A Rant About Quality

[Ecriveur]

I don't have any vintage pens so I don't know whether that cost-of-ownership experience with them is typical. If all you want is a good writing experience though, you can always go with a few inexpensive, entry-level pens, like a Lamy Safari, Pilot Metropolitan or Faber Castel Loom that will write well and have a maintenance cost of zero for many years. Writing with the fountain pens one has is just as much a hobby as acquiring new fountain pens.

[jar]

You are still not giving us enough information.

 

Did the Parker Vacs get repaired by someone who actually knows how to repair them?

 

Show us the cracks in the Sheaffer and someone here might be able top advise you what might have happened. But the pen has not been under warranty for about twenty years or more.

 

The crack in the Parker converter is a triviality. Just replace it.

 

But I still don't see how any of this is related to quality unless you are talking about the quality of the repair work on the Vacs. My advice there is don't use that repair person.

[bobje]

Please be thoughtful about using words like "troll" and "attack." Regular discussion about the definition of quality, reliability, and consistency in products over a period of decades is one of the great assets of the Fountain Pen Network. It isn't often that we can see respectful disagreement in the discussion of an issue. But thoughtful people discussing experiences and viewpoints about fountain pens is one society, one civil club, where this can happen.

[camd]

Sorry, but I am a little confused.

 

The pens were bought NEW?

 

It took you 21 years to notice the defect in the Sheaffer?

 

It took 10 years to notice a cracked converter in the Parker?

 

It took 4 years for you to notice the bad nib on the Lamy?

 

Am I just reading the post wrong or have you been having issues for 21 years on one pen, 10 on another and 4 on the last?

 

David

 

Yes, the pens were purchased new.

 

The Sheaffer was purchased in 1995, and I had the nib replaced on warranty twice before putting it in a drawer for a couple decades. It's only been in use again for a few years.

 

The Parker was NOS, and I bought it a couple years ago. The crack developed within the last couple of months.

 

The Lamy never wrote properly, so I only used it irregularly. I should have sent it in for warranty immediately, but somehow never got around to it, which I obviously regret now.

 

In any case, all pens have only been in use for at most 4 years, including the vintage ones, which I purchased restored.

[camd]

I would recommend that you steer clear of vintage and out of production pens if longevity and warranty support are major concerns, for you. Listing sac replacements for pens over sixty years old as a concern is not really reasonable. When you buy a pen that old, you must accept the risks.

 

With the 90s Sheaffer, again, you are asking for a lot. If my 1990's Spyderco Endura gets a crack in the FRN handle, I will have to buy a new one, and I know that. The model is no longer made. The same applies to pens.

 

I agree that you should expect warranty support for your Lamy and Parker, but only if you bought them new and are the only owner. Is that the case? if so, what was their reason for not helping you?

 

I am sorry that you have had some bad luck, but much of that has to do with your choices in what to buy.

 

That's a fair comment on vintage pens. I own a vintage motorcycle, and I don't hold it to the same maintenance standards as a new one, so I get that. In the case of the vintage pens, however, I purchased them restored so they would be like new, and was under the understanding that "they don't build them like they used to" applied. Perhaps not.

 

The Sheaffer has only been in use with the current (cracked) nib for four years. It's possible that time took a toll while it was in storage, but it seems unlikely.

 

Warranties are based on time. Once over the time limit, they're not covered. My pens were declined for warranty coverage because I didn't sent them in within one year.

 

It could simply be "bad luck" as you say. However, it's a pretty serious case of bad luck to have the majority of my pens experience failures, I think. Hopefully it is simply bad luck, and the trend is reversed soon.

[TheRealMikeDr]

I have a very small pen collection - 10 pens - with a mix of modern and vintage pens. I have bought and sold a variety of pens over the past few years as I've experimented with finding what I like, but I've only kept ones that I actually use. However, I'm slowly losing my enthusiasm for my short-lived hobby. The cost of maintaining pens is simply getting to be too much hassle and too costly for me.

 

I'm really torn about how to proceed with this hobby. I like writing with fountain pens, but I simply cannot afford the cost of keeping fountain pens in working order anymore. Once I have all my pens returned to me, I'll have to reassess my expectations of this hobby, as they may be misplaced. I would have been a lot better off if I had simply kept all the pens in their cases as objects to be admired, because they simply haven't proven their value as writing instruments. It simply doesn't seem reasonable to me to spend thousands of dollars and have so little to show in return.

 

Interesting perspective. I participate in other discussion boards on the Internet (Cars and Cameras etc) and a common thread, for items that are priced beyond the mean - is does this item return value in line with the price tag. The answer, almost always, is that it depends. Is a $50,000 (USD) Lexus worth the money when compared to a $25,000 Camry. Well, it depends. From a pure value standpoint the answer will always be no. If you view a car as a tool then your best value will be a low end Toyota/Honda/Kia/Etc etc. If we look at a fountain pen purely as a writing instrument tool then your best value will always be a Pilot Metropolitan for $15, or a Lamy Safari for $20 etc. When I pay several hundred dollars for a pen (think about that for a minute - crazy!!) I'm not buying on value, I'm buying on emotion. I'm paying for the experience that I will receive from using that pen. I'm not buying a tool so much as the whole experience I'll get from that pen. Same thing with a Lexus (I don't own a Lexus by the way!) vs a Toyota. But tools, when used, will often require maintenance or repair. Regardless of the original price of the tool. Be it a pen or a power drill or a car. You can read horror stories of repair bills from BMW owners over the years! That's just the cost of doing business. Same thing with older pens or high end pens. Some get lucky and others - not so much.

 

I understand that you're weighing the benefits vs the cost - and rightly so. This "hobby" is certainly frivolous at best in my opinion. But - if you really do gain a lot of enjoyment from it then perhaps you can still continue on but maybe change the pens you use as well as your perspective of them.

[camd]

1. ​1995 Sheaffer Triumph Imperial 2444 - cracked nib unit. I contacted the Canadian Sheaffer distributor - it is not covered by warranty. I have ordered a new nib unit from a used pen seller.
2. 2012 Lamy 2000 - I've sent it for repair (to an independent shop) and was told the nib was bad (it may be possible to adjust to be tolerable). The Canadian Lamy distributor says it is not covered by warranty.
3. ​2006 Parker Duofold Centennial International - The converter cracked. I purchased a replacement converter, but it seems that link is still leaking from the section somewhere - I need more time to test it.
4. 1943 Vacumatic - second sac replacement in 4 years.
5. 1944 Vacumatic - second sac replacement in 4 years.

 

 

I've received lots of specific questions about my pens in this thread. My "rant" wasn't intended to be about the specific problems as much as it was a general complaint about the poor quality of manufacturing I've seen in my fountain pen collection over the years. However, I can apply this frustration more specifically if that's what people want.

 

1. Sheaffer 2444 - The cracked nib unit may not be unusual, as I've had at least one other FPN member say they've seen this happen before. To have this as a common problem speaks to the lack of quality in producing these units, not in a problem with how I use the pen. In my case, the pen has only been in regular use for a few years. The pen is out of warranty.

 

2. Lamy 2000 - From FPN reviews, I have learned that Lamy 2000s often come with bad nibs. This is a manufacturer problem, and not the result of damage I have caused. The pen has been inspected by an independent repair shop to confirm this. The pen is out of warranty.

 

3. Parker Duofold - The cause of the cracked converter and the leaking section is unknown to me, but I've seen at least a couple posts from people experiencing the same problem with the leak, and the need for repairs. Again, if this is a common problem from the factory, it's a quality issue, not a use issue. The pen is out of warranty.

 

4. and 5. Vacumatics - These are old pens. I get it. But I purchased them restored so they would be "like new". However, there are other variables here that may factor in, such as the quality of the parts and the skill/knowledge of the restorer. I thought I had made wise choices, but perhaps not. In any case, a four year life-span for a sac seems pretty short to me, as my understanding is that they should last a couple decades at least. The pens are out of warranty.

 

I understand the instinctive defensiveness of people on FPN, but I do think there are quality issues with the products listed above. I do have other pens that I haven't had any problems with (yet), but I hear rumours of ominous things to come (such as with my TWSBI, which should fail anytime, according to some folks).

 

It's possible I'm having a run of bad luck. But it's also possible that fountain pen manufacturers are making poor quality products and as hobbyists, we're too willing to let them go because we like fiddling, or assume that repairs are part of the fun. While some adjustment is reasonable, the time and treasure I have invested in repairs have far outstripped the line in the sand of what I consider "reasonable".

 

I plan to keep pursuing this hobby, but may be limited to repairing and maintaining my current fleet for a while, since the cost of upkeep is testing my financial limitations for this hobby. I do enjoy using them all, when they work.

 

On an slightly different note, one of the things that has made this hobby interesting is learning about pens, and FPN is one place I try to do that. There are a lot of great people who share insight, advice and information so willingly. Thank you all to those who have expressed support and offered advice. It's much appreciated for someone new to the hobby.

[camd]

 

Interesting perspective. I participate in other discussion boards on the Internet (Cars and Cameras etc) and a common thread, for items that are priced beyond the mean - is does this item return value in line with the price tag. The answer, almost always, is that it depends. Is a $50,000 (USD) Lexus worth the money when compared to a $25,000 Camry. Well, it depends. From a pure value standpoint the answer will always be no. If you view a car as a tool then your best value will be a low end Toyota/Honda/Kia/Etc etc. If we look at a fountain pen purely as a writing instrument tool then your best value will always be a Pilot Metropolitan for $15, or a Lamy Safari for $20 etc. When I pay several hundred dollars for a pen (think about that for a minute - crazy!!) I'm not buying on value, I'm buying on emotion. I'm paying for the experience that I will receive from using that pen. I'm not buying a tool so much as the whole experience I'll get from that pen. Same thing with a Lexus (I don't own a Lexus by the way!) vs a Toyota. But tools, when used, will often require maintenance or repair. Regardless of the original price of the tool. Be it a pen or a power drill or a car. You can read horror stories of repair bills from BMW owners over the years! That's just the cost of doing business. Same thing with older pens or high end pens. Some get lucky and others - not so much.

 

I understand that you're weighing the benefits vs the cost - and rightly so. This "hobby" is certainly frivolous at best in my opinion. But - if you really do gain a lot of enjoyment from it then perhaps you can still continue on but maybe change the pens you use as well as your perspective of them.

 

Yes, those are excellent observations, and I agree! I certainly don't use fountain pens for value, just as I don't ride a vintage motorcycle for value. I couldn't agree more. That's why I've been willing to invest in expensive pens that I like for a variety of non-functional reasons (aesthetics, history, uniqueness, etc), instead of buying Safaris or Metropolitans.

 

However, my concern in this thread is about quality. I don't know if a Lexus and a Toyota have the same quality or not, but I should hope that the Lexus is more reliable and built of higher quality materials and with a higher level of attention to quality control and detail. I'd be pretty upset if my $50,000 Lexus or my $25,000 Camry didn't perform as intended, but I'd certainly be far more upset about the Lexus, as I would hold it to a higher standard. In my experience, several of my expensive pens seem to simply be more expensive - not better.

[flipper_gv]

 

All good questions.

 

Vacumatic sacs: Are they really only expected to last a few years? I'm a bit surprised by that. My pens are over 70 years old - is it really possible that the sacs have been replaced 18 times? I'll have to do some more research on that, but if that's the case, then the pens really are just museum pieces, and not really practical writing instruments. I guess I had assumed that they were more reliable than that.

 

Ink: I mostly use Noodler's ink, but I also have Diamine and Mont Blanc.

 

Storage: All my pens are in rotation and are not "stored". I keep them all in a Franklin-Christoph Penvelope on my desk.

 

Cracked nib: The Sheaffer nib unit (one of the integrated nib types) cracked in a U-shape from the threads down about 10mm and across 10mm. I have no idea how this developed. The pen was not mishandled in any way. It gets regular use (about one day a week). I've heard from someone else on FPN that this happens with these nibs.

 

Cracked converter: An even bigger mystery. I have rarely removed the converter from the pen, and yet a crack developed at the end where the feed enters the converter, allowing ink to run out. I can't even imagine what caused the failure, except a manufacturers defect.

 

Nib: The Lamy 2000 is currently at a repair shop, which is how I know that it is bad. I have been advised that it can be improved somewhat, but not repaired.

 

Fiddling: I accept a certain amount of fiddling with such primitive technologies, but I do expect my pens to perform as advertised, as I do with all products I purchase. What is particularly galling is that my very expensive pens are not performing as well as $1 pens - as in, they don't work at all. The costly repairs required are more than fiddling.

 

 

Noodler's ink kills rubber sacks. Just don't use Noodler's ink in vintage pens, ever (just in case). Private Reserve is a no-no AFAIK in vintage pens too. Other brands should be fine.

[sail1942]

Expensive or not, the bottom line is that all pens have plastic pieces that can break. If you find your current ones too expensive, I would look into brands such as Cross as already mentioned. TWSBI is another good option. They're inexpensive as far as pens go and are all great workhorses. Many like to talk up the horror stories, but TWSBI stands behind them by sending parts at their expensive should anything ever arise.

TWSBI will guarantee their pens as long as you own them. Good customer service also.

[TheRealMikeDr]

 

In my experience, several of my expensive pens seem to simply be more expensive - not better.

 

Sadly - I think that's the case. Which is why value is subjective. Is a $700 Montblanc better than a $75 Pilot? Well, maybe a little, but in the end you're paying $700 because you want a Montblanc - not because you want the best pen money can buy.

 

I read a story years ago about a large company who makes laundry detergent. Turns out the same company makes something like 4 different brands - ranging from the high price brand that you see on the TV commercials - to the generic brand you see at the dollar store. The differences in the actual detergent is minimal. Turns out the company knows that some people will buy soap for $15 and others will never pay more than $5 - so they simply repackage the same soap (with minor differences) and get both types of consumers!

[dadbar]

Sorry to hear about your troubles. Been there.

 

Part of the fun of the hobby (at least for me) is learning how to fix these pens yourself. Many of my pens at one time or another have had similar issues. The only sac pen I have left is the Parker 51 and that sac seems indestructable. I have been fitting piston converters on my other pens that use sac based converters (Parker 75 and 45) as well.

 

Maybe there is a fellow member nearby to you who enjoys tinkering who might be willing to help you do some of these things yourself?

[pajaro]

Try a Parker 51. The one I bought new in 1970 is still in use today with never a problem. The many other Parker 51s I have bought used from ebay and garage sales, etc., have had very few problems, and most of them were cosmetic defects remedied by a new barrel, cap or nib.

 

There are quite a few pens that are quite reliable. Not every Montblanc costs $700 as in the ridiculous comparison to a $75 Pilot, none of which are as good as a used MB 144 for about $100.

 

My Pelikan M200s and M400s seem to be near bulletproof.

 

The nib issue with the Lamy 2000 being expensive is well known, but I don't know I have ever heard of your issue.

 

If these pens have issues of initial quality or if there are repair pitfalls, I would eliminate those pens.

 

I have limited my use of my pens to Parker 51s, Montblanc 144s and a few Sheaffers, but not the Sheaffer models you have. The other pens I have I view as junk. Collectible, pretty junk.

[Runnin_Ute]

Sorry to hear of your troubles. I have been fortunate. Replaced a sac on a Esterbrook, on my Al Star after several years of good service I had to replace the section and nib as it cracked. At the time you could get the part from Lamy USA for $25. Converters for Parker pens are $7-10.

[camd]

 

 

Noodler's ink kills rubber sacks. Just don't use Noodler's ink in vintage pens, ever (just in case). Private Reserve is a no-no AFAIK in vintage pens too. Other brands should be fine.

I did not know that. That's good to know. I'll have to pick up some new inks I guess.

[Sailor Kenshin]

Yes, those are excellent observations, and I agree! I certainly don't use fountain pens for value, just as I don't ride a vintage motorcycle for value. I couldn't agree more. That's why I've been willing to invest in expensive pens that I like for a variety of non-functional reasons (aesthetics, history, uniqueness, etc), instead of buying Safaris or Metropolitans.

 

However, my concern in this thread is about quality. I don't know if a Lexus and a Toyota have the same quality or not, but I should hope that the Lexus is more reliable and built of higher quality materials and with a higher level of attention to quality control and detail. I'd be pretty upset if my $50,000 Lexus or my $25,000 Camry didn't perform as intended, but I'd certainly be far more upset about the Lexus, as I would hold it to a higher standard. In my experience, several of my expensive pens seem to simply be more expensive - not better.

 

A Lexus is just a Toyota in a mink coat.

[TSherbs]

 

......

 

On an slightly different note, one of the things that has made this hobby interesting is learning about pens, and FPN is one place I try to do that. There are a lot of great people who share insight, advice and information so willingly. Thank you all to those who have expressed support and offered advice. It's much appreciated for someone new to the hobby.

well put

[TSherbs]

A Lexus is just a Toyota in a mink coat.

faux mink, at that

[s_t_e_v_e]

@camd - I totally understand your frustration. If the pens give you more trouble than it's worth your time and money then it is no good for you. Doesn't matter what others have to say, if it is not working for you then you won't be happy, which is perfectly fine.

 

Vintage pens have a tendency to be a bit more problematic than most modern pens just because of the age of the pen and the materials that were used. From my personal experience with vintage pens, I don't expect a lot from them in terms of being sturdy. Modern pens on the other hand should, for the most part, not give you a lot of grief. I am totally with you on your complaints about the Lamy 2000 and the Parker Duofold. Unless you did something terrible to them, they should just work for years and years with reasonable care and maintenance. You do get a lemon sometimes, more so with the Lamy than the Parker. Just like you, I am not ok if a pen doesn't write or needs frequent repairs.

 

I'd say, don't be too disappointed. This hobby sure can get expensive before you know it. Just because a pen costs $100+ does not mean it will work well. A $2 Jinhao has been way more consistent for me than pens that cost 50 times as much. If you still want that special pen from a top shelf brand, go for a local brand if possible. In the US, Edison Pens and Franklin-Christoph come to mind. I know that Brian Gray from Edison Pens Co. will do what ever it takes to make things right. He stands by his products and does not compromise. Their pens are not the cheapest out there but if you have a problem, it will be taken care of unlike what Lamy told you.

 

I personally pick simple C/C filling systems with widely available Bock, Jowo or Schmidt units. These are by far the easiest to maintain, repair or replace. Just like most things, they may break and need repair over time but after a really, really long time. I have a Parker 45 from the late 90s with a aeromatic which works fine even today, it was used since 1999 and did not need any repair even after fairly regular use. Some of my modern Parkers (Sonnets, Duofolds, Frontiers etc.) and Sheaffers (Legacy 2, agio etc.) are about 10 years old and every one of them still works perfectly.

 

I think you are not at all wrong in expecting at least the modern pens to work well and not need repairs. Vintage ones can be a hit or a miss. Just my 2 cents based on my experiences so far.

[wimg]

 

 

Noodler's ink kills rubber sacks. Just don't use Noodler's ink in vintage pens, ever (just in case). Private Reserve is a no-no AFAIK in vintage pens too. Other brands should be fine.

 

 

I did not know that. That's good to know. I'll have to pick up some new inks I guess.

 

IMO, this is nonsense. I am using one particular vintage pen which was resacced 12 years ago and I ONLY use Noodler's inks in that particular pen.

 

What is a problem with sacs that you should never let the ink dry out in the sac. That hastens the deterioration of quality of the sac. In addition, it is known that about 10 to 15 years ago, a sac manufacturer produced bad sacs, which did not lasted all that long, not as long as was expected. IOW, the sac quality has something to do with it too.

 

HTH, warm regards, Wim