Why Are Expensive Pens So Badly Made?

[AndyKeir]

 

... I'd be very curious to get a good look at the surface of the nib that pulls ink up onto the top face of the nib by virtue of some flaws on the surface ...

 

Actually more imperfections around the breather/slit than imperfections on the surface.

As I said, I'm no expert ... but I did study the sciences rather than the arts

If creep can be influenced by doing something to the nib but not to the ink then what is the cause?

If creep can be influenced by doing something with the ink but not the nib then what is the cause?

Both have been demonstrated with acceptable repeatability but I'm not sure either can be shown to be the primary factor in all cases.

 

Anyway, this is perhaps a discussion for another thread as this has gone a long way off-topic.

My apologies to the OP.

[JonSzanto]

Actually more imperfections around the breather/slit than imperfections on the surface.

As I said, I'm no expert ... but I did study the sciences rather than the arts

 

You know, I'm going to hand it to you: you got me thinking. Certainly made me be a bit introspective, and pose the usual questions like "just who the hell made YOU the pen expert?" And so I went and spent an hour or so reading and researching and the bottom line is that I am more than willing, at this moment, to admit that there may be not a little, but a lot of culpability in the nib's manufacture that can lead to nib creep. Maybe I haven't seen it, but others certainly seem to have observed it, and I've been too ignorant of that fact.

 

So, Andy, thanks. I hope, in what time I have left in this realm, that I'm never above admitting error or fault. And that I'll always be open to learning new things. Like micro-flaws causing capillary draws on ink.

[Orpilorp]

vonManstein, thanks for your initial post. Your inquiry is valid. Also I want to express my disappointment in some of the replies which have been posted, one in particular. For someone to imply you have a mental illness (OCD) and lack of experience shows a level of rudeness that is difficult for me to accept quietly. Although you certainly do not have a lack of experience, you may, like myself, not have the breadth of experience enjoyed by others within this community.

 

My experience may be similar to yours. It began with Pilots then moved to Lamys. Both manufacturers' quality was similar to one another, and I mistakenly presumed their level of quality was the industry norm, and that tinted my view of other pen companies. Then I acquired a series of more expensive pens from multiple makers. I initially thought their QC was really bad, but then I realized that each pen company has set their own standard (which they certainly have the right to do).

 

Much like you, I was very frustrated by these inconsistencies until I saw that the problem was that many manufacturers weren't meeting MY standards in areas such as nib work and ink flow. To compensate for this I have switched to vintage pens and have not bought a new pen in years. Now when I buy an older pen I tweak it to my standards or if need be I pay someone to tweak it to my standards, and then viola! I have the perfect pen. Well, at least a pen with which I'm happy.

 

At this point if you were to pick up one of my pens you might not like the ink flow and you might presume the old time manufacturer had bad QC, and so the game goes on and on.

 

We should all understand that many pens will need adjustments, whether they be new or old, because that's their nature. Fountain pens may sometimes be frustrating, but they still beat the alternatives.

Edited January 15, 2016 by Orpilorp

[JonSzanto]

Also I want to express my disappointment in some of the replies which have been posted, one in particular. For someone to imply you have a mental illness (OCD) and lack of experience shows a level of rudeness that is difficult for me to accept quietly.

 

Now when I buy an older pen I tweak it to my standards or if need be I pay someone to tweak it to my standards, and then viola! I have the perfect pen. Well, at least a pen with which I'm happy.

 

1. It is hardly rude to suggest a level of inexperience, as it bears directly on the statistical nature of their own survey. It is merely an observation.

2. I believe you meant voila!, unless you had an interest in playing the least favorite instrument in a string quartet.

 

It is one thing to question why an expensive, maybe bespoke, pen does not perform to a certain standard. It is another thing entirely to imply that all expensive pens are poorly constructed and assembled.

[WireFox]

Wait... what?!

Can you please give me an example of a more simple piece of everyday technology, nay - even obsolete technology!?!

 

 

Try making one yourself from scratch to the tolerances required by the feed and the nib in order that it functions flawlessly. I really do not understand your point. I did not say technology I said engineering and obsolescence is irrelevant. And yes I am an engineer and have been these last 35 years. Nothing is 'simple' in production engineering

[Bluey]

I think the nature of the product offering changes as the price goes up.

 

An inexpensive pen must write well to succeed--its only function is to write. So manufacturers design inexpensive pens to come off the manufacturing line writing well.

 

A moderate-priced pen is likely going to an enthusiast Experience has taught manufacturers that enthusiasts will accept a pen that doesn't write, so long as it is interesting and attractive, and a combination of adjustment and exchange will fix it. They don't have the volumes to build precision into the manufacturing process or the margins to hand-test each individual pen, so they let the buyer do the inspection.

 

Really expensive pens are more often than not going to collectors who would be appalled at the thought of ink touching them. And if by chance the buyer actually wants to write with the pen, they have so much sunk cost by the time they find the pen to be a poor writer that they will put up with nearly anything, even sending the pen to a nibmeister, to get it writing again. There is no reason for the manufacturer to care about writing qualities.

 

As the OP suggests, it seems that a company with strong experience in low-priced pens is likely to have a more conscientious attitude toward the writing qualities of their expensive pens as well. Perhaps this is why you see a cult following for some high-end pens (such as Namiki or Nakaya) among users.

ron

 

You've hit the nail on the head here. It's very likely that the focus on expensive brands is not on how well they write but on how well they look and the prestige that is attributed to their brand name. Being a good writer for an expensive pen is an added bonus but not important because of the nature of fountain pens as being luxury.

 

Explains why most of my cheaper pens write a whole lot better than many of my more expensive ones.

 

 

[pajaro]

 

Thanks, but I need to correct you on your statement "nib creep is more a function of the ink." It could be misleading if it would let people believe that ink is causing the nib creep.

Although there is correlation between some inks and nib creep there is no causation.

Nib creep is caused by minor imperfection (or microscopic damage) in the cutting of the nib tines.

My Lamy 27 and M400 will have ink creep with Iroshizuku take-sumi but not with Quink. So I can see how it could let someone believe that ink is causing the ink creep. But Correlation is not causation. Most people who fall asleep with their shoes on, wake up with a headache. There is clear correlation. But there is no causation, it is not the shoes causing the headache.

You are incorrect.

[Bo Bo Olson]

Nib creep is fault of your ink...like Diamine Ancient Copper is world renown for that. Some Noodler's inks are also creeping inks.

What ink were you using?

 

2. Misaligned tines are nothing new, found in most brands.

If you have a 10-12X loup and you should, you could have fixed it in 30 seconds. It don't take much to knock a nib out of alignment.

From the breather hole push the up tine down below the level of the other tine, 3-4 seconds, three or four times....should check with you loupe in between.

 

Happens often, even with Lamy. Go to the Lamy sub section, you will find it too.

 

I did a tour of the Lamy factory...won a newspaper 'contest' to do so. They had a little old lady realigning Safari type nibs. They were tested on a big rotating drum of paper by sound. Those that didn't sound right were kicked out to the lady to tune up.

[willow92]

I wanted to reply to this thread once i saw it but others have put my thoughts down better than i could do.

I will just add some notes from my point of view.

 

Made well and expensive have far to many variables to make such broad statements.

 

"well made" will mean different things to different people as will the term expensive.

 

You may think expensive or well made gives reference to the durability that an item should have whereas others may feel that the item should be "good fashion"

 

 

I will note some personal examples of products i use.

 

Saddle back leather because they last a long time vs the designer bags that lasted me a year, both the same prices and i prefer the saddleback but i am sure a lot of people would go for the looks of the designer bag.

 

Redwing shoes because they last twice as long in my experience compared to the name brand shoes i used before.

 

 

For me pens are rated

 

Around $100 inexpensive

$200-400 mid priced

$600-1200 expensive

 

$1500+ out of my league

 

 

My inexpensive pens have had minor problems but are well suited to their purpose of note taking and such.

 

My more pricey pens are used everyday because they feel good, write well, are durable, have soul and some of the more used ones have sentimental value.

 

I have a Namiki Nippon which is beautiful and i use it at home but i consider it far to delicate to be in my bag, on the desk and heavily used.

However my Tolstoy is far more expensive but is a work horse, it will age well in my opinion and it goes everywhere.

 

I do personally feel that our so called expensive pens are for the most part smoother writers, better craftsmanship, better materials, more personality to the product ect.

[Orpilorp]

1. JonSzanto wrote, "It is hardly rude to suggest a level of inexperience... "

 

The original question was, "... why I am spending hundreds on dollars on fountain pens when I can get a better fountain pen for $10." And the reply was (in part), "Your personal bad luck, some OCD and a lack of experience."

 

That terse statement was not a suggestion of a "level of inexperience" but it presented an actual lack of experience as factual, and so it was false because the OP had demonstrated he did have experience purchasing expensive pens.

 

The OP had politely asked a somewhat rhetorical question and he received a flippant reply which was not intellectually instructive but was deliberately discourteous, particularly with that OCD remark. I hope the person who wrote that line would chirp in to clarify why he wrote his remarks in such a manner, so neither you nor I misinterpret his intentions.

 

2. Ya got me on that typo. I appreciate the correction. Autocorrect is my worst enema.

Edited January 16, 2016 by Orpilorp

[KKay]

I bought a 33 dollar Pilot pen, and it has performed flawlessly. Next I went for looks, and something much pricier. It needed to be tuned, once that was done, it has performed very well. The third pen was more expensive somewhat than pen #2. It has performed flawlessly. I have been lucky so far. If I spent over a hundred bucks, and the pen didn't write well, I'd be ticked. I don't need a real expensive pen, although many are quite lovely. I think the person who made it, or the company, should do right by you, and fix the problem. I can't believe I bought a pen for as much as I did. I am glad I have it, and I love it. But I would not tell non-fountain pen people how much it cost me. No way.

Edited January 16, 2016 by KKay

[DrDebG]

I guess I am interested in this because I can't answer to my self, why I am spending hundreds on dollars on fountain pens when I can get a better fountain pen for $10. I don't have an answer.

I had problems with all my fountain pens that costed more then $150, and I consider them to be expensive (for me).

On Montblanc M a bad case of nib creep.

On Pelikan M600 misaligned tines.

On Visconti Homo Sapiens Lava splayed tines and once that was sorted baby bottom.

On Franklin-Christoph 20 leaking.

 

On the other hand I never had any problem with Lamy Al Star, Safari or Pilot V Pen or Petit1. And these pens cost a fraction of the cost.

So I keep asking myself why am I so stupid to waste money on pens that are a lot of hassle before they write. I guess no one can answer that. The closest explanation to the truth that I have is that I am a sucker for a good marketing story.

 

And the question in the topic interests me. How can Pilot or Platinum have better QC on their disposable pens then Visconti, Montblanc or Pelikan on their "Fine Writing" instruments.

 

Thank you for posting such a controversial topic. I have been reading some of the responses, and it has elicited some polarization among the FPN. Interesting.

 

One question I have for you. You mentioned that you had a leaky Franklin Christoph 20. Have you contacted F-C and discussed the issue with them? The reason why I ask is that I have an F-C Panther 40 that has performed flawlessly and wonderfully to date. I also thought that F-C fountain pens had a lifetime warranty. I guess I am naive, but I would be concerned about F-C if their long term care is less than expected. Yes, it does take some time to try and run down the right person within any company to addresses issues of QC. Perhaps if more of us responded to what we view as a lack of QC, then perhaps the manufacturers would respond better.

 

By the way, in my limited experience (I.e. I don't have a huge number of pens), the few pens that would be considered on the expensive side have performed flawlessly for me (for me expensive is over $100). And, my less expensive Chinese pens are a mixed bag. I have some that are great, and some that should be thrown away.

 

But let me also say thank you for posting such a great question. You are getting some great response.

[JonSzanto]

1. JonSzanto wrote, "It is hardly rude to suggest a level of inexperience... "

 

The original question was, "... why I am spending hundreds on dollars on fountain pens when I can get a better fountain pen for $10." And the reply was (in part), "Your personal bad luck, some OCD and a lack of experience." That terse statement was not a suggestion of a "level of inexperience" but it presented an actual lack of experience as factual, and so it was false because the OP had demonstrated he did have experience purchasing expensive pens.

 

Well, look: I read the OP, and for all I can tell, and for all I know, the person has experience with EIGHT pens. And the pens that were singled out as examples of 'egregiously bad manufacture while still being butt-expensive pens' numbered FOUR. At no point did the OP suggest that they had used many pens, both high- and low-end. The original post really came off as someone who had dabbled, had some unfortunate experiences (we don't even know if these were new pens or not), and then chose (unfortunately) a title for a thread that implies that ALL expensive pens are badly made.

 

Forget the other commenter for a second, *I* think the OP appears to lack a broad experience and knowledge of high-end (expensive) fountain pens, and is speaking without a wide enough experience base or knowledge to justify the claim. And, so, yeah, I'll second the "lack of experience". You bet.

 

2. Ya got me on that typo. I appreciate the correction. Autocorrect is my worst enema.

 

I know, it pißes me off, too.

Edited January 16, 2016 by JonSzanto

[Peppers]

From an Engineer's point of view:

 

I hope I don't lose you here, I tried to use layman's terms.

 

Products that are mass produced (in millions), such as the Lamy Safari, will always, have some percent of the total production to be categorized as total loss, completely unusable because they will contain damage caused by the sheer odds of the huge quantities produced.

 

Trying to find out which products are unusable, is mere nonsense. It costs too much time, invaluable time, to figure which ones are the culprits.

When you mass produce, every fraction of a second counts, it is more precious than money itself.

 

So what is the Engineer's solution for that?

 

To have high fidelity manufacturing processes. Such processes, cost way beyond your wildest dreams, but guarantee that the standard deviation of damaged products is as far away as possible from the 1st, 2nd, 3rd , 4th, 5th and in very special cases, even the 6th standard deviation of good products, which is insane engineering (e.i. the 6 or 9 bolts that hold the a Bugatti together, or a life sustaining sensor inside a Nasa spaceship, or an artificial heart valve).

By the time you reach a 6th standard deviation in a manufacturing process, the chances of the product to fail is close to 0.0000001%. Yes, that is a percentage of a number with 6 zeros to the left. That number suggests that the odds to fail or have a damaged product is near impossible. Lamys are not close to 6 standard deviations, but perhaps 3.

 

Basically, they ensure that the duds, are minimized until they can't be minimized anymore if your economy allows.

 

And that is why, your and my Lamy Safari are more reliable than those expensive pens of yours that don't get mass produced by the millions.

 

If I lost you..

In other words, when you mass produce, there is only one way of doing it. Do it to perfection to minimize money loss and maximize revenue.

 

Please don't retort by asking me why one dollar mass produced Chinese products break, we are not talking about that. That is a whole different ball game.

 

As summary,

The trick, is to remove the odds of getting a broken product, this is very complicated engineering and expensive, but it pays off with time. When you produce small quantities, the odds of getting a broken product are very high, just like your pricey pens. Unless your product costs 2 million dollars, just like the Bugatti, which then you can pay for high fidelity manufacturing process for small quantities to be sold. If your pen cost 2 millions dollars, it would be as if it was carved with the hands of gods, perfection.

 

Hope this helped.

[max dog]

While I enjoy my cheaper pens I find my more expensive pens to be better out of the box and better in every way as I go up the price scale so far. My experience has been opposite the OPs assertion here.

[Feanaaro]

This is off-topic perhaps... but are you sure that Lamy Safaris are produced (yearly?) in the millions? As popular as it is, I don't see that many fountain pen users in the world (considering that a single pen may last many years, and most people do not collect every available color etc.)

[recluse]

Somewhat funny thing. When I've read the OP my first reaction after I finished was "well, where are examples of badly made pens?". I had to reread and this is when I realized that for me nib problems (somehow I've presumed that the problem with the FC pen is also nib related, I don't know why) and "badly made" exist in different compartments. The reason for such separation is that the nib is much easier to fix than flaws that make a pen badly made. I cannot fix cross-threads, or bad seal in the cap, or a snap-on cap that no longer grips on the body, or finish peeling off.

 

And then, there's also this particular experience. I don't write with my Pelikan M215 often: it's too short and the threads are bothering me (that I would count as a discussable if not questionable production decision). I don't remember when was the last time I've used it, easily two-two and a half years. Couple of weeks ago I picked it up, filled it, started writing, well, same old, same old. Nothing to write home about. About a week ago, we were going through my wife's pens. Those are mostly Jinhaos, she picked in the spur of the moment. They didn't see ink for about the same two years, she mostly uses her Monteverde. Out of six Jinhaos only one started to write without problems, while the rest hesitated because of the noticeable gap between the nib and the feed, as closer inspection revealed. I didn't give much thought to this before I've seen this thread. That's the difference between well made and no so well made pens. Those Jinhaos are not bad pens, they are just not in the same category with M215.

 

On the other hand.

 

Does it excuse nib problems listed in the OP? Not at all. Well, except maybe the nib creep case. Are these case mere impossible exceptions and incredible luck of the topic starter? I don't think so. Can expensive pens bear production flaws? Certainly. Up to the point that there's the "common knowledge" that you don't expect an impeccable quality from Visconti. Are Safaris statistically better than, say, Homo Sapiens? I don't know. I had Safari and Logo and had to work with nibs on both of them, they were short of unusable out of the box. But after that they worked flawlessly. I still couldn't use them because of their designs.

 

So, honestly I don't see what's the driving force of the heated discussion. Unreasonable generalization? Well, someone paid substantial money for his experience and I think it calls for giving him a slack.

 

And while I cannot agree with the statement about expensive being badly made (in the sense explained above), this discussion once again affirmed me in the conclusion I came to some time ago that there's such thing as too expensive pens, when the expectation of losses due to production flaws makes an unjustifiable dent in the budget. Here we have a good example of that.

[jar]

1. JonSzanto wrote, "It is hardly rude to suggest a level of inexperience... "

 

The original question was, "... why I am spending hundreds on dollars on fountain pens when I can get a better fountain pen for $10." And the reply was (in part), "Your personal bad luck, some OCD and a lack of experience."

 

That terse statement was not a suggestion of a "level of inexperience" but it presented an actual lack of experience as factual, and so it was false because the OP had demonstrated he did have experience purchasing expensive pens.

 

The OP had politely asked a somewhat rhetorical question and he received a flippant reply which was not intellectually instructive but was deliberately discourteous, particularly with that OCD remark. I hope the person who wrote that line would chirp in to clarify why he wrote his remarks in such a manner, so neither you nor I misinterpret his intentions.

 

2. Ya got me on that typo. I appreciate the correction. Autocorrect is my worst enema.

Sorry but I see absolutely nothing insulting or even rude in the statement. The OP mentioned "nib creep" as an example of a poorly made pen. In fact not one of the things he mentioned are examples of poorly made pens. Further, the OP said that he had had problems with ALL of his pens costing over $150.00.

 

 

I had problems with all my fountain pens that costed more then $150, and I consider them to be expensive (for me).

 

Since he then listed only four pens where only one of the issues MIGHT be directly attributable to the pen being poorly made, assuming inexperience and an overly picky nature seem very reasonable.

[Hospitalier]

Try making one yourself from scratch to the tolerances required by the feed and the nib in order that it functions flawlessly. I really do not understand your point. I did not say technology I said engineering and obsolescence is irrelevant. And yes I am an engineer and have been these last 35 years. Nothing is 'simple' in production engineering

 

Ok, so you're an engineer; are you more a Leonardo or Dilbert?

 

It's all relative; as a gunsmith, a side by side or over and under shotgun is significantly more simple a piece of engineering than a semi-automatic shotgun, and a bolt action rifle is a more complicated piece of 'engineering' than a non-auto shotgun.

 

Original Poster was talking about expensive pens, so we're not talking about a one man show hand turning pens and if we were the same expectation of flawless quality would apply. It wouldn't be reasonable to expect anything less than flawless operation in a pen costing 10 to 200 times more that an arguably reliable Chinese pen costing $0.99.

 

I agree with you that nibs and feeds are the more delicate and sensitive parts of a pen's operation.

[Peppers]

It wouldn't be reasonable to expect anything less than flawless operation in a pen costing 10 to 200 times more that an arguably reliable Chinese pen costing $0.99.

 

Excuse me.. But, high price is not always qualitative to high quality.

More often than not, the price of a product is just inflated by the brand name they print on its front.

A lot of products today are they same crappy quality, made by the same manufacturing companies but simply labeled differently, so one would be cheap and they other very expensive simply because they put certain brand name in there.