After The $2,500 Magnusson, I Should Not Really Be Surprised . . .

[Cryptos]

I am aware of all of that, and I do communicate with sellers. My first selection of nibs came from Paper & Ink Arts. Since then it has been eBay all the way.

 

As for styles, I dabble in whatever interests me. I have yet to find a nib that I couldn't use, I've yet to snag a nib on the paper, and I have never sprung a nib either.

 

My own hand leans toward Palmer business style. You are right that I could use all sorts of other nibs for general writing, but I happen to find the 404 especially pleasing to use. And Michael Sull recommends the 404 (among others) for learning Spencerian in his excellent book Learning to Write Spencerian Script.

[dhnz]

If you’re aware of all that, I don't understand why you often cite postage costs as being a major issue for you. And I’m sure you’ve previously said that you stayed away from Ebay.

 

Michael Sull has done a lot to popularise Spencerian writing and to record its history, but I don’t find him a great source for how to actually write it. He uses a lot of finger movement, does not use the hold advocated by the golden-age masters, and promotes the use of a Japanese G nib, which to my mind is too stiff for the hand. I prefer to get my guidance from people whose writing I actually admire, namely the old masters, and I can’t recall any of them recommending the 404 for Spencerian or OP.

 

That said, if you want to use vintage Gillott 404s, then there are plenty out there for sale.

[Cryptos]

I cite the postage cost because it remains a major issue despite talking to traders online. There are many who will not budge from using the Global Shipping thing. I have tried to keep away from eBay, but being here (NZ) means that there are no other options. I have no choice. Perhaps you do, but I don't.

 

As regard Michael Sull's skills, well I couldn't comment. What I will say is that Ken Fraser - a member here and of the Flourish Forum - recently posted in a thread on the latter concerning hand position. To quote:

 

"As long as you don't grip the pen so tightly that you develop callouses, I don't see that it makes a great deal of difference how you hold your pen. I'm a great believer in the basic traditional triangular penhold, as I feel that it offers most control and flexibility, whilst being very comfortable over long periods of writing but I'm well aware that we are not machines and variations in our physical make-up can dictate certain differences. I don't believe that there's such a thing as a "wrong" penhold. In the end, the only thing that really matters, is how it looks on paper, and the means of getting there is largely irrelevant.

Nor do I believe that there is any great benefit to be gained by adopting different hand grips for different pens and styles of writing. About sixty years ago, I settled on the basic handgrip as the best for me, and I've used it without modification for all styles of writing with all types of pen and nib, ever since."

 

Original post bottom of page 2 - here - http://theflourishforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=4547.msg58791#msg58791

 

 

 

I don't hold with the view that the "old masters" were any better than the top class calligraphers of today.

[dhnz]

I am in New Zealand too and postage is not a major issue for me. At worst, I use NZ Post’s Youshop, which is cheaper than the USPS global priority boxes.

 

Many people put forward the notion that hand position does not matter and that any position you prefer is fine, but I don’t agree with that. I grew up using the modern, rest-on-the-side-of-your-hand, position and I switched to the traditional position and I can say from my experience that the traditional position is far superior for lightness of touch and ease of creating curves. If it didn’t matter, why did the old penmanship manuals devote so much space to illustrating the correct way to hold the pen? I tend to note that those who say that any position is fine have not put the time in to learn the traditional hold.

 

While there is nothing to stop calligraphers today becoming as good as the old masters, there are very few out there who come anywhere close, and in this I include most of the usual names. If one is honest and compares the work of many of today’s practitioners of Spencerian and OP with the work of Lupfer, Madarasz, Francis, Zaner, et al, one has to admit that their lines are nowhere near as smooth and their hairlines nowhere near as fine, and the fairness of their curves is lacking.

Edited April 18, 2016 by dhnz

[Cryptos]

I was going to write something else but changed my mind. While I may respect your opinion (even though I do not know who you are), I don't agree with it on either hand position nor the comparison between today and yesterday.

[dhnz]

Have you tried both hand positions (and not just for an hour or so)? If not, why would you discount the teaching of the acknowledged masters of the hand?

 

As for today's penmen versus yesterday's, why don't you give a link to something that in your opinion is as good as the best of someone like Lupfer. Then I'll attempt to show you why it's not as good.

[Cryptos]

Edited:

 

As with a great many other topics and discussions, and rather tardily as is my usual speed, I have just realised that I don't know what I am talking about.

[dhnz]

Well, US$18 a nib for the gross of Zanerian Fine Writers! I was looking forward to watching the snipers outbid each other in the last seconds but my building had a fire alarm, so I had to check the bid history to see how the bids had fallen as the clock ticked down.

 

PS. And $14 a nib for the 303s. It would be nice to think that we might see some world-class writing done with these nibs, but I doubt it.

 

PPS. I see the winner of the Zanerians was willing to drop another $1000 on the 601EFs but got outbid.

Edited April 22, 2016 by dhnz

[araybanfan]

If you’re aware of all that, I don't understand why you often cite postage costs as being a major issue for you. And I’m sure you’ve previously said that you stayed away from Ebay.

 

Michael Sull has done a lot to popularise Spencerian writing and to record its history, but I don’t find him a great source for how to actually write it. He uses a lot of finger movement, does not use the hold advocated by the golden-age masters, and promotes the use of a Japanese G nib, which to my mind is too stiff for the hand. I prefer to get my guidance from people whose writing I actually admire, namely the old masters, and I can’t recall any of them recommending the 404 for Spencerian or OP.

 

That said, if you want to use vintage Gillott 404s, then there are plenty out there for sale.

Both the g nib and 404 do not have the hairlines like the 303 which i prefer. Your observations on Mr Sull cracked me up. The holding stance do make a difference as you have mentioned. Finger movement especially on the consistencies with connecting angles and slants and clean ovals can be problematic. Full arm swing on the other hand is relevant to scale. Writing a lowercase 'i' vs the oval for capital S demands different attention with the latter dependant more on arm swing. That said the script depends largely on the understanding the structure. The act on Writing is a mere expression over the understanding. It is refreshing to read your enlightening thoughts. I love to see your penmanship from such profound views.

[dhnz]

I love to see your penmanship from such profound views.

 

I don’t usually post my practice work because (1) I’m not very good; (2) I do it purely for myself; and (3) I already know what’s wrong with my work so I don’t need others to tell me. Luckily, you don’t have to be great at Spencerian or OP yourself to recognise quality work by others. That said, I did a few practice runs at E A Lupfer’s classic signature last night so I uploaded one for you.

 

There’s plenty wrong with this attempt, starting with the ink. I ran out of fresh ink months weeks ago, and I’ve been getting by simply by adding water to a small amount of precipitate left in an old bottle of McCaffrey’s and shaking it. The lack of pigment is why the downstrokes are virtually invisible, and the nib was a well-used practice nib, so that’s why there are no hairlines. I also wasn’t paying attention and missed the printed line with my “A”, but I continued below that line rather than trying to move the lowercase up, which would have looked worse.

 

I was a big fan of the 303 until I bought a gross late last year and found 50 of them had mis-formed points right out of the box. A lot of the rest had off-centre slits and all had problems with ink flow. I complained to British Pens (Gillott) about it and they couldn’t care less. They basically said that they knew there were issues with their quality and that they’d retooled the 303 line as a result, but they did not apologise, offer replacements, or say why they’d continued to ship products they knew were inferior.

 

BP told me that they’d started producing the new nibs before Christmas, but I see John Neal recently said he hadn’t received them yet, so I don’t know why there’s been such a delay in getting them to market. I did speak to one person who’d been sent a couple of samples last year and he said they felt thinner and rougher than the last 303s he’d bought and, out of the two he was sent, one was slit off centre. The gross I’d bought were also thinner and rougher, and they had longer side slits than the last ones I’d bought (making them a lot more flexible), so I assumed they were from the new tooling, but BP denied it.

 

Incidentally, BP had been looking at reintroducing the Principality and reportedly had found the original tooling but told me they were no longer proceeding with this. They claimed that they were confident that they could have matched the quality of the original, but if they believe that they can make a great nib then why are they foisting this rubbish on their customers? The only answer I can come up with is that they just don’t care.

Edited May 3, 2016 by dhnz

[Cryptos]

I would have sent the nibs back as not fit for sale. Wonder how much attention they would pay if a few people did that.

[araybanfan]

 

I don’t usually post my practice work because (1) I’m not very good; (2) I do it purely for myself; and (3) I already know what’s wrong with my work so I don’t need others to tell me. Luckily, you don’t have to be great at Spencerian or OP yourself to recognise quality work by others. That said, I did a few practice runs at E A Lupfer’s classic signature last night so I uploaded one for you.

 

There’s plenty wrong with this attempt, starting with the ink. I ran out of fresh ink months weeks ago, and I’ve been getting by simply by adding water to a small amount of precipitate left in an old bottle of McCaffrey’s and shaking it. The lack of pigment is why the downstrokes are virtually invisible, and the nib was a well-used practice nib, so that’s why there are no hairlines. I also wasn’t paying attention and missed the printed line with my “A”, but I continued below that line rather than trying to move the lowercase up, which would have looked worse.

 

I was a big fan of the 303 until I bought a gross late last year and found 50 of them had mis-formed points right out of the box. A lot of the rest had off-centre slits and all had problems with ink flow. I complained to British Pens (Gillott) about it and they couldn’t care less. They basically said that they knew there were issues with their quality and that they’d retooled the 303 line as a result, but they did not apologise, offer replacements, or say why they’d continued to ship products they knew were inferior.

 

BP told me that they’d started producing the new nibs before Christmas, but I see John Neal recently said he hadn’t received them yet, so I don’t know why there’s been such a delay in getting them to market. I did speak to one person who’d been sent a couple of samples last year and he said they felt thinner and rougher than the last 303s he’d bought and, out of the two he was sent, one was slit off centre. The gross I’d bought were also thinner and rougher, and they had longer side slits than the last ones I’d bought (making them a lot more flexible), so I assumed they were from the new tooling, but BP denied it.

 

Incidentally, BP had been looking at reintroducing the Principality and reportedly had found the original tooling but told me they were no longer proceeding with this. They claimed that they were confident that they could have matched the quality of the original, but if they believe that they can make a great nib then why are they foisting this rubbish on their customers? The only answer I can come up with is that they just don’t care.

 

Thanks for sharing, yes the visibility of the hairlines are on the faint side, i can still see the overall with the ending oval looking nice.

 

I am surprised over the 303 having slipped on the quality. I just ran out of 303 and ordered some a few days ago and keeping my fingers crossed after reading your reply. In the midst, I am quite surprised with the Esterbrook 354, it didn't do much for me in the past. Just as my stock on 303 was getting lower, i pulled out a 354 just for the fun of it and i have been enjoying it since. I have included a writing sample below between a used 303 and a fairly new 354.

 

The curls are to illustrate the amount of flex between the 2 nibs. Both can produce great hairlines. The 303 is clearly superior in the flex and ink capacity. In practical terms however, I added the letter "W" as a study, the gap closes in between the two. In short, i find the Esterbrook 354 to be a joy to write with despite the given size and limitations. I look at it as a companion rather than a replacement to the 303. Your mileage may vary. Thanks.

 

 

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y36/rayshader/052_zpskxeurhxl.jpg

Edited May 3, 2016 by araybanfan

[dhnz]

Let us know what the 303s are like when you get them.

 

The lithographic and mapping nibs have become very popular over the last few years, in part I guess because other vintage nibs have gone up so much in price. Not so very long ago, gross boxes of the Esterbrook 354s and 355s and the Hunt 100s and 103s were going for US$5–10 each. Now, they're considerably more. The Gillott nibs were always a bit more.

 

I bought some of the Hunt and Esterbrook nibs when they were cheap but I never really liked them. I’ve had problems with inkflow and, as you’ve pointed out, their small size means they’re not capable of very wide shades. You can get a fine line from them, but if you’ve got a light touch I find you can do almost as well with a full size nib.

 

Have you bought any Leonardt Principals in the last couple of years? I’m still using up stocks I bought from when they first released them and I’m interested in whether they’ve made any tweaks to it along the way.

 

I’m going to try to find some time to make up a new batch of iron gall ink over the next few days so that I can finally throw way the watered-down McCaffery’s. I might be able to post some more practice when that’s done.

[araybanfan]

Let us know what the 303s are like when you get them.

 

The lithographic and mapping nibs have become very popular over the last few years, in part I guess because other vintage nibs have gone up so much in price. Not so very long ago, gross boxes of the Esterbrook 354s and 355s and the Hunt 100s and 103s were going for US$5–10 each. Now, they're considerably more. The Gillott nibs were always a bit more.

 

I bought some of the Hunt and Esterbrook nibs when they were cheap but I never really liked them. I’ve had problems with inkflow and, as you’ve pointed out, their small size means they’re not capable of very wide shades. You can get a fine line from them, but if you’ve got a light touch I find you can do almost as well with a full size nib.

 

Have you bought any Leonardt Principals in the last couple of years? I’m still using up stocks I bought from when they first released them and I’m interested in whether they’ve made any tweaks to it along the way.

 

I’m going to try to find some time to make up a new batch of iron gall ink over the next few days so that I can finally throw way the watered-down McCaffery’s. I might be able to post some more practice when that’s done.

I started learning over a year plus ago by myself. I have some what limited myself from the nib exploration when i was trying to piece out what spencerian is about. Too many variants add to confusion was something i wish to avoid. Thus I did not plunge into the vintage variants having only the tried 354 and 170. I was learning largely with the 101 and G nib. It is strange how my preference on nibs changes over time, earlier this year I grew to appreciate the 303 for the refinement in its hairlines that is remarkable across the board. It is not an easy nib to use however. The last time i used the Leonardt ef was more than 6 months ago. I still prefer the 303 between the two. I have bought the some Leonardt ef again with the batch of 303 due to arrive soon.

 

Lastly nibs do relate on the size of the writing, paper and ink. There isn't one best nib for all purposes ultimately. For carding writing using gouache I actually prefer a G nib for its capacity. G nib is not the last word on refinement with hairlines, it requires a fair bit more pressure for swells. As an all rounder, i find totally friendly and they last a good time longer than other nibs. The titanium G Zebra is my favourite of all the G I have used so far.

 

I like the norton walnut ink the best for general writing.

Edited May 6, 2016 by araybanfan

[dhnz]

I have quite a few vintage nibs but stick to writing with modern nibs now. I originally used the Leonardt Principal, then I moved to the 303, and latterly I've been using the Hunt 101. I did like the hairlines of the 303 but the 101 is my favourite. I didn’t like the 101 so much until they redesigned it a couple of years ago. It is more flexible than the other two (and more flexible than the Gillott Principality), so unless you have a very light touch you’ll lose the hairlines. That’s where the traditional pen hold and arm movement come in to their own – with speed and fluid movement you can get beautiful results. But if you’re a painfully slow writer – Michael Sull and Barbara Calzolari come to mind – you won’t get the best out of it.

 

I do have a Zebra G nib and a Tachikawa G nib but I’ve never liked them. They’re too inflexible for me and the hairlines are (bleep). I used a Paper and Ink Arts hourglass oblique for several years but picked up a Strahm holder last year and now use that almost exclusively.

 

I’ve not used walnut ink; I stick to iron gall. I’ve made some Indian ink from time to time but iron gall just flows better.

[araybanfan]

I have quite a few vintage nibs but stick to writing with modern nibs now. I originally used the Leonardt Principal, then I moved to the 303, and latterly I've been using the Hunt 101. I did like the hairlines of the 303 but the 101 is my favourite. I didn’t like the 101 so much until they redesigned it a couple of years ago. It is more flexible than the other two (and more flexible than the Gillott Principality), so unless you have a very light touch you’ll lose the hairlines. That’s where the traditional pen hold and arm movement come in to their own – with speed and fluid movement you can get beautiful results. But if you’re a painfully slow writer – Michael Sull and Barbara Calzolari come to mind – you won’t get the best out of it.

 

I do have a Zebra G nib and a Tachikawa G nib but I’ve never liked them. They’re too inflexible for me and the hairlines are (bleep). I used a Paper and Ink Arts hourglass oblique for several years but picked up a Strahm holder last year and now use that almost exclusively.

 

I’ve not used walnut ink; I stick to iron gall. I’ve made some Indian ink from time to time but iron gall just flows better.

End of the day nibs are like beverages to me, sometimes I prefer one drink over the other, doesn't diminish the virtues between the lot. Infact the differences is an advantage enabling me the choices to suit the occasions. I don't prescribe to the nib with the widest flex thus is the best nib school of thought but that's just me. BTW Norton walnut ink is an absolute bliss to write with. I used to like the 101 for the remarkable smoothness and the swells it produces. Moving on to 8mm spaced lines pad for writing most of the time, I grew in favour of the titanium G that is not the regular G variants. Off memory it has better hairlines over the typical G, thus it feels like another nib somewhat. You got to try it to know what i mean.

 

The attachment is a comparison between the Titanium Zebra G, Hunt 101 and Gillot 303 in gold on black without pushing them too hard. The titanium G is actually not far too from the rest. The 303 is actually quite worn. Take my sample with a pinch of salt, the letter G is about 1.5 inches top to bottom. Actually, I had a hard time taking a photo on the hairlines thus this scan. The gold is a tad more yellowish actually.

 

 

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y36/rayshader/gala_zpsra6lctxt.jpg

Edited May 8, 2016 by araybanfan

[Scrawler]

I had no idea there was such demand for fine vintage dip nibs. I have many dozens of a wide variety of antique nibs, which I had planned to simply give away at my local pen club. Perhaps I should become an ebay merchant instead.That Zanerian is not hugely different to the Imperial 101, of which I have several because I was experimenting putting them into fountain pen bodies. At the time I bought them they were under $2 each.

[AAAndrew]

Some are, some aren't, and I can't figure out what makes one go for crazy prices and what doesn't. As a great example, I kind of collect an obscure pen maker from Philadelphia: Leon Isaacs. In 1900 the company was bought by the biggest Philly maker Turner & Harrison. In homage to Leon Isaacs' partner and head of sales, M. Voorsanger, Turner & Harrison brought out a line of steel pens marked M.V.. These are just T&H standard pens with a different label. I have a couple of the numbers just because it's related to Leon Isaacs. There are two boxes for sale right now that are going for unexplainable amounts. The only thing I can think of is that there is actually someone else who cares about Leon Isaacs, or they think the box of "Double Elastic" pens are very flexible. They aren't. They're not like the Esterbrook 135 double elastics, which are nice pens, but not the greatest. These are stiffer with an extra cutout for more spring but not necessarily more flex.

 

Anyway, just a great example of obscure nibs going for big bucks, and yet I picked up a box of Eclectic pens, another obscure nib, yet super flexible, for cents per nib.

 

But the big name nibs just go for more, I guess. So, you have to take some chances to find the hidden treasures. Sell off your Zanerian and Gillott nibs and you'll have enough to buy yourself a really nice fountain pen. Or you can send me the odd and semi-flex ones and I'll find them a nice home.