Cmyk Ink Mixing

[Ash1]

Is there a way to use CMYK values that are used on the Web to help us mix the correct amount of ink to get a certain color? One website I have come across is http://trycolors.com

and that link has various colors that list information such as Hex number RGB, CMYK values etc...

[bobje]

Ash1, this is an excellent question, and asking it in the FPN forums is a great place to start. Linda Medley did some excellent research in this area in 2007, and her CMYK research covers both Noodler's and Diamine combinations.

[aeba]

I think Jane Blundell's work on De Atramentis inks pretty much has to be mentioned in a thread like this.

 

Ash1, this is an excellent question, and asking it in the FPN forums is a great place to start. Linda Medley did some excellent research in this area in 2007, and her CMYK research covers both Noodler's and Diamine combinations.

Ooh, Diamine (Page 7)... Now that could be interesting, as even De Atramentis isn't that cheap.

[bobje]

aeba,

Jane Blundell's work is useful -- thank you for sharing it. I had not seen it before, and it uses permanent inks, unlike the work with Noodler's and Diamine.

 

This subject is ink-mixing, so I am going to move this thread to the "Inky Recipes" ink sub-forum.

[amberleadavis]

Good catch, Bob, I was getting ready to move it.

 

Ash, thank you for the link. I started playing with the program, it is very easy to end up with murky colors when you mix.

[El Gordo]

Ash1, this is an excellent question, and asking it in the FPN forums is a great place to start. Linda Medley did some excellent research in this area in 2007, and her CMYK research covers both Noodler's and Diamine combinations.

Is it only on my system, or are the links in the 2007 post dead for all? If so, alternative sources anyone?

[bobje]

Gordo, I had forgotten that those early links no longer work. But if you proceed deeper into the thread, the graphics are embedded and the Diamine work also appears. For example, there are graphics here. https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/40629-noodlers-cmyk-color-mixes/page-2

[Ash1]

Good catch, Bob, I was getting ready to move it.

 

Ash, thank you for the link. I started playing with the program, it is very easy to end up with murky colors when you mix.

Good catch, Bob, I was getting ready to move it.

 

Ash, thank you for the link. I started playing with the program, it is very easy to end up with murky colors when you mix.

I really like the All Colors part of the website since it has a color wheel and you can make the color lighter or darker. It also shows you various information about the color (HEX number, RGB and CMYK values) and what colors and how many drops you need to make it. It uses CMYK and RGB plus white as the basic colors to make all the other colors but I still am not sure how to make the particular color I like and the correct ratios e.g. http://trycolors.com/colors/b6c223/

[Ash1]

On the Trycolors website there is a page that has a color wheel where you go around it and choose a color but also make that color lighter or darker or brighter:

 

http://trycolors.com/palette/

 

If you find a color you like you can get the formula for it. It will take you to a page that has various information about that color or a simile color. This information includes the colors and numbers of drops you need to make the color and also the percentages of the amount of the basic colors that make the specific color. It uses CMYK plus RGB and white as the basic colors. My query is whether we can use that information to help us when mixing inks to get a specific color. I will give an example. Here is a like to a specific color I like:

 

http://trycolors.com/colors/c89d23/

 

Do you know whether if we use the basic colors that make that color and convert the drops to parts will we be able to get that specific color? Or if we use the percentages of colors used to make that color will that work if we use those percentages?

[bobje]

Ash, great question -- either way works. 1 part black to 2 parts red, for example, is the same as 1 drop black and 2 drops red. That's also the same as 33.3 percent black (1 black drop over 3 total drops) and 66.6 percent red (2 red drop over 3 total drops).

[amberleadavis]

Ash, I wonder if Tekker Ink companies could offer some advice on this topic?

[amberleadavis]

Would it help to look at the Platinum Mix Free series to also get some ideas about how the inks could mix well?

 

http://www.platinum-pen.co.jp/mixfree/e_mixfree04.jpg

[Ash1]

Ash, I wonder if Tekker Ink companies could offer some advice on this topic?

 

 

Would it help to look at the Platinum Mix Free series to also get some ideas about how the inks could mix well?

 

http://www.platinum-pen.co.jp/mixfree/e_mixfree04.jpg

 

I have just had a quick look at the Tekker Ink website and they are doing what I want to be able to do (big thanks to amberleadavis for mentioning them as I had never heard of them till now). Do you know if they have a presence on FPN as I would love to talk to them about how they make their colors.

 

Also I have been looking at the Platinum Mix Free Inks and they look like a good candidate to start mixing with. This is because they are made to be mixed and they have the basic colors CMYK and RGB that can make any other color and also have a dilution liquid to lighten the color.

Edited May 2, 2016 by Ash1

[Sandy1]

Hi,

Please Note: For simplicity and common terminology I prefer the Munsell Color System, which uses a gamut based on Hue (colour) Value (light-dark) and Chroma (vibrancy.)

See: Wiki MCS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munsell_color_system and MSC Notation http://munsell.com/about-munsell-color/how-color-notation-works/

__

Those who enter into the realm of CMY+K FP ink blending face several challenges:

> Purity of Hue: FP inks are composed of dyes that are most often not the theoretical ideal CMY+K that is used for pigmented paint, printer inks, etc. In addition, FP inks, particularly Black, are often composed of more than one dye.

(See Post 7 https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/255652-tips-for-a-beginning-mixer/?p=2824580)

> Dye-Load: FP inks vary quite a bit in terms of the [apparent] amount of dye per unit volume; and that is greatly influenced by the pen+paper they dance with. Though I have not done a molecular analysis, it seems the low Value inks may contain dye/s that are of native low Value, or there may be a large amount higher Value dye bits per unit volume. This can skew mixing ratios and influence Value and Chroma. I did a small set of dilution samples with PR DC Supershow Blue, which gives a glimpse into that. https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/239373-dilution-private-reserve-dc-supershow-blue/

> Chroma: Other than Noodler’s Batstate Blue, most FP inks have low Chroma - they do not come in Neon or Day-Glo. I consider that to be one of the aspects where blending commonly fails. One might match the Hue and Value of NBsBl, but forget about getting the retina-searing Chroma. Part of that limitation is because we work with FP compatible water-soluable dyes, which are translucent, rather than opaque pigments, which explains why we are without International Klein Blue and his Anthropometries were best served live.

Wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Klein_Blue

> Complexity / Subtlety: I much admire those aspects in my inks, which goes a long way to explain why I have a fairly broad array. I look for a certain nuance, often in concert with a given pen+paper combo. It seems to me that only certain individual dyes will produce a given effect/perception. (Recall the persistent efforts to replicate Parker Penman Sapphire or MB Racing Green.)

- I remain intrigued by the Pilot iroshizuku inks, as they have a certain ‘something something’ going on that Western inks do not have. I later learned that may well be ‘shibui’, (Wiki: “a particular aesthetic of simple, subtle, and unobtrusive beauty”) It seems to me that they also exploit a non-MCS colour palette, and Pilot might manufacture or have access to dyes unavailable to other ink Co.s to suit their individual/cultural sensitivity/sensibility.

- My personal sensibility, though largely Western, is influenced by traditional textile dyes used for carpets and garments of Asia, Persia and the Magreb; with a nudge from my growing interest in prehistoric cave paintings.

> Pen+Paper: No matter how close one comes to a ‘correct’ numeric rendering of a theoretical depiction, the influence of pen+paper cannot be ignored, and greatly influences the ITRW appearance of an ink. While some inks are profoundly consistent in their appearance, we also have the elusive inks that are tremendously malleable, and then there’s the iron-gall ink ESSRI, which Member Bo Bo Olson described as ‘sneaky’, but I prefer the term ‘mischievous’.

__ __

I have purposely avoided addressing matters having to do with specific blends or how to conjure a given ‘colour chip’ based on numeric notation. I leave that to others with more expertise and experience. Rather I suggest starting by documenting your own explorations (and posting them on FPN!)

My Ink Reviews used to include the RGB+L values returned by my scanner, but I decided those numbers often add up to nothing, so rely more on my perception of ink-on-paper from a pen than banal read-outs from an instrument.

As mentioned elsewhere, blending can be very rewarding, but can also be a phenomenal time-waster. For example, my quest for the ideal ink for billets doux continues to be without reward, (in more ways than one), and has seen sheafs of failed samples and queues of pens awaiting clean-up. That has not dimmed my blonde optimism.

Wheee!

Bye,

S1

Edited May 3, 2016 by Sandy1

[Ash1]

Hi,

Please Note: For simplicity and common terminology I prefer the Munsell Color System, which uses a gamut based on Hue (colour) Value (light-dark) and Chroma (vibrancy.)

See: Wiki MCS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munsell_color_system and MSC Notation http://munsell.com/about-munsell-color/how-color-notation-works/

__

Those who enter into the realm of CMY+K FP ink blending face several challenges:

> Purity of Hue: FP inks are composed of dyes that are most often not the theoretical ideal CMY+K that is used for pigmented paint, printer inks, etc. In addition, FP inks, particularly Black, are often composed of more than one dye.

(See Post 7 https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/255652-tips-for-a-beginning-mixer/?p=2824580)

> Dye-Load: FP inks vary quite a bit in terms of the [apparent] amount of dye per unit volume; and that is greatly influenced by the pen+paper they dance with. Though I have not done a molecular analysis, it seems the low Value inks may contain dye/s that are of native low Value, or there may be a large amount higher Value dye bits per unit volume. This can skew mixing ratios and influence Value and Chroma. I did a small set of dilution samples with PR DC Supershow Blue, which gives a glimpse into that. https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/239373-dilution-private-reserve-dc-supershow-blue/

> Chroma: Other than Noodlers Batstate Blue, most FP inks have low Chroma - they do not come in Neon or Day-Glo. I consider that to be one of the aspects where blending commonly fails. One might match the Hue and Value of NBsBl, but forget about getting the retina-searing Chroma. Part of that limitation is because we work with FP compatible water-soluable dyes, which are translucent, rather than opaque pigments, which explains why we are without International Klein Blue and his Anthropometries were best served live. Wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Klein_Blue

> Complexity / Subtlety: I much admire those aspects in my inks, which goes a long way to explain why I have a fairly broad array. I look for a certain nuance, often in concert with a given pen+paper combo. It seems to me that only certain individual dyes will produce a given effect/perception. (Recall the persistent efforts to replicate Parker Penman Sapphire or MB Racing Green.)

- I remain intrigued by the Pilot iroshizuku inks, as they have a certain something something going on that Western inks do not have. I later learned that may well be shibui, (Wiki: a particular aesthetic of simple, subtle, and unobtrusive beauty) It seems to me that they also exploit a non-MCS colour palette, and Pilot might manufacture or have access to dyes unavailable to other ink Co.s to suit their individual/cultural sensitivity/sensibility.

- My personal sensibility, though largely Western, is influenced by textile dyes used for traditional carpets and garments of Asia, Persia and the Magreb; with a nudge from my growing interest in prehistoric cave paintings.

> Pen+Paper: No matter how close one comes to a correct numeric rendering of a theoretical depiction, the influence of pen+paper cannot be ignored, and greatly influences the ITRW appearance of an ink. While some inks are profoundly consistent in their appearance, we also have the elusive inks that are tremendously malleable, and then theres the iron-gall ink ESSRI, which Member Bo Bo Olson described as sneaky, but I prefer the term mischievous.

__ __

I have purposely avoided addressing matters having to do with specific blends or how to conjure a given colour chip based on numeric notation. I leave that to others with more expertise and experience. Rather I suggest starting by documenting your own explorations (and posting them on FPN!)

My Ink Reviews used to include the RGB+L values returned by my scanner, but I decided those numbers often add up to nothing, so rely more on my perception of ink-on-paper from a pen than banal read-outs from an instrument.

As mentioned elsewhere, blending can be very rewarding, but can also be a phenomenal time-waster. For example, my quest for the ideal ink for billets doux continues to be without reward, (in more ways than one), and has seen sheafs of failed samples and queues of pens awaiting clean-up. That has not dimmed my blonde optimism.

Wheee!

Bye,

S1

Thank you Sandy for your detailed explanation of ink mixing challenges. May I ask how you use the Munsell Color System when mixing inks?

[amberleadavis]

Sandy, thank you for the detailed explanation.

[Sandy1]

Thank you Sandy for your detailed explanation of ink mixing challenges. May I ask how you use the Munsell Color System when mixing inks?

 

 

Hi,

 

You're welcome!

 

I use MCS primarily as a navigational aid, rather than a calculator, to help me towards the colour I have in mind. So its more like a compass than a GPS.

 

Kindly take note that MCS is but one of many approaches to working with colour; and there are more recent and complex approaches, such as the ones used for digital photography.

 

Should one be so inclined, reading a bit on the history of colour systems can provide some insight into how colour is perceived and depicted. It seemed to have similarities to development of maps of the Earth. (Mapping the heavens is another kettle of fish, especially if an Astrologer does the the stirring.)

 

Bye,

S1

Edited May 3, 2016 by Sandy1

[Sandy1]

Sandy, thank you for the detailed explanation.

 

[amberleadavis]

Sandy, somewhere we had a discussion about the additive / subtractive color theories and why RYB mixes are murky and muddy. Do you recall that? (I could be just crazy).

[Ash1]

 

 

Hi,

 

You're welcome!

 

I use MCS primarily as a navigational aid, rather than a calculator, to help me towards the colour I have in mind. So its more like a compass than a GPS.

 

Kindly take note that MCS is but one of many approaches to working with colour; and there are more recent and complex approaches, such as the ones used for digital photography.

 

Should one be so inclined, reading a bit on the history of colour systems can provide some insight into how colour is perceived and depicted. It seemed to have similarities to development of maps of the Earth. (Mapping the heavens is another kettle of fish, especially if an Astrologer does the the stirring.)

 

Bye,

S1

I will definitely have a look at color systems and their history. With the MCS is there a color chart or any other reference that would be of help when mixing inks to get a color we like?