variables about the way a nib writes.

Ink, paper- These can be easily eliminated by using the same in comparison.

But also the feed, and the way the nib hugs the feed. No 2 feeds are entirely identical. And there could be dirt inside the feed hampering flow.

 

And then the nibs themselves.

It is impossible to make two identical nibs, by machine or by hand.

You could come close, but that would demand very high precision machinery which would make the nibs prohibitively expensive.

 

If you take 1000 nibs you will see their width will be on a spectrum. the nibs smaller than say 0.35 mm are called XF from 0.35 to 0.5 F, from 0.5 to 0.7 M, from 0.7 to 0.9 B etc (NOT actual measure for Lamy, just an example) For another brand these scores would be slightly different.

 

But a nib of 0.349 would be called XF and a nib of 0.351 an F. And in use they would be identical.

 

Then another factor is the width of the slit between the tines. This is often used to adapt flow. So after tinkering a bit the same nib would write differently as this would influence capillary function

 

Then there is the question if the tines are perfectly aligned, or there is a slight step between the two. That step would make the writing rough in one direction because the step would snag in the paper.

 

And there is something called babybottom. Usually the ends of the tines that touch the paper are a little bit rounded so there are no sharp bits snagging the paper. But if the rounding is too much there will be a gap in the middle right where the ink would contact the paper. This would hamper capillary function in the slit again.

 

 

So all these factors play on what is otherwise an identical pen.

 

 

D.ick

could not agree more! What you say is absolutely correct!

with kindness...

 

Amadeus W.
Ingeneer2

visit Fountain Pen Design

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As RMN pointed out, it is amazing how much an extremely tiny nib alignment variance can affect the feel and performance of a nib. This is why the skill of tuning nibs is not easy to develop -- it takes time to amass a lot of "nib wisdom" in not only how they are designed and function, but in how they can vary in manufacturing. This is why some small pen shops will give you that added service of a nib tuning with your purchase to ensure the pen writes properly out of the box.

 

As you may have already surmised, the Safari/Vista thing is simply body material (the Vista is a clear/demonstrator Safari) and they use the exact same feed and nib.

[MYU's Pen Review Corner] | "The Common Ground" -- Jeffrey Small

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As RMN pointed out, it is amazing how much an extremely tiny nib alignment variance can affect the feel and performance of a nib. This is why the skill of tuning nibs is not easy to develop -- it takes time to amass a lot of "nib wisdom" in not only how they are designed and function, but in how they can vary in manufacturing. This is why some small pen shops will give you that added service of a nib tuning with your purchase to ensure the pen writes properly out of the box.

 

As you may have already surmised, the Safari/Vista thing is simply body material (the Vista is a clear/demonstrator Safari) and they use the exact same feed and nib.

in total in utter agreement with your comment!

 

All of them!

with kindness...

 

Amadeus W.
Ingeneer2

visit Fountain Pen Design

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All,

 

So I thought I would create an account to ask this question that has been making me wonder for days.

 

I have two Lamy's, a Charcoal Safari and a Vista. I started with the Charcoal Safari purchased from Amazon. Used the included blue cartridge for a while and decided that I wanted two pens (one blue and one black ink). I found the Vista at a local pen shop and right away I noticed that they write very differently. The Vista is significantly smoother and thinner than the Safari (I've included pictures below). So I got two converters and loaded them up with the same ink (Private Reserve American Blue) and did a test. I found that the Safari is still slightly thicker than the Vista.

 

My questions are these: Is the Safari defective or is that just how it is? Should there be a difference between the normal steel nib in the Vista and the black nib in the Safari when they are the same size? Should I just order a normal steel nib for the Safari and ditch the whole "blackout" effect?

 

 

Note: from what I can tell based off videos and other reviews on FPN, the Charcoal Safari is not a fake.

 

For pictures, I took one without flash, one close up, and one with flash.

Oddly enough i am experiencing the same issue with two Lamy Al-star pens. One is plum with a med nib and the other is a special edition all black in a fine. The new plum with medium nib writes like a fine and the special edition in black with fine nib writes more like a medium. What gives.

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INK FLOW.

 

I have measured the few Lamy nibs that I have and the F nibs are consistent within a range of 0.028 to 0.030 inch.

The XF is at 0.025 inch

The F is from 0.028 to 0.030 inch

The M is at 0.031 inch

The B is at 0.049 inch

 

So there is generally consistency of difference between nib sizes, with 1 exception, and consistency within the F nib sizes.

However, you can see that my M nib at 0.031 inch is virtually the same as my F nib at 0.030 inch. The narrow M being essentially the same as a wide F. This is exactly what RMN said.

 

The difference from my observation has been due to ink flow.

- If the ink flow is DRY, you get a narrow ink line, that could look like a nib 1 size narrower.

- If the ink flow is WET, you get a wide ink line, that could look like a nib 1 size wider.

 

The variable that you have is the nib/feed and how wet or dry that combination is, given the same ink and paper.

Edited by ac12

San Francisco Pen Show - August 28-30, 2020 - Redwood City, California

www.SFPenShow.com

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INK FLOW.

 

I have measured the few Lamy nibs that I have and the F nibs are consistent within a range of 0.028 to 0.030 inch.

The XF is at 0.025 inch

The F is from 0.028 to 0.030 inch

The M is at 0.031 inch

The B is at 0.049 inch

 

So there is generally consistency of difference between nib sizes, with 1 exception, and consistency within the F nib sizes.

However, you can see that my M nib at 0.031 inch is virtually the same as my F nib at 0.030 inch. The narrow M being essentially the same as a wide F. This is exactly what RMN said.

 

The difference from my observation has been due to ink flow.

- If the ink flow is DRY, you get a narrow ink line, that could look like a nib 1 size narrower.

- If the ink flow is WET, you get a wide ink line, that could look like a nib 1 size wider.

 

The variable that you have is the nib/feed and how wet or dry that combination is, given the same ink and paper.

agree... there is technology and physics behind all this... not only magic!

with kindness...

 

Amadeus W.
Ingeneer2

visit Fountain Pen Design

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