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After The $2,500 Magnusson, I Should Not Really Be Surprised . . .


dhnz

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but $US117 for a single Musselman’s Perfection?

 

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Dip-pen-nib-Musselmans-PERFECTION-Quincy-ILL-England-/262328592793

 

I’d love to know who pays these ridiculous prices. Maybe some Hollywood star has taken up writing copperplate.

 

Edit: I did, of course, forget to put the link in originally. Sorry. And mods, if one of you would be so kind as to lowercase that pesky capital T at the end of ‘Shouldn’t’ in the title, I'd be grateful. I tried but the editor would’t let me change it.

Edited by dhnz
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That is a ridiculous price to pay for any nib. Why would anyone pay that much for a disposable nib?

 

S.

 

ps. that capital T in shouldn't is caused by the forum software trying to be a bit too smart. I will change it to 'should not' just to get rid of it :-)

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What, about this item, did he see, that I didn't see, that makes it worth $117 ? .

Yes, there are people for whom $117 is not significant. Yes, there is at least ONE "Hollywood type" in the membership. I have met him, and he is not "ridiculous."

Auf freiem Grund mit freiem Volke stehn.
Zum Augenblicke dürft ich sagen:
Verweile doch, du bist so schön !

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It's one of the so-called "Dream Nibs". Never seen one myself, probably never will either, but I did get my hands on a Ivison Phinney #1 Spencerian Double Elastic. Didn't cost anything like the Musselman's Perfection, and quite frankly I found it underwhelming (or at least no better than a Gillott 303/404).

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Yes, there is at least ONE "Hollywood type" in the membership. I have met him, and he is not "ridiculous."

 

Please do not put words in my mouth. I did not say anyone was ridiculous, much less a specific person whose existence I was ignorant of and was just musing about. I said the price was ridiculous, and I stand by that. If someone can afford it and wants to pay such prices, then that is their right, but I’d love to know why they value them so highly.

 

It's one of the so-called "Dream Nibs". Never seen one myself, probably never will either, but I did get my hands on a Ivison Phinney #1 Spencerian Double Elastic. Didn't cost anything like the Musselman's Perfection, and quite frankly I found it underwhelming (or at least no better than a Gillott 303/404).

 

Well, the ‘dream points’ are Joe Vitolo’s dream points, they’re not some universally and objectively declared best nibs ever. I have tried all those nibs and certainly not all would make my list of favourite nibs. The 604EF, Spencerian, 303, and Musselman’s are not flexible enough for the shades I like in OP, so I am not particularly interested in them.

 

There is nothing about these nibs that is a quantum leap ahead of other vintage nibs or a well-made modern nib. Any nib may have just the right combination of characteristics to make it a penman’s dream point. I think the Principality is capable of hairlines a touch finer than other, similar, nibs, but I have seen very few modern penmen who have the light touch needed to bring that out anyway.

 

PS. Thanks smk for editing the title. Obviously when I was editing the title, the software was changing it back again on me.

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The 604EF, Spencerian, 303, and Musselman’s are not flexible enough for the shades I like in OP, so I am not particularly interested in them.

 

I would be interested to know what nibs you are referring to here, with regard to being more flexible that is. I've only tried two of the four you mention. In all seriousness, perhaps my 'feel' is not yet sufficiently developed to discern the difference between these? Still a beginner here really, and not going anywhere since the untimely destruction of my oblique holders, alas.

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Perhaps some don't yet realise how disposable and short-lived copperplate dip nibs are? That being said, I haven't tried any of these fabled vintage nibs, so maybe they really are all that! I prefer the convenience of modern nibs as you can order more whenever you like and I don't have to be precious about them.

I was once a bottle of ink, Inky Dinky Thinky Inky, Blacky Minky Bottle of Ink!

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I would be interested to know what nibs you are referring to here, with regard to being more flexible that is. I've only tried two of the four you mention. In all seriousness, perhaps my 'feel' is not yet sufficiently developed to discern the difference between these? Still a beginner here really, and not going anywhere since the untimely destruction of my oblique holders, alas.

 

Just talking modern nibs, the Leonardt Principal, the Gillott 303, and the Hunt 101 to name just three are all more flexible than the vintage 303, the Musselman, and the 604EF. If you actually want to continue pointed pen work, just get yourself a Speedball oblique (couple of dollars) and start practising. They're not as good as an adjustable holder but I know plenty of people who produce good work with them.

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That being said, I haven't tried any of these fabled vintage nibs, so maybe they really are all that!

 

No, they're not. They're just nibs. They won't turn a poor or mediocre penman into a good penman; only practice will do that. I guarantee you that you would see more improvement in your writing by spending $117 on modern nibs and using them all to practice with than you'd see by buying one Musselman's and using that up. I'm also pretty sure that, unless you're so rich that the money would be of no concern, you'd be very disappointed if you had spent $117 on a single nib in the expectation that it would be light years ahead of a Leonardt Principal or Hunt 101.

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After trying a whole bunch of nibs (hundreds) including several of the "dream" nibs, I'm convinced that what makes one nib a "dream" nib for someone as opposed to another is that each nib has a different experience when used. It's not about just flexibility, or "action" (spring, snap, etc...), but a combination of all of them and something else I can't describe. I've got lots of nibs that are more flexible than a 303 (i.e. can make a larger shade), or sharper hairlines, but there aren't many that put together all the aspects of a nib the same way. Spencerian No1's are flexible and make nice hairlines while being reasonably smooth (at least compared to a 303), but an Esterbrook 333, or A1 can be more flexible, with better snap and sharper lines with much better smoothness, but some people can't stand them when compared to a 303, or a modern 404 even. A vintage Hunt 56 School is sharper, and has greater flex than any vintage 303 I've used, but some like it and some don't.

 

There was a reason for the hundred of different styles of pens, 250 from Esterbrook alone, they sold in the heyday of steel pens. Each one has its own "experience" and you've got to find the one that fits you, your expectations and needs, the best.

 

As for the original question, I guess if someone had the money, it could have been either the drive to have the best, or the collector's drive to have all of the best ones, or the desire to use the best. Whatever it was, it drove some to bid this up to great heights. As long as prices remain high, I'll continue to sell off the "dream nibs" that aren't so dreamy for me. It allows me to buy the ones that may be my dream, while they're someone else's nightmare.

 

“When the historians of education do equal and exact justice to all who have contributed toward educational progress, they will devote several pages to those revolutionists who invented steel pens and blackboards.” V.T. Thayer, 1928

Check out my Steel Pen Blog

"No one is exempt from talking nonsense; the mistake is to do it solemnly."

-Montaigne

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Writing results are one thing but the writing feel is quite another. In that respect I do quite like the Musselman's Perfection even if it does not help me write any better :-) It still does not warrant that kind of price though.

 

It might be just me but I feel that the older pens do not last as long as modern ones. I get more than double the writing life from a Hunt 101 than from a Spencerian No.1 or an Esterbrook 357.

 

- Salman

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I get more than double the writing life from a Hunt 101 than from a Spencerian No.1 or an Esterbrook 357.

 

That’s my experience too. My current Hunt 101 has been in my holder for ages now and is still going strong. It’s a brilliant nib.

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… I'm convinced that what makes one nib a "dream" nib for someone as opposed to another is that each nib has a different experience when used. It's not about just flexibility, or "action" (spring, snap, etc...), but a combination of all of them and something else I can't describe.

 

Absolutely. When there were hundreds of nibs available from dozens of manufacturers, you had an excellent chance of finding a nib that fitted you perfectly. Now, you’ll probably have to compromise on one or more aspects. It took me at least a year of daily practice to really start feeling like I had a handle on what I wanted and needed out of a nib.

 

I do feel that the ‘dream points’ graphic has become a bit of a distraction, especially to beginners, and I’m sure that it’s been responsible for people paying some scurrilous sellers their $30 asking price just so they can experience one of these nibs. As I’ve noted elsewhere, in my experience ‘penmen’ these days would do better concentrating on the basics (like getting their speed up) with a $1–$2 modern nib rather than paying $5+ per vintage nib or spending hours searching Ebay for bargain lots.

 

I can understand someone wanting to complete a collection or even just being obsessive and wanting to use only a particular nib. But, I still struggle to see why they’d pay that much. Though rare, the Musselman Perfection is not unobtainable and you can often find them going for $30 a nib.

 

I have hopes that in another 10 years or so 3D printing will have evolved to the stage that there is a suitable metallic medium for making nibs from. That would be brilliant – just imagine printing out a batch of your own Principalities!

Edited by dhnz
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I have far less experience of different dip pens than, well just about everyone. However, I have found that within my limits the Gillott 404 best suited my hand. It is perhaps pertinent to note that this nib best suits my hand today, and in another year or two - if I maintain the practice - I may find that it does not suit it as well. Having said that, of course I cannot get 404s anyway, so it's a little academic. Back to the zebra G!

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Why can’t you get 404s? If you’re talking vintage 404s, they’re not that rare and you must have got some before to know they suit you.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Why can’t you get 404s? If you’re talking vintage 404s, they’re not that rare and you must have got some before to know they suit you.

 

I've bid on two full boxes over the last few weeks. Got outbid, again. I also get crippled by shipping, that is, it impacts on my bidding ceiling.

 

I managed to try the 404 when a very kind lady allowed a modest nib swap with me, and sent me 4 of the 404s. I've been nursing them ever since, and I am still on the first one. The way the prices have been going lately it looks like I will never get any in good numbers. I do wonder if the latest version is good though, so perhaps I should acquire a dozen of those for a try out.

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We have a new record in stupid prices: US$130 for a single Zanerian Fine Writer, even though one was also available at the same time for Buy-it-Now from a different seller at US$28!

 

http://www.ebay.com/...=p2047675.l2557

 

(I posted this in a different thread too but thought some may miss it there.)

Saw that. Some crazy prices put there. I just sold the five Principalities I had for $72 on the Bay. That's a steal compared to the Fine Writer which just sold.

 

“When the historians of education do equal and exact justice to all who have contributed toward educational progress, they will devote several pages to those revolutionists who invented steel pens and blackboards.” V.T. Thayer, 1928

Check out my Steel Pen Blog

"No one is exempt from talking nonsense; the mistake is to do it solemnly."

-Montaigne

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I also get crippled by shipping, that is, it impacts on my bidding ceiling.

 

I managed to try the 404 when a very kind lady allowed a modest nib swap with me, and sent me 4 of the 404s. I've been nursing them ever since, and I am still on the first one.

 

I would never recommend that a beginner spend a lot of money on buying up stock of a nib that they've only tried one of. You're better off trying a lot of nibs and only stocking up when you've spent a bit of time with them all.

 

What style of writing are you learning anyway? In my opinion, the 404 is not a good nib for Spencerian or ornamental penmanship – it's not flexible enough. If you have a heavy hand or want to do only very lightly shaded Spencerian, I guess it might work, but I'd still recommend learning a lighter grip and how to reign in the shades from a more flexible nib instead. The 404 would be fine for business penmanship, but then there are lots of dirt cheap nibs out there that would work for that too.

 

Last time I tried them, the modern 404s weren't too bad. Other manufacturers also made versions of the 404. The market was awash with cheap Esterbrook 358s a few years ago and they can still be found, though not as cheap. The Hunt 56 is probably the most flexible 404 style nib out there.

 

Ebay default shipping can be expensive but most sellers are happy to work with you and ship small things like nibs in a small padded envelope or slotted into corrugated cardboard in an envelope. You can also ask to have them sent without tracking and insurance at your own risk. Retailers like John Neal and Paper and Ink Arts will also do this. Shipping need not be expensive for nibs.

Edited by dhnz
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