Ethical Question- Return To Name On Pens ?

[Laura N]

Ah, problem solvers. There are ways you can learn about somebody other than being a gadfly. Most people I know wouldn't want to be bothered. I believe you should leave well enough alone.

 

I agree. I think many people would be unhappy, perhaps even concerned, if a perfect stranger tracked them down through the name of a relative and made contact, out of nowhere, about buying something that supposedly had belonged to the deceased relative.

[Runnin_Ute]

I don't think I would personally. I currently only have one pen with a person's name. I imagine there are more than one person with that name in the world. I might feel differently if I know the provenance of the pen. But this is a Parker 45. Not a Mont Blanc.....

[inkstainedruth]

I understand that the OP has the best of intentions. But I doubt that the heirs would really care unless they were pen collectors themselves.

I only have a couple of pens that have engraving. One is a Wearever that I was given at an antiques fair (the dealer who had it said he couldn't sell it). Looked up the name and as best I can tell, it was from a jewelry store in Canonsburg, PA (now long gone, and the site of an antiques mall, as it happens). The other is the Red Shadow Wave that I bought at the PCA auction at DCSS this year. I suspect that even if I could, trying to track down the original owner would be a waste of time (the name is fairly generic).

I *do* also have the cap from my my mother-in-law's Eversharp Skyline. That's a different matter. If the pen ever turns up, I would try to keep it in the family (the way I want to do with the Sheaffer Balance Oversize that might have been her father's pen; I've been able to get a replacement cap for the pen, but still need to get it restored). But if none of the grandkids want either pen or cap, I understand....

Although I do wish I still had whatever it was that had been my grandfather's. It was, IIRC, some sort of combo (I remember trying to refill the pencil part through the lever, but in my defense neither of my parents used FPs at that point; and I was only seven or eight...). That would have been nice for sentimental reasons, if nothing else, but of course it's long gone.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[jcm499]

Here we get into some interesting law vs. ethics, that will vary between countries.

 

In the US, if the item was stolen, possession of stolen goods is a crime, even if you purchased it not knowing that it was stolen.

That you purchased the item "in good faith" is irrelevant to the law. People seem to constantly get what they think makes sense and should be vs. what the law states. Because in the case of stolen property, the original victim is still a victim, and the only way to make it right is to return the goods to the original victim.

IOW, the item will go back to the original owner, and you loose whatever you paid for it.

The subsequent purchasers could file a civil or criminal action against the person that sold the stolen item to him, to try to recover his money, less the legal costs. But he needs to consult his attorney about the specifics, and if it makes $$ sense, considering the additional legal costs.

 

What will the decendents say, that it was stolen, or that it was sold or lost? I think that the theft needs to be reported and recorded on police records to be booked as stolen. If not reported as stolen within a reasonable amount of time after the theft, a generation or two later, I don't know how the courts will rule if the item was stolen or not. I think there is a stature of limitations for reporting theft.

 

Personally, I view pens in the used market as having gotten there from estate/yard sales and similar methods of disposal. Which given the migration from fountain pen to ball pen, found the fountain pen to be inferior to the ball pen for the average person in daily use. My father had 2 fountain pen which I NEVER saw him use, he only used ball pens and pencils. I found the fountain pens buried in the back of his desk. And they were subsequently lost :-(

 

As northstar said, I would love to get back my father's fountain pens. But I do not think they were engraved. And most people would probably think it was old junk, compared to a ball pen.

 

So it will be your call as to what you want to do.

 

PS, all decisions based on legal issues should be discussed with an attorney, as laws vary between legal jurisdictions.

 

Can you cite this for me? As far as I know, this is not even remotely true. An innocent party who purchases personal property without notice of another party's title claim to that property becomes a bona fide purchaser for value, and takes valid title despite the competing claim even if the delivery was procured through fraud. The victim's claim is good against the person who stole the pen, not against the person who innocently bought it. The pen will likely not go back to the original owner-- specific performance is rarely granted outside of real property-- but the original owner can recover its value from the person who stole and then sold it. Please see UCC section 2-403(1). I'm not anyone's lawyer, don't take this as legal advice.

 

Edit: Something else I neglected to address previously, but has been eating at me, is your contention that possession of stolen goods is a crime even if you don’t know the goods are stolen. This is also not true—and I can’t imagine how nervous you are every time you buy something, believing that it is! Each crime, except a very few statutorily exempted, has two components: the actus reus (the criminal act) and the mens rea (“the thing that is mental,” maybe best interpreted as criminal intent.) In other words, to be guilty of a crime, the government must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you had the requisite state of mind with respect to committing the crime. According to the Model Penal Code (MPC), to be guilty of receipt of stolen property (the receipt, not the possession, is the crime) you must “purposely” receive the property and “know” or “believe that it has probably been stolen.” Please see MPC section 223.6. The same disclaimers apply.

Edited November 26, 2015 by jcm499

[Manalto]

I find it ironic that the same people who state here, with utter confidence, that the families associated with the pens in question would be indifferent or even creeped out by someone who approached them with the idea of reunification, also lament the loss of their own mementos and long for their return.

[Greenie]

Considering that most of these pens seems to come from estate sales (where the heirs wanted to sell the items and not keep them), and at my mother's retirement community she asks everyone about fountain pens (for me ) and they all say that they threw them away years ago.... The item's value seems to go up due to its loss, and the value is minimal to the original owner or first heirs.

 

Now the thread moves on from ethics to the law to human psychology.

[Manalto]

Why would anyone assume that an entire family would be in agreement (or even aware) regarding the sale of all items in an estate sale, when families are notoriously unable to reach a consensus, not to mention frequently dispersed geographically with no option to weigh in on the decision?

[inkstainedruth]

Why would anyone assume that an entire family would be in agreement (or even aware) regarding the sale of all items in an estate sale, when families are notoriously unable to reach a consensus, not to mention frequently dispersed geographically with no option to weigh in on the decision?

Too true. When we bought our current house, it was an estate sale. The previous owner was in his 90s when he died, and one of his sons was living in the house (ostensibly to take care of him). We're pretty sure that "Sonny's" game plan was to just continue living in the house -- padlock on his bedroom door and all.... But it's also pretty clear the *other* heirs wanted the house sold, so they could get their cut.

The guy didn't even show up for the closing (at which the estate attorney flat out told us "Don't believe *anything* he told you..."). Ironically, the disclosure form (i.e., as to condition) when we first looked at the house was filled out by the estate attorney; it LITERALLY said "I'm not allowed to disclose anything" and signed by the estate attorney. If we had walked away, though, after the inspection, they would have had to disclose what the inspector found (the inspector was a personal friend with a P.E.'s license; his report was four pages, single spaced; and included the statement "Do NOT sleep under this roof until the house has been rewired...."

I just picked up a Parker 41 at an estate sale a couple of months ago. For 50 cents. When they finally air the segment of the local appraisal show, and see me doing a "man on the street" interview about it and the $12 Lucky Curve, the estate sale people will be spitting nails.... Especially when they see the appraisal value of those two pens.... It was in a shoebox full of mostly pencils and BPs, and something made me keep digging through the box ($5 for the entire contents of the box, but what am I gonna do with a bunch of ballpoint pens...?).

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[ac12]

I am NOT an attorney. What I said/say is based on what I read, remember and researched.

All is subject to jurisdiction and changes over time.

 

Possession of stolen property depends on local criminal statutes and case law also, not entirely on the UCC.

Some jurisdictions are lax compared to others in the definition of "possession."

So seems to be the definition of passing of valid title.

 

As you say, some statues say you (an individual) are innocent if you did not know it was stolen. But you are guilty if you do know or have a reasonable suspicion that it may be stolen, or subsequently learned such. Sale price vs. value is a ruler, but this becomes difficult today as most people have no idea what a pen is worth (well maybe not a MB), so getting the pen at a fantastic deal is not necessarily reason for suspicion. One sees this at estate and yard/garage sales.

 

If you are a dealer (antique, flea market, pawn shop, etc.) where you have a chance of buying stolen property, you have to do due diligence in trying to determine that the property is not stolen. But without serial numbers it would be hard to do, but can also be based on the behavior of the person trying to sell the item to the dealer.

 

I also don't think that the legal system has been able to handle the used market. I recall reading several police department regularly patrolling the flea markets for stolen goods. But without serial number to trace or etched names, it becomes difficult to do much. And as with pens, when a person dies, and the estate sells the property, those etched items are legally sold. Are the tools at a flea market legally acquired by the seller or are they stolen? Personally, I avoid etched tools at flea markets for this very reason.

 

I don't have the references that I looked up. There was an example of a situation where the police did not have sufficient evidence to convict a person of the theft, but was able to convict based on possession. But they probably used the "knowledge that the item was stolen," to convict on possession.

 

Suffice to say that as you can see, this gets to be a rather complicated discussion, that bottom line will need discussion with a LOCAL attorney.

Edited November 26, 2015 by ac12

[pajaro]

This is a ridiculous issue. Pens with a prior user's name on them have been in commerce for decades. Today if you track down the prior user or family members you are likely to scare the hell out of them. They will immediately suspect foul play and might make a 9-1-1 call. This is so overthought you would deserve it. These pens are in commerce and you should let it go. People have a right to their privacy. Go maintain your pens.

[Greenie]

We need to haul in OCArt the OP for a spanking for stirring up this tempest in a teapot.

[Parker51]

I for one would be happy if I was contacted by someone who had one of my ancestors Fountain Pens. And so, if anyone has the Fountain Pen of Henry Pearce, please let me know. I have the Fountain Pens of my other grandfather and my father.

[jcm499]

I am NOT an attorney. What I said/say is based on what I read, remember and researched.

All is subject to jurisdiction and changes over time.

 

Possession of stolen property depends on local criminal statutes and case law also, not entirely on the UCC.

Some jurisdictions are lax compared to others in the definition of "possession."

So seems to be the definition of passing of valid title.

 

As you say, some statues say you (an individual) are innocent if you did not know it was stolen. But you are guilty if you do know or have a reasonable suspicion that it may be stolen, or subsequently learned such. Sale price vs. value is a ruler, but this becomes difficult today as most people have no idea what a pen is worth (well maybe not a MB), so getting the pen at a fantastic deal is not necessarily reason for suspicion. One sees this at estate and yard/garage sales.

 

If you are a dealer (antique, flea market, pawn shop, etc.) where you have a chance of buying stolen property, you have to do due diligence in trying to determine that the property is not stolen. But without serial numbers it would be hard to do, but can also be based on the behavior of the person trying to sell the item to the dealer.

 

I also don't think that the legal system has been able to handle the used market. I recall reading several police department regularly patrolling the flea markets for stolen goods. But without serial number to trace or etched names, it becomes difficult to do much. And as with pens, when a person dies, and the estate sells the property, those etched items are legally sold. Are the tools at a flea market legally acquired by the seller or are they stolen? Personally, I avoid etched tools at flea markets for this very reason.

 

I don't have the references that I looked up. There was an example of a situation where the police did not have sufficient evidence to convict a person of the theft, but was able to convict based on possession. But they probably used the "knowledge that the item was stolen," to convict on possession.

 

Suffice to say that as you can see, this gets to be a rather complicated discussion, that bottom line will need discussion with a LOCAL attorney.

 

Interpretation can be difficult on the internet, so I want to make clear that nothing I say is intended as an attack on you personally. I have no personal identity at stake in an argument about this, and if you provide reliable and accurate citing references I will gladly change my mind, but until then I must insist that what you “read, remember and researched” is not accurate information. Again, interpretation can be difficult on the internet, but I am concerned by the confidence with which you make your unreferenced statements, despite your disclaimer that you are not an attorney. The language of the law is precise, and you are confusing several different standards; for example, your “reasonable suspicion that it may be stolen” means something very different from “a belief that it is probably stolen,” which again means something very different from “knowledge that it is stolen.”

 

Because this is a pen forum, and a discussion ultimately about something else, this is not the right place for an extensive discussion of the issue. However, if you or any other readers are interested, here is a law review article elaborating it:

 

http://www.law.newark.rutgers.edu/files/u/Thieving%20and%20Receiving.pdf

 

Nonetheless, I must not leave one very crucial piece unsaid: thankfully, the police cannot convict anyone of anything. Only a jury of your peers can do that.

[Ink Stained Wretch]

I say, the heirs are probably the ones who sold the fountain pen in the first place. Don't worry about it, live your life .

[pajaro]

Posh, tosh and gibberish. All of it, especially the overscrupulous OP.

[Manalto]

Others may think it but it takes a special (or other seven-letter word) person to say it.

[cptdean]

This is a ridiculous issue. Pens with a prior user's name on them have been in commerce for decades. Today if you track down the prior user or family members you are likely to scare the hell out of them. They will immediately suspect foul play and might make a 9-1-1 call. This is so overthought you would deserve it. These pens are in commerce and you should let it go. People have a right to their privacy. Go maintain your pens.

 

I just started here, so I don't know you yet, bur are all of your 7,415 posts so acerbic?

[Orpilorp]

 

Here we get into some interesting law vs. ethics, that will vary between countries.

 

In the US, if the item was stolen, possession of stolen goods is a crime, even if you purchased it not knowing that it was stolen. That you purchased the item "in good faith" is irrelevant to the law."

 

... unless you own a pawn shop.

 

After a friend's home was burglarized and police reports/insurance claims were filed, some of the items were found for sale at such a pawn shop. The friend was able to prove beyond any doubt that the items were his. The police 'explained' that pawn shops were different, that my city's laws allow pawnbrokers to profit from the transactions they make with thieves, otherwise how could they stay in business?!

 

Pawn shops offer many things, but Dignity is something rarely found there.

[Charles Rice]

Do what makes you feel best. But to me, they are yours.

[cellmatrix]

I think it's a wonderful sentiment that the OP has. All people are not so selfish that they would feel bothered or try to take advantage of someone reaching out to them about a family pen.You have to be ready in case they do, but on the other hand it could prove to be a rewarding experience. When I say rewarding, I'm not talking about financially rewarding, I am talking about emotionally and/or spiritually rewarding.

Edited December 4, 2015 by cellmatrix