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Opinions On Fit And Finish


J85909266

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Fit and finish is a term I bring with me from my hobby as a knife enthusiast.

 

From Urban Dictionary:

 

"The attention to detail of a finished product, most often referring to a manufactured products (cars, handguns, etc) but also applicable to almost any human production (TV shows, websites, etc). Fit refers to how well the component parts come together, and finish refers to the completeness or perfection of the work."

 

It is something that is weighed very heavily when determining the value of a product for many niche hobbies. However, I do not see it brought up very often in this particular community. Often, it seems to me that people just accept fountain pens being exorbitantly priced without any particular reason why. Materials and exclusivity, alone, are not enough for me to personally validate spending more than $200 USD on a fountain pen. I need to know more.

 

There is one member, Jar, that I have noticed seems to be acutely aware of how important fit and finish are, and that inspired me to make this topic.

 

I want to share my beginner's experience with fit and finish since I have become a fountain pen enthusiast. These opinions do not take into account things like durability, nib writing quality, flow, filling systems and many of the other things frequently discussed on these forums. I would like to focus specifically on how tightly pieces fit together, how well polished the finish is. Is there any play or wiggle where there shouldn't be? How smooth and precise are the threads?

 

I'll start with the bottom rung:

Noodler's Pens

Jinhao/Wing Sung Pens

 

My Ahab had terrible fit. The feed was too small, allowing for ink to literally drip through the section. The threads were stiff and prone to sticking. This is a perfect example of awful fit.

 

My Jinhao X750 had bad fit, as well, with threads that were prone to crossing and had enough space to wiggle while screwing in, but what blew me away was the finish. Coating that flaked away like a scratch off ticket, unfinished, sharp edges.

 

Middle of the Road:

Lamy

Parker

 

My Safari had a poorly fit cap that was prone to slipping off for no reason and some lack of finish on injection molding lines.

My Parker slip caps on my Sonnets and 51s either stick on way too tight, or have too much wiggle room. However, the finish itself is mostly impressive.

 

High Quality:

Pilot

TWSBI

 

I have more pilot pens than any other brand, and for good reason: The fit and finish is impeccable on even the low priced models. Now, the Varsity, Petit 1 and 78G are very low priced, and have some obvious, price-related finish omissions, especially where injection molded parts lack polish, but even on these bargain pieces, the fit is perfect and true.

 

Bump up to the Prera, Metropolitan and Custom line, and I can't pick a flaw. Pilot just reeks quality, especially for the price.

 

TWSBI is another that shocked me. I only own a Vac 700, and while I'm aware of the issues with durability, that is not my focus, here. This pen is just beautifully finished and fits together like a dream. I can;t fine a single injection line or spot, the polish is high and beautiful on every piece, and there is no wiggle on any point of assembly.

 

The Pinnacle:

S.T. Dupont

 

I was very lucky to snag an Olympio XL from Ebay for south of $250, shipped. I sprung for this pen based on posts from Jar, whom I mentioned earlier, praising their paraphrased fit and finish. I am not disappointed. This pen reeks quality. The pieces fit together so well that I lose myself just slipping the cap on and off and screwing the barrel back and forth. This pen has polish where other pens just ignore it because it's out of sight. The threads are not just there for function, they are polished to a luxurious, silky action. There is impeccable symmetry. People think the cap is magnetic because the tolerance when capping it is so tight that it almost feels like the cap is pulling itself on when you get it into position. Surfaces only seen when breaking down the pen are polished to the same shine as the rest of cap and barrel. And yes, it write just as well as it's finished. In fact, i don't own a pen as smooth and pleasant, despite it being a fine nib.

 

So, what, as a community are your experiences with fit and finish?

Fountain pens forever and forever a hundred years fountain pens, all day long forever, forever a hundred times, over and over Fountain Pen Network Adventures dot com!

 

- Joe

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In my little bundle, based on your parameters, Pilot Custom PO and Sailor Profit Rhodium F the best overall, then Noodler's Konrad Acrylics alongside Lamy Al-Stars, then Jinhaos. Dislike the Sailor and Pilot converters though, Lamy wins there for fit and ease of use. My vintage pens don't count here - fit and finish were not on my list of needful things.

Noodler's Konrad Acrylics (normal+Da Luz custom flex) ~ Lamy AL-Stars/Vista F/M/1.1 ~ Handmade Barry Roberts Dayacom M ~ Waterman 32 1/2, F semi-flex nib ~ Conklin crescent, EF super-flex ~ Aikin Lambert dip pen EEF super-flex ~ Aikin Lambert dip pen semi-flex M ~ Jinhao X450s ~ Pilot Custom Heritage 912 Posting Nib ~ Sailor 1911 Profit 21k Rhodium F. Favourite inks: Iroshizuku blends, Noodler's CMYK blends.

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Lamy does have very nice converters. I also dislike Pilot converters.

Fountain pens forever and forever a hundred years fountain pens, all day long forever, forever a hundred times, over and over Fountain Pen Network Adventures dot com!

 

- Joe

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In my humble collection, Pilot/Namiki satisfies me the most in terms of fit and finish. Montblanc and Pelikan are pretty close up there as well. ST Dupont has been a mixed bag. Their pens are well-made but the durability of the Chinese lacquer and the resistance of the gold trim to wear and tear is not as good as the first three brands. I love the Pilot CON-70 converter.

Edited by shuuemura
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On fit and finish.

 

I do consider fit and finish extremely important when evaluating any purchase, whether we are talking about shoes or fountain pens. There are several factors that go into explaining why I consider it important. One is that it gives an early indication of the makers commitment to producing a high quality product that will last for a long period. If the maker has paid attention to those parts that do not normally show you can feel confident that those parts that do show also received attention.

 

The OP mentioned a couple examples, capping or uncapping an ST Dupont Olympio/Orpheo fountain pen. I quit smoking some years ago, but I still enjoy simply holding, opening and closing my ST Dupont Ligne2 lighters just for the feel and the "ping" sound it makes when opened or closed.

 

A comment was made above about the Laque de Chine. Here is an example of an ST Dupont Cigar Band lighter that spent many years in my pocket with coins and keys before I was given a leather case to keep it in. The picture is rather large and detailed. The body is solid brass with Laque de Chine insets and the wear on that solid brass chunk is certainly visible, yet the Laque de Chine is virtually untouched.

 

There are many other examples. If you get a chance look under the clip of a Graf von Faber Castell Classic pen. Or check out the threads and o-ring on the section of a Caran d'Ache Varius fountain pen.

 

Unfortunately, such attention to detail takes time and commitment which add to costs.

 

 

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Personally, I find this to be my biggest sticking point. I had a Sailor, and hated the feel of the clip. My Lamy Safari might be my favorite pen so far. It feels solid, and while the finish isn't prefect, the fit is.

 

I'm trying to find a point where fit, and usability meet, with the finish being fairly high. I've heard good things about Pelikan, but that's a little rich for my blood, especially because I want to try different nibs sizes and grinds. TWSBI seems to be the ideal middle.

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Fascinating topic. I have to agree with the OP's observations entirely, except that I still haven't convinced myself to buy an ST Dupont pen. One of these days, perhaps.

In addition to Jar's point about fit and finish as an indicator of longevity, for me there is another, more emotional issue. When a manufacturer goes to the trouble of adding a non-mandatory O-ring, or finishing the inside of a barrel, I interpret that as a personal gesture: they found joy in their craftsmanship, and they were considerate enough of the eventual owner to want to share their pleasure in small things. In a way, it is a personal compliment from the people who made the pen to the person who uses it.

ron

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I find it interesting to look at some "Almost Perfect" pens to see how the issue of Fit & Finish may have been the key difference.

 

Some examples.

 

IMHO one of the classic and enduring almost perfect designs is the Montegrappa Extra and Extra 1930. It has nearly everything going for it, beautiful celluloid, Sterling silver furniture, a clip that has a roller to ease it over various thicknesses of cloth yet hold securely, fantastic nibs, a wide body and slightly concave Sterling silver section that does not slip when wet...but then it adds a cap that takes a brazillion turns to put on or take off.

 

http://www.fototime.com/1684E735994F8D2/large.jpg

Another almost perfect pen is my Pelikan 1050. It is beautiful, very well built, somewhat rare since it was only made for a short period...but, the pen tends to work itself out of the cap while sitting in my pocket. More than once I've pulled it out to find all I have is a cap and an open fountain pen nib up in my pocket.

 

Pelikan 1050 on lower left:

http://www.fototime.com/2E81EB3C390AB51/xlarge.jpg

My Yard-o-Led Corinthian. Even though all the ads show a Corinthian being used posted, the reality is it jess don't post. Oh, you can add tape inside the cap to fake it, but it is just a kludge. Unposted it is jess about ¼" too short to be comfortable and my little Viceroy Pocket pen when posted adds just that additional length.

 

http://www.fototime.com/7CFA232563F8922/large.jpg

Viceroy Pocket on bottom.

http://www.fototime.com/2E6CF70DAB464AF/standard.jpg

All of those pens are really favorites but also every time I use them there is this little voice saying "That's just not right!"

 

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...but then it adds a cap that takes a brazillion turns to put on or take off.

 

Isn't that a design issue, not a quality control issue?

 

In this topic shouldn't the measure be the quality of the threads, and the security and alignment of the cap once closed?

 

gary

Edited by gary
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I will readily admit that my Noodler's pens have severe shortcomings in quality control. If only my Pequod's Smoke Konrad didn't dry out in a few hours when capped, I would probably love that pen above all others. There are six other Noodler's pens in my home, and none of them receive regular use. Those that do:

 

Pelikan M200

Pelikan M400

Pilot Parallel 3.8mm

some school pen that was ground to an oblique stub and PIFed to me

Hero 616 (only one of em, to be honest -- I have six or seven)

Baoer 388

Platinum Plaisirs (mine are both filled with markup colors, so don't get LOTS of use)

 

Someone above mentioned their Pelikan M1050 unscrewing its cap in his pocket; I've had that with my M400 also.

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Isn't that a design issue, not a quality control issue?

 

In this topic shouldn't the measure be the quality of the threads, and the security and alignment of the cap once closed?

 

gary

 

I consider that part of the fit and finish, the overall thought that went into the product, the attention to detail regardless of how mundane it is.

 

My Website

 

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Here's a first for me, which I came across recently. It's a T marked 1947 Parker 51 barrel with a see-through imperfection inside the lucite.

 

The slip caps in these are of course subject to the passage of time. I've had silky smooth ones you would find hard to believe are the action of metal on metal, graunchy ones, ones that have lost tension, etc.

 

http://i773.photobucket.com/albums/yy19/flounder2009/1948%20Canadian%20Parker%2051%20Vac/P51%20cedar%20blue%20blemish%20B.jpg

http://i773.photobucket.com/albums/yy19/flounder2009/1948%20Canadian%20Parker%2051%20Vac/P51%20cedar%20blue%20blemish%20backlit%20B.jpg

 

 

Latest pen related post @ flounders-mindthots.blogspot.com : vintage Pilot Elite Pocket Pen review

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I consider that part of the fit and finish, the overall thought that went into the product, the attention to detail regardless of how mundane it is.

A consider-able distinction.

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Calling TWSBI better quality than Lamy or Parker is just wrong.

Honestly, my Vac 700 has not given me any issues, worked flawlessly, is well-finished and the pieces can be fully disassembled and reassembled without any noticeable change. I would say that is quality fit and finish.

 

Now, if my pen cracks to pieces like the internet says, that changes things.

Fountain pens forever and forever a hundred years fountain pens, all day long forever, forever a hundred times, over and over Fountain Pen Network Adventures dot com!

 

- Joe

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Like the OP, I have more Pilots than any other brand (yes it's a brand I "trust"), but if I leave the Varsities out of my Pilot count, I have the same number of Esterbrooks.

 

And in the context of this thread, there's a reason for that. Where my Esterbrooks do have flaws, they are mostly due to 60 to 80 odd years of use and abuse. The original quality is quite remarkable. And these are mass produced pens that were meant to be affordable for anyone. Not the very cheapest, but hardly luxury items.

 

Three Lamys, a Safari, an AL-Star, and a 2000. Not a huge sample, but based on the Lamy 2000, I'd put it in the high quality price range. Haven't used the other two probably in a couple of years. Hmm, who could I give them to?

 

I'm going to stay out of TWSBI arguments, at least for tonight.

"So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable creature, since it enables one to find or make a reason for everything one has a mind to do."

 

- Benjamin Franklin

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I also owned a Lamy 2000, and it did have very nice finish. The reason I had omitted it from that tier is because it was prone to burping in the cap, which led to messes seldom experienced with almost any of my other pens, which I chalked up to a fit issue which eventually led me to sell the pen.

Fountain pens forever and forever a hundred years fountain pens, all day long forever, forever a hundred times, over and over Fountain Pen Network Adventures dot com!

 

- Joe

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Honestly, my Vac 700 has not given me any issues, worked flawlessly, is well-finished and the pieces can be fully disassembled and reassembled without any noticeable change. I would say that is quality fit and finish.

 

Now, if my pen cracks to pieces like the internet says, that changes things.

I agree with you on the vac 700. It is far better than a Parker 51.
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I think the Lamy 2000 has perfect fit and finish. The next pen is the Visconti Pininfarina. The nib lays down a line that is buttery smooth. The pen itself is put together by skillful craftsmen. This is one 1800 dollar pen that writes as smooth as any nakaya pen. The last pen that meets these stringent requirements is the Porsche 3135 Solid Fountain pen. The nib is very wide. The tipping on this thing is fat and it makes for a gorgeous wet juicy line

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