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My First Vintage Pen Buy. It's A Waterman's, But What Is It?

waterman watermans vintage repair

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#1 gamingoodz

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Posted 02 April 2016 - 01:02

So I'm pretty new to fountain pens with only about 3 months of experience using them. All of my pens until now have been cheap Jinhao or Pilot Metropolitans. 

 

I've recently become very interested with Vintage pens. I've never had a gold nibbed pen at all let alone a nice vintage pen and the allure of a semi-flex nib and having a piece of history was too much to resist. 

 

So I've been checking eBay over and over and over again lately looking for a good deal which I couldn't find. SO I eventually just took a chance and hit purchase on something. I paid about $40 for this pen (Which im pretty sure is way to much?) and its a Waterman pen or more correctly I guess looking at the barrel Waterman's (Which looking it up is the same company thankfuly) But I didn't look up the different models of Waterman pens to much before buying..

 

Also are some of these Waterman nibs more sought after than others? the nib seems like an italic nib and looks to be in ok-ish condition tho either a tine is to narrow on onme side of the slit was cut off center a bit. 

 

 

Is this a Waterman's Crusader "open" ? And instead of making another thread for repair section does anyone know if this uses a 16 size sack? Shame the sack on the pen has a small tear right below the section where the lever hits it. To bad I can't just put some glue there, right? lol. I do think I paid to much but I don't know what do you guys think as a first vintage pen?

 

Thanks!

 

Here are some pictures. They are hosted on imgur they are high res if you click them and look at them on imgur

 

Fdfvkd2m.jpg\eIg1qOhm.jpgUKjsc9ym.jpg

g8BHY8mm.jpgh3D0DS4m.jpg


Edited by gamingoodz, 02 April 2016 - 01:30.

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#2 Rednaxela

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Posted 02 April 2016 - 07:23

Nice pen. Looks like a great first restoration project pen indeed.

To see if it has any writing potential, you could use it as a dip pen. If that looks OK, I'd resac it. The tear you describe indicates that the sac is too old anyway.

I worked out the required sac size for my Waterman 92 by following the directions of this seller. http://www.vintagepensacsandparts.com This worked out well.

Unfortunately I can not tell you much about the model number etc., but I hope this helps nonetheless.
~ Alexander

#3 Force

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Posted 02 April 2016 - 08:22

You will find some suggestions here.

 

While the cap and barrel are very similar, the grip is not but then again things changed by country of origin etc in that era.



#4 Uncle Red

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Posted 02 April 2016 - 18:31

At one point that was called a Crusader, the ones with the "hooded" nibs were called Taperite Crusaders. That nib looks like it could use some professional TLC. Is there tipping on the end of both tines?

 

I bought a bag of sacks of different sizes and just try sacks 'til I find one that fits.



#5 gamingoodz

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Posted 03 April 2016 - 01:01

Atone point that was called a Crusader, the ones with the "hooded" nibs were called Taperite Crusaders. That nib looks like it could use some professional TLC. Is there tipping on the end of both tines?

 

I bought a bag of sacks of different sizes and just try sacks 'til I find one that fits.

 

The nib is pretty beat up, I just tried it out by dipping the pen since the sack is ruined. It writes a Super super wet line and most of the time seems to write fine but sometimes it skips or hard starts. 

 

Here are some pictures I took with my phone through my cheap loupe I have. 

 

Here you can see the gold is worn off the tipping area: 
8QAkEiFl.jpg

 

This one shows what I meant about one tine being wider or the tine was cut off center some. ALso the edges of the tip look uneven for some reason.

zJymDp2l.jpg

 

This is a side view of the tipping

pN0VDm2l.jpg

 

Underside of the tip

eRml1szl.jpg

 

Another underside of the tip

zkSuG1bl.jpg


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#6 Uncle Red

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Posted 03 April 2016 - 19:32

That looks better than I thought. Nibs cut slightly asymetric are not uncommon and should not worry you. The tipping on the underside looks fine. Cleaned up with a new sack and it sould be a great pen.



#7 Ernst Bitterman

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Posted 04 April 2016 - 20:00

The side-profile of the tipping looks about right, although I wouldn't be surprised to hear that the original owner wrote at a fairly steep angle.  I suspect that the attachment of the tipping was a little off-centre, but it doesn't look like the working footprint is affected so I wouldn't worry about the topside lopside.


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#8 redbike

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Posted 05 April 2016 - 14:43

Here you can see the gold is worn off the tipping area: 

The gold isn't worn off - the tipping is a different metal than the gold, so it should look that way. 



#9 brettttt

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Posted 05 April 2016 - 18:01

BTW, just to confirm: Yes, this is a Crusader with an open point. To be more exact, it's the second style of three Crusaders, and it dates from about 1949-1951. AFAIK; there might be relevant information out there that I don't have.

 

$40 doesn't seem completely out of line for this pen. Those caps tend to get banged up easily, in my experience, so the fact that yours is in pretty good shape is a point in its favor. 

 

Finally, the point seems to extend from the section a long ways. Is it well seated? I'd be cautious when capping, to make sure the tip doesn't hit the inside of the cap.



#10 Ernst Bitterman

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Posted 05 April 2016 - 22:33

Finally, the point seems to extend from the section a long ways. Is it well seated? I'd be cautious when capping, to make sure the tip doesn't hit the inside of the cap.

 

It might just be the relatively short section giving that impression; the one I had looks about the same (although I don't want to urge against caution)--

Waterman-0297.jpg


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#11 pen lady

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Posted 05 April 2016 - 23:30

I'm with Bretttt.  I thought the nib and feed were out a bit too far as well.  Can those in the know tell the OP how to get them back where they should be.  My own methods are horribly unorthodox so I'm keeping quiet.



#12 gamingoodz

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Posted 06 April 2016 - 02:27

BTW, just to confirm: Yes, this is a Crusader with an open point. To be more exact, it's the second style of three Crusaders, and it dates from about 1949-1951. AFAIK; there might be relevant information out there that I don't have.

 

$40 doesn't seem completely out of line for this pen. Those caps tend to get banged up easily, in my experience, so the fact that yours is in pretty good shape is a point in its favor. 

 

Finally, the point seems to extend from the section a long ways. Is it well seated? I'd be cautious when capping, to make sure the tip doesn't hit the inside of the cap.

 

Thank you for the info, as I said I did tons of looking and waiting on eBay for a "steal" and eventually one day just gave in hit hit buy on the first thing I seen that looked somewhat decent even if it wasn't a deal lol. I was growing impatient trying to find a great deal. I would LOVE to someday own a nice waterman 52 or 54 or mabie todd or something with a wet noodle nib, they are all far out of my price range though and the ones that are decent looking deals dont mention anything about the fexibility of the nib so I am to afrraid to take the chance. One day though, one day..

You can't realy see it in the pictures but the cap is a little dinged up and for some reason the cap is alittle wobbly on the pen when caped, it doesn't fall off or anything but it is wobbly. 

 

Are the feed and nib just friction fit in this pen? Can they just pull out? I didn't want to try without knowning. 


Edited by gamingoodz, 06 April 2016 - 02:28.

The first step toward change is awareness. The second step is acceptance.

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#13 Rednaxela

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Posted 06 April 2016 - 05:27

With the Waterman 92 I recently restored, I got the nib and feed out after soaking it extensively and with the help of a (DIY) knock out block.

It had too much dried up ink inside to safely try the pulling method, especially for a novice like me.
~ Alexander

#14 brettttt

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Posted 06 April 2016 - 14:29

Yes, the nib & feed are friction-fit. I would follow Alexander's example, though, and not try to *pull* them out. A DIY knock-out block is pretty simple to make, and a necessity if you're going to do any repairs at all, really. 

 

The caps on the Watermans of this era do tend to wobble, alas. The convex ring (which you did put back on after you shot the photos, right?) doesn't give much gripping area, if you know what I mean. Waterman's also used wider, convex rings on some of their pens at that time, though I don't recall whether I've seen them on Crusaders. Anyway, those tend to work a bit better, in my experience. You might be able to improve the fit by taking out the little brass cage thingy that is inserted in the cap for the ring to grip onto. If one is careful one can often get it out, reshape the dents (which have often gotten sketchy over the years), and put it back in for a more secure "snap." 

 

I would also suggest that you continue to look at Watermans of this vintage if you're interested in a flexible point. Although a lot of pen companies were making mostly rigid nibs by the 1940s, I have quite a few flexible 1940s Watermans.



#15 gamingoodz

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 21:12

With the Waterman 92 I recently restored, I got the nib and feed out after soaking it extensively and with the help of a (DIY) knock out block.

It had too much dried up ink inside to safely try the pulling method, especially for a novice like me.

 

I took my time and kocked the feed and nib out and have the pen all apart and everything ready to go but realizing how tight that feed fits into the section how the heck do you get it back in without damaging it? 

 

I mean its super tight going back in even all cleaned up. 

Thanks

 

IMG_20160408_170934.jpg


Edited by gamingoodz, 08 April 2016 - 21:33.

The first step toward change is awareness. The second step is acceptance.

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#16 Rednaxela

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Posted 09 April 2016 - 00:21

Great, well done!

Did you thoroughly clean everything afterwards? Maybe there's still some dried up ink sitting in the way somewhere?

With my own pen, the first half of the feed went in without effort, the second half took some pushing.

I've heard things about rubbing the feed (outside, not the channel) with candlewax or silicone grease, primarily for sealing the feed/section interface. However this might have a lubricating effect too.

Just fantasising though. I'm sure the experts here will be able to tell you if it makes any sense.
~ Alexander

#17 Rednaxela

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Posted 09 April 2016 - 00:24

I mean its super tight going back in even all cleaned up.


Ah, you did clean up, sorry.
~ Alexander

#18 Sasha Royale

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Posted 09 April 2016 - 00:42

Re-sac-ed and working, I would pay $40 for it.   So, you might have "overpaid" by $10 or $15.   Think of the pleasure you will derive from doing your own work.  Then, there is the restored Waterman, that is YOURS in more ways than one !  Yours to enjoy for years.  

 

$50 is the price of a theater ticket, except you can enjoy the show for only one evening.  

(Plus, you have to wear trousers to the theater. :lticaptd: )


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#19 gamingoodz

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Posted 09 April 2016 - 01:15

Great, well done!

Did you thoroughly clean everything afterwards? Maybe there's still some dried up ink sitting in the way somewhere?

With my own pen, the first half of the feed went in without effort, the second half took some pushing.

I've heard things about rubbing the feed (outside, not the channel) with candlewax or silicone grease, primarily for sealing the feed/section interface. However this might have a lubricating effect too.

Just fantasising though. I'm sure the experts here will be able to tell you if it makes any sense.

 

I can only get it back in about 1/4 of the way before I cant go any further by hand and thats not even far enough to get to the back of the nib yet. 

 

I made a post in the repair section hopefully no one crucifies me for having both threads

 

EDIT: Well I got it back in, with some very careful encouragement from a beating instrument. I had to put just the feed in first and sit the end of it on something soft and tap the back of the section to get the feed in and then I had to put the nib in afterwards carefully and not easily. 


Edited by gamingoodz, 09 April 2016 - 02:49.

The first step toward change is awareness. The second step is acceptance.

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#20 Rednaxela

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Posted 09 April 2016 - 06:49

Cool!
~ Alexander





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