How Much Does Ink Affect Performance?

[pensive_ink]

I recently purchased a couple of premium Pilot pens and frankly I’ll a little dismayed by the flow. One of the pens is the 823 F, and the other is a Custom 74 M.

 

My question is this:

 

I’m used to mainly black inks, such as Noodlers Black. I use that stuff almost exclusively. However when I got these new pens I went straight into some of my ink samples to have a little fun. Different colors across different brands.

 

But as I mentioned, I’m not impressed with the flow. Skipping lines and dry starts, mainly.

 

Assuming I’m using quality fountain pen inks, does the ink make THAT much of a difference in the flow of the nib?

 

I realize there are various things that affect flow as there are lots of mechanics at play. However I’m also wondering if I can improve my experience simply by switching inks.

 

Thanks for any tips.

[Pentode]

In my (admittedly limited) experience, some pens are a lot fussier about ink than others.

 

I used Pelikan 4001 Brilliant Black as my ink of choice for a long time in the eighties and nineties and it worked well in all of my pens except my Watermans. My two lower-priced Waterman pens hated that ink but wrote just fine with other inks such as Mont Blank black, Waterman blue or black and Pelikan Green. I suppose I could have had somebody work the feeds on them to get them to cooperate with the 4001, but they were inexpensive pens, life is short and they wrote just fine with other ink.

 

I've run into a couple other pens that seemed to have ink preferences, but never ones as picky as those two Watermans.

 

Interestingly, I've acquired a couple of other Watermans since then that aren't as picky about ink as those, but I don't use the 4001 as much anymore so I'm not sure it's a fair comparison.

[gregamckinney]

Different inks in different pens don't always impact performance, but they definitely can- and significantly. (This, even among "quality" inks, even within the same brand.)

 

So your experience is not necessarily a shock to me.

 

I have pens I generally use one or two particular inks in because I find that those combinations tend to work best. I have other pens that have no preferences at all. It is a funny (pen) world.

 

Best Regards, greg

 

(edited for spelling)

Edited February 1, 2016 by gregamckinney

[amberleadavis]

I confess, my pilot pens always seem a little dry to me. The rest of the world loves them. I just prefer really wet writing pens. If you are really disappointed, you can have them adjusted. Before you do that, first try a known wet ink. I think you'll find the Pilot / Iroshizuku inks are generally wet and formulated to work well in the Pilot pens. If you aren't happy, though, Pilot has great customer service.

[pensive_ink]

Thank you for all the replies. I have several black inks to choose from so I'll flush each pen and try a few different ones out. Glad to know that maybe it's just the ink (still a little frustrating, but such is life).

 

amberleadavis: In fact I have some Iroshizuku that I got specifically for my 823. That's what I loaded it with initially and it wrote a bit nicer than the other sample inks I tried after that. So, perhaps I should stick to the tried and true!

[deacondavid]

Ink can make a huge difference.

 

An example from personal experience - I have a friend who has a Sailor 1911 Large with the 21k version of the Extra Fine and find it to be one of the best stock nibs I have found - smooth as can be. I found someone selling a 1911 Standard with a 14k Extra Fine nib, so I bought it. I inked it with De Atramentis Pine Green and found a very different experience from my friend's pen. Extremely toothy - way too much for the difference between a 14k and a 21k nib to explain. I examined the nib and feed, but found no obvious issues with tine alignment. I had pretty much set the pen in the "lessons learned about buying in haste" pile when I found out that my friend was using Sailor Kiwa-Guro in his 1911 exclusively. I got small sample from him and found the pen transformed. It writes like a gem. I've had similar experiences with a Pilot Prera and some other pens.

 

This was a long way of illustrating my point. Some inks are well-lubricated and can actually make a pen write smoother. If your nib tends to be a dry writer, look to something that is lubricated - the Noodler's Eel and Polar inks, Pilot Iroshizuku, Sailor Kiwa-Guro, etc.

 

Good luck!

Edited February 1, 2016 by deacondavid

[haruka337]

Ink, paper, pen and user are all factors, but as Amber said, Pilots are not wet writers. Though, the brand is certainly not on the far end of the dry/low-flow spectrum, you may be happier pairing it with wetter inks or more lubricating inks. I recommend using a Sailor ink. Keep away from dry inks.

[pensive_ink]

Yes, this perfectly describes my feeling after buying these two pens recently. But again, with everyone's replies I'm feeling more confident about trying different inks to get better performance.

 

Thanks again!

 

 

I had pretty much set the pen in the "lessons learned about buying in haste" ...

[pensive_ink]

And of course there's another factor: the paper.

 

I rarely use Rhodia pads and that's when I experienced much of the skipping issues.

 

The Rhodia paper is quite nice, very smooth, but in that sense it's almost like writing on a non-porous surface if that makes sense. Almost plasticky, if that's a word.

 

Whereas copy paper or various journals, etc will have large fibers and probably affects how much ink is pulled from the pen. (I always marvel when flushing my pens how much liquid pulls out of a nib simply by barely touching it to a piece of tissue, for example.)

[WilsonCQB1911]

I found that Noodlers Black always ran dry for me and I don't like it because of that. I haven't understood why people like it so much. So I definitely think that ink is part of the problem.

[Sandy1]

Hi,

 

While I most certainly agree that choice of ink+pen combo can determine the appearance of an ink, and some combos dance better together than others, I have found very very few ink+pen combos have gross performance issues, such as skipping.

 

So long as the nib is well tuned and the nib+feed set-up is fine, then it should be fair sailing.

 

For sussing-out a new pen, I suggest using a simple aniline dye ink with some shading potential, such as Pelikan 4001 Royal Blue or Waterman Serenity or Sheaffer Skrip Blue. Differences in flow will be evident according to the Value (light-dark) of the line, which Black ink will not reveal - unless it flickers out. Drawing A4-size contiguous line spirals (oval, rectangular and triangular) will reveal the shape of the nib, tine alignment and whether the flow is even in all directions; and will let you know just where the heart of the nib's sweet spot is, so that you may adjust your grip, where to grasp the pen and the pen's posture (angle to the page).

 

It may be the case that your pens would benefit from a thorough cleansing.

 

Let us know how it goes.

 

Bye,

S1

Edited February 1, 2016 by Sandy1

[amberleadavis]

I defer to Sandy1. I would say that I test with a known ink but I load with whatever catches my eye. If the combo doesn't work, I switch inks. On ink 3, the pen gets adjusted.

[pensive_ink]

I think my course of action tonight will be:

 

1) Flush both pens

2) For the 823, I'll use some of the ink that it came with (Pilot 'regular' blue)

3) For the 74, I'll use some of my Pilot Iroshizuku Take-Sumi

 

I'll let those flow for a couple of days, and I'll try a few different papers to see if I notice an improvement.

 

If I see no noticeable difference, then I'll look into some nib adjusting. That's a world I have not explored but I guess this might be the time.

 

In particular I'd like my 823 F to be juicier. Whenever I switch to my Platinum 3776 F I yearn for my 823 to perform the same way. (My 3776 is an amazing writer --starts perfectly, wet-but-not-too-wet line and a nice fine width.)

[Sandy1]

I think my course of action tonight will be:

 

1) Flush both pens

2) For the 823, I'll use some of the ink that it came with (Pilot 'regular' blue)

3) For the 74, I'll use some of my Pilot Iroshizuku Take-Sumi

 

I'll let those flow for a couple of days, and I'll try a few different papers to see if I notice an improvement.

 

If I see no noticeable difference, then I'll look into some nib adjusting. That's a world I have not explored but I guess this might be the time.

 

In particular I'd like my 823 F to be juicier. Whenever I switch to my Platinum 3776 F I yearn for my 823 to perform the same way. (My 3776 is an amazing writer --starts perfectly, wet-but-not-too-wet line and a nice fine width.)

 

 

+1

[ink-syringe]

That thing were the pen manufacturer says you should only use their inks is bunk. They are just trying to sell you ink.

 

EXCEPT FOR PILOT.

 

If you know me you know that I love Pilot. You also might know that with 2 exceptions I DO NOT care for Iroshizuku inks (I have 9 of them. MEH City.)

 

Longs story short: I sold a bunch of pens and replaced them with 3 Pilots (912 SU, 912 SM, C74 SFM). They were awful. Dry. Railroading, hard starts. ugh. I tried Sailor Sky High, Sailor Tokiwa Matsu, Sailor Ultra Marine, Diamine Regency, Diamine Blue Velvet, Platinum, MB, and a few other inks. I tried cleaning, soaking, you name it. The pens wrote but they all acted like they had baby's bottom, you know where you start a line and the ink doesn't actually start flowing till a few MM down the stroke. Annoying.

 

Then I just decided to clean them all out again and put Pilot Blue, Blue-Black, and Iroshizuku Asa-gao in them. All work great now. The stub is still awkward but that is because the nib is cut too sharp.

 

Really odd. The inks I tried were all pretty darned free flowing inks but none compared to the Pilot inks in terms of performance. A really striking difference. I would not have belived it if I had not seen it with my own to eyeballs on 3 brand new Pilot pens bought from big stores in Japan.

 

Turns out that Pilot ink is shockingly cheap in Japan. I bought 3 bottles so I'll just be filling my Pilot pens with Pilot ink now. The performance with Asagao is the best so far. Outstanding really. Diamine Blue Velvet was the worst. I had to prime the feed every page and priming the feed with a Con70 sucks.

Edited February 2, 2016 by ink-syringe

[pensive_ink]

Interesting insight; normally I assume pen manufacturers are just trying to get a few bucks more by selling ink.

 

So this evening I've flushed both of my pens and filled them up with Pilot brand ink. As I mentioned a few posts up, I went with Iroshizuku Take-Sumi for my 74 M, and the stock Pilot blue for the 823 (that it came with).

 

The results are promising, especially with the 823. That was the bigger culprit as it's a very fine nib. Both are performing pretty well on both some Clairefontaine stationary and my Leutchtturm 1917 notebook. Those two surfaces are pretty different so I think that's a good test.

 

The 74 medium is actually too broad for my tastes, but that's another issue. (I read after I received it that the M is more of a German-medium as opposed to a Japanese-medium. Oh well.)

 

Thanks again everyone for the replies and ideas.

 

 

That thing were the pen manufacturer says you should only use their inks is bunk. They are just trying to sell you ink.

 

EXCEPT FOR PILOT.

 

[Sandy1]

Interesting insight; normally I assume pen manufacturers are just trying to get a few bucks more by selling ink.

 

So this evening I've flushed both of my pens and filled them up with Pilot brand ink. As I mentioned a few posts up, I went with Iroshizuku Take-Sumi for my 74 M, and the stock Pilot blue for the 823 (that it came with).

 

The results are promising, especially with the 823. That was the bigger culprit as it's a very fine nib. Both are performing pretty well on both some Clairefontaine stationary and my Leutchtturm 1917 notebook. Those two surfaces are pretty different so I think that's a good test.

 

The 74 medium is actually too broad for my tastes, but that's another issue. (I read after I received it that the M is more of a German-medium as opposed to a Japanese-medium. Oh well.)

 

Thanks again everyone for the replies and ideas.

 

 

 

 

Hi,

 

You're welcome.

 

Sometimes pens are a bit slow to be roused from their slumber, especially those with ebonite feeds, so using them on a daily basis for a few days will reveal their true character, which is one reason to delay / avoid adjusting the flow.

 

Our friends at Classic Fountain Pens have graciously provided a table of Tipping Sizes. Be sure to read the information above the table - tipping size is not the same as line width. http://nibs.com/TippingSizespage.htm

 

In my hand the very narrow nibs need to be run with a very light hand to avoid scratchiness due to tine spread; and the nib digging into the paper. One is merely tinting the surface of the paper, not ploughing a furrow.

 

Enjoy!

 

Bye,

S1

[pensive_ink]

Yes, and frankly in conjunction with using the stock Pilot ink, I also think I just did so much 'writing' (while testing the pen, drawing circles, etc.) that I probably broke in the nib a bit. The pen is less than a week old after all.

 

And I became very acquainted with nibs.com and their 'nib tuning' section. I stopped my self just short of pulling out my 12000 grit paper. I figured I should sleep on it rather than potentially messing up a nice ($$) nib. Glad I didn't get too overzealous.

 

Right now I'm pretty pleased with the 823. It writes nicely with my somewhat heavy hand. Nice bit of flex. My only complaint is I really don't care that much for blue ink, and so I'll be soon purchasing a bottle of the official Pilot black ink (or maybe I'll go back to my Iroshizuku Take-Sumi. Now that the pen is a bit broken in perhaps the Iroshizuku Take-Sumi will perform better than it did the first time around.)

 

 

 

...

 

Sometimes pens are a bit slow to be roused from their slumber, especially those with ebonite feeds, so using them on a daily basis for a few days will reveal their true character, which is one reason to delay / avoid adjusting the flow.

 

Our friends at Classic Fountain Pens have graciously provided a table of Tipping Sizes. Be sure to read the information above the table - tipping size is not the same as line width. http://nibs.com/TippingSizespage.htm

 

...

Edited February 2, 2016 by pensive_ink

[lapis]

To reboot an old saying here, just load and write any pen (especially but not necessarily brand new pen, or a pen which is new to you) with Waterman's Florida Blue (today called Serenity Blue) and if it doesn't write flawlwssly then it's the pen, not the ink. That ink isn't a fantastic ink as re colour and shading etc but it is as far as "behaviour" is concernerd

Of course, it wouldn't hurt to completely wash and rinse the pen and its piston and insides or converter's insides with a dilute dishwater solution and then plain, better distillled water and then let dry overnight. That ought to do the trick. It has to do the trick or you need a new pen (and/or nib)....

 

Mike

[pensive_ink]

Ok, so then my next question is: what are the notoriously best flowing inks? Lubricated inks such as Noodler's eel, for example?

 

I know some don't like certain ink properties because they flow too wet; but at the same time that's a benefit for those at the other side of the spectrum who need more flow.