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Smooth Pen That Gives No Feedback

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#1 ibrahim

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Posted 03 November 2015 - 03:05

Greetings everybody. I am a new friend here and I really need your help and advice. I have been in search for the perfect pen. I have Lamy 2000 fine nib but I am not highly impressed. It is not as smooth I would love liked. There is a bit of a tooth that I don't want. Grip is okay but I don't like the tabs on the side that cause the cap to fit in. I have Faber Castel Loom and I was really disappointed and I could not sell it. It is a bit bulky for one thing and it does give some feedback, which I hate. I I want to hold the pen and it would feel comfortable in my hand, as if it's part of my own body and I can write for hours and never feel a bit of discomfort. Pens already gave me a writer's bump and I tried to cure them and I still have a bit of a bump on my middle finger from writing. I am being protective of my fingers here as I want to eliminate those bumps. Generally I am not picky with pens and I write with any pen that writes, but since I saw the bump on my middle finger and how it doesn't go away; it is still there, I decided to do something in the interest of my health. Believe me it isn't a question of vanity. I am not a collector and I don't want to as I cherish simplicity in life. But I simply want a good fountain pen that glides across the page, that gives no feedback, that is butter smooth, that is a joy to hold in my hand and it is ergonomic and a perfect fit for me. Could you please advise me? Thanks form the bottom of my heart. 

 

Ibrahim

NC, US


Edited by ibrahim, 03 November 2015 - 03:08.


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#2 lmarine0510

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Posted 03 November 2015 - 03:19

If you are looking for a pen on the cheaper and modern end of the spectrum, I would recommend either a Pilot Metropolitan or a Pilot 78g with a <M> nib, which is really like a western Fine point. In my experience, those Pilots are very smooth, wet and easy to write with, although some people do not like the heft of and the bump near the grip of the Metropolitan. If you were willing to try a more vintage pen, and willing to spend some money, I would steer you in the direction of buying a restored Parker 51 from a reputable seller. The 51 is my absolute favorite pen and both of mine write a smooth, fine line that is just wet enough for the nib to glide over the paper with ease.   


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#3 jar

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Posted 03 November 2015 - 03:32

Of course we cannot advise you.

 

It is up to you to invest in trying many different fountain pens, hold them, write with them, learn.

 

Find the pen club in your area and attend several meetings.  Go to the North Carolina pen show.  The only way to answer your questions is to try as many different pens as possible.


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#4 pajaro

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Posted 03 November 2015 - 03:47

I suggest a Pelikan pen in the nib size you prefer.  M400 and higher give no feedback I could detect.  M200 steel nibs give some feedback in EF, F and M sizes.  Broad nib less.

 

Of course, we do prefer as stated above that you try every pen under the sun and buy all the ones we have tried from us. :lticaptd:


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#5 sail1942

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Posted 03 November 2015 - 04:31

TWSBI 580, classic, or  mini 



#6 migo984

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Posted 03 November 2015 - 06:10

This is of course almost a impossible to answer. The "perfect pen" is just so personal to each individual. What is comfortable to hold for one person is a horror for someone else. But here are 2 suggestions, selected on the basis of my own preferences and parameters for long, comfortable writing sessions, and that I find don't put pressure on my middle finger joint. These 'Goldilocks' criteria FOR ME are:

- no heavy pens; under 25gsm so it appears light in your hand
- a pen that feels balanced un-posted (relates to the weight thing)
- no bulky wide-girthed sections, but not too narrow that your fingers cramp (hand size affects this obviously)
- No metal sections. No-one will ever convince me these are a good thing. They affect grip, are slippery and add unnecessary weight
- a slightly shaped or fluted round section so your fingers don't slip. Absolutely no shaped sections like on the Safari that force your grip where it doesn't want to go.
- no significant 'step' between barrel and section and no threads in this area. This tends to mean I prefer slip caps.
- a smooth, rounded shape
- a medium nib (if Japanese) or medium for European et al. Obviously you want extra smooth. I don't mind a small amount of feedback - but no scratchiness.
- decent ink flow. NO dry writers allowed
- a nib with some 'give' or spring. I prefer gold but not exclusively. It doesn't have to have any flex, just feel soft on the paper.

Given these criteria, and assuming you are using the best ink/paper combo to suit your pen, my 2 recommendations are:

Economy pen: Platinum Cool demonstrator with medium nib. The best of my steel nibs by a very long way. Incredibly easy fit in the hand and so comfortable. Juicy ink flow helps. A real bargain - I think they're around $40 in the US but I bought my last one for $19 from Japan.
Look here for info and reviews
http://www.gouletpen...-PGB-3000A-05-M

More expensive pen: Franklin Christoph Model #20 'Marietta' with a fine 18k gold nib, adjusted slightly by Jim Rouse at FC for slightly more ink flow. The most comfortable pen I own. Beautiful understated design. Priced at $255 with their stock gold nib.
http://www.franklin-...0-marietta.html

I have not included vintage pens as I've assumed you prefer new.

Of course, these are my favourites, based on my preferences, after using pens for well over 40 years and owning many. Everyone on here will have their own, different views and many will totally disagree with me, but that's fountain pens for you. They're as individual as each of us, and it's as difficult to find the universally perfect pen as it is a universally comfortable pair of shoes -)

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#7 sirgilbert357

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Posted 03 November 2015 - 13:07

1. Learn arm writing. You want to write for hours on end? Finger writing will compromise that goal no matter what pen you use. Using a very light grip will help.

 

2. You want smooth? Forget about demanding this out of the box. Buy the pen for ALL of its other attributes first. Nibs can always be smoothed and tweaked if they aren't to your preference out of the box. You can either send it to a pro or learn how to use 12,000 grit micromesh. I only got one pen that was "melted butter on hot glass" smooth out of the box (out of the 8 I currently have and 10 or 12 I've had total). But a single 30 min session with the nib smoothing kit from the Goulets was all it took to fix them all. EVERY pen I have now writes like buttah. Sure its possible to screw this up, but you can either practice on a cheap Jinhao or two or you can just take your time and be careful (or send it to a pro as mentioned above; I'm very much a DIY-er).


Edited by sirgilbert357, 03 November 2015 - 13:08.


#8 ac12

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Posted 03 November 2015 - 17:27

There is no 'silver bullet' to your problem.

The lump on your finger tells me that you are gripping you pen TIGHT.
- So first thing is to loosen your grip. Your grip should be light enough that someone can easily pull the pen out from your hand.

- You also need to use a light pen. Forget the heavy 20+ gram pens. The Lamy 2000 is 25 grams. Get something like a vintage Parker 45, it is down at 15 grams, or a Sheaffer school or 'no-nonsense' pen.
- You need a pen that fits YOUR hand. Some people feel more comfortable with a slim pen, others prefer a fatter pen. This is an individual fit. I prefer slim pens, others prefer FAT pens.
- The pen needs to balance well in your hand, so you don't have to grip the pen tight to keep the back of the pen from lifting the front of the pen. In some cases, all it takes is to use the pen unposted. In other cases, you need to change pens.

- Next thing to learn is arm writing. If you write with your fingers, you are using the small finger muscles. Those will get tired relatively quickly, compared to the larger arm muscles. Converting from a finger writer to an arm writer requires dedication. I practiced 1 to 3 hours a day, EVERYDAY, for 3 months, before arm writing became natural for me, and many more months after that before I felt my handwriting with my arm looked good. This is because I was training muscles that have never done fine motor movements, to do the fine motor movements of writing. And building muscles memory requires repetition, over and over and over ....

Now for the smoothness.
This is not just determined by just the pen.
Smoothness is affected by 4 variables, any of which can turn a smooth writing experience into a bad scratchy experience.
These variables are: the pen, the ink, the paper, you the writer.
And there is another item 'wetness' which is an interaction between the pen and the ink.

- the pen. This is the one that is commonly targeted, as you are. And there are a few items here; the profile of the tipping, the smoothness of the tipping, the size of the tipping, the wetness or ink flow.
- - The tip of the nib has to be in alignment. 80% of the scratchy nibs I run into have been fixed just by aligning the nib.
- - The tip has to be round and SMOOTH where it contacts the paper. If the tip on your pen has a different profile, the tip needs to be shaped to round off any sharp corners. Many vintage pens have this problem.
- - The finer the nib the scratchier it will feel. This is because the finer nib will follow the texture of the paper more than a wider nib.
- - The nib's ink flow is a factor in wetness.

- the ink. Some inks provide better lubrication to the tip of the nib than others. Not enough ink and you don't have enough lubrication, and the nib will have too much drag/friction on the paper.

- the paper. The finer the nib you use, the smoother and harder the paper has to be to give you a smooth writing experience. IOW, you cannot just just any paper. You NEED to shop for fountain pen friendly paper. And more specifically, paper that will match your nib. Textured paper is BAD for a fountain pen, especially a fine nib pen.

- you the writer. If you press the pen into the paper, you are increasing the friction between the pen and the paper. More friction = more drag and scratchy feel. You need to write with a very light hand, almost no downward pressure on the pen.

- wetness. This is an interaction between the pen's ability to flow ink, and the ink's viscosity.
A dry pen with dry ink will skip or not even write.
A wet pen with wet ink will flow too much ink onto the paper.
The match is a dry pen with a wet ink or a wet pen with a dry ink.
Having said this, the pen can be adjusted to flow more or less ink, so you can adjust the pen to write with a specific ink.

Edited by ac12, 03 November 2015 - 17:29.

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#9 httpmom

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Posted 03 November 2015 - 18:32

Quite frankly, "perfect pen" is extraordinarily personal, like a car only more so. However, many of the attributes you desire coincide with those that I prefer therefore, perhaps you might think Japanese. A Platinum Century 3776 can be purchased directly from Japan for around $65...a steal for such a lovely pen. I own several and can write for hours with one. My brain gives out long before my hands do.

 

You did not mention what size pen you prefer, that's another very individual choice.

 

Platinum-3776-CENTURY-60_percent.jpg

 

http://shop.j-subcul...1A7B63C191EA466

 

Of course others prefer German, nothing wrong with that...

 

Remember 'The Wizard Of Oz'?

"Of course, people do go both ways [pointing in both directions] That's the trouble. I can't make up my mind."

 

 


Edited by httpmom, 03 November 2015 - 19:12.

"You mustn’t be afraid to dream a little bigger darling.” "Forever optimistic with a theme and purpose." "My other pen is oblique and dippy."

#10 sirgilbert357

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Posted 03 November 2015 - 18:38

There is no 'silver bullet' to your problem.

The lump on your finger tells me that you are gripping you pen TIGHT.
- So first thing is to loosen your grip. Your grip should be light enough that someone can easily pull the pen out from your hand.

- You also need to use a light pen. Forget the heavy 20+ gram pens. The Lamy 2000 is 25 grams. Get something like a vintage Parker 45, it is down at 15 grams, or a Sheaffer school or 'no-nonsense' pen.
- You need a pen that fits YOUR hand. Some people feel more comfortable with a slim pen, others prefer a fatter pen. This is an individual fit. I prefer slim pens, others prefer FAT pens.
- The pen needs to balance well in your hand, so you don't have to grip the pen tight to keep the back of the pen from lifting the front of the pen. In some cases, all it takes is to use the pen unposted. In other cases, you need to change pens.

- Next thing to learn is arm writing. If you write with your fingers, you are using the small finger muscles. Those will get tired relatively quickly, compared to the larger arm muscles. Converting from a finger writer to an arm writer requires dedication. I practiced 1 to 3 hours a day, EVERYDAY, for 3 months, before arm writing became natural for me, and many more months after that before I felt my handwriting with my arm looked good. This is because I was training muscles that have never done fine motor movements, to do the fine motor movements of writing. And building muscles memory requires repetition, over and over and over ....

Now for the smoothness.
This is not just determined by just the pen.
Smoothness is affected by 4 variables, any of which can turn a smooth writing experience into a bad scratchy experience.
These variables are: the pen, the ink, the paper, you the writer.
And there is another item 'wetness' which is an interaction between the pen and the ink.

- the pen. This is the one that is commonly targeted, as you are. And there are a few items here; the profile of the tipping, the smoothness of the tipping, the size of the tipping, the wetness or ink flow.
- - The tip of the nib has to be in alignment. 80% of the scratchy nibs I run into have been fixed just by aligning the nib.
- - The tip has to be round and SMOOTH where it contacts the paper. If the tip on your pen has a different profile, the tip needs to be shaped to round off any sharp corners. Many vintage pens have this problem.
- - The finer the nib the scratchier it will feel. This is because the finer nib will follow the texture of the paper more than a wider nib.
- - The nib's ink flow is a factor in wetness.

- the ink. Some inks provide better lubrication to the tip of the nib than others. Not enough ink and you don't have enough lubrication, and the nib will have too much drag/friction on the paper.

- the paper. The finer the nib you use, the smoother and harder the paper has to be to give you a smooth writing experience. IOW, you cannot just just any paper. You NEED to shop for fountain pen friendly paper. And more specifically, paper that will match your nib. Textured paper is BAD for a fountain pen, especially a fine nib pen.

- you the writer. If you press the pen into the paper, you are increasing the friction between the pen and the paper. More friction = more drag and scratchy feel. You need to write with a very light hand, almost no downward pressure on the pen.

- wetness. This is an interaction between the pen's ability to flow ink, and the ink's viscosity.
A dry pen with dry ink will skip or not even write.
A wet pen with wet ink will flow too much ink onto the paper.
The match is a dry pen with a wet ink or a wet pen with a dry ink.
Having said this, the pen can be adjusted to flow more or less ink, so you can adjust the pen to write with a specific ink.

 

Comprehensive and well said. *golf clap*



#11 ac12

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Posted 03 November 2015 - 18:59

&nbsp;

 
Comprehensive and well said. *golf clap*

&nbsp;

I need to remember where I write this stuff so that I can just link to it, rather than write it over every time.

Much of it is as a result of learning it first hand, which is the best teacher.

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#12 sirgilbert357

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Posted 03 November 2015 - 19:11

&nbsp; &nbsp;

I need to remember where I write this stuff so that I can just link to it, rather than write it over every time.

Much of it is as a result of learning it first hand, which is the best teacher.

 

Yes, that would be easier. That's a lot of typing. This kind of topic could come up weekly, lol...and,  I agree, experience is the best teacher.

 

I should have qualified my statements about nib tuning...yes, I check for alignment first (using a loupe). I wouldn't recommend anyone just start grinding away with micromesh...sorry to give that impression. 



#13 httpmom

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Posted 03 November 2015 - 19:20

There is no 'silver bullet' to your problem.
 

Veeeery well said.


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#14 ac12

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Posted 03 November 2015 - 20:29

&nbsp;

 
Yes, that would be easier. That's a lot of typing. This kind of topic could come up weekly, lol...and,  I agree, experience is the best teacher.
 
I should have qualified my statements about nib tuning...yes, I check for alignment first (using a loupe). I wouldn't recommend anyone just start grinding away with micromesh...sorry to give that impression. 

&nbsp;

Not a problem.
In fact that is why I need to write this thing ONCE and link to it. I keep forgetting stuff, so these essays are usually different.

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#15 ibrahim

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Posted 04 November 2015 - 21:56

I don't have enough words to thank each one of you; I don't even know how to begin to thank you as you have all overwhelmed me with your caring replies. Of course, I enjoyed the sense of humor of some of you. As I try to keep budget in mind and I fear spending a lot of money on something that I am not positive it will not give me feedback as I write, I believe I am going with the advice of our friend lmarine0510 and have already ordered a Pilot 78g with a <M> nib. I would be so tickled if it doesn't give any feedback whatsoever. I am always jealous when I hear somebody saying that his or her pen is smooth, like playing air hockey, even on bad paper. That is what I am praying for and may the Lord grant me that wish completely. I hope you all have a blessed evening. 

 

In Christ,

 

Ibrahim †



#16 ibrahim

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Posted 04 November 2015 - 22:03

 I would steer you in the direction of buying a restored Parker 51 from a reputable seller. The 51 is my absolute favorite pen and both of mine write a smooth, fine line that is just wet enough for the nib to glide over the paper with ease.   

 

Thank you very much for everything. So, where does one buy a Parker 51 from a reputable seller, now that it is your absolute favorite? 



#17 Steven

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Posted 04 November 2015 - 23:56

For a dirt cheap fountain pen that writes very smooth try a Platinum Preppy. They cost under $4.00.

For a pen with absolutely no (zero) feedback, you need to try a Uni-Ball Jetstream ball point pen. Sacrilege I know, but these pens have no friction when you write. These pens are so friction free they are painful to write with.  


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#18 ibrahim

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 00:02

Steven,

I actually tried Platinum Preppy. We bought two of them from The Goulet Company and we were sorely disappointed. You could hear the squeaking across the room and it was a total waste of money. I got stung one too many  times and I am trying not to waste money on pens but just get the one and get down to writing. Jet Stream ball point is good but they are not fully reliable as they do skip and you don't get one straight jet black color but it fades here and there. Thank you so much for caring and answering my question. God bless you.



#19 sirgilbert357

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 14:48

Steven,

I actually tried Platinum Preppy. We bought two of them from The Goulet Company and we were sorely disappointed. You could hear the squeaking across the room and it was a total waste of money. I got stung one too many  times and I am trying not to waste money on pens but just get the one and get down to writing. Jet Stream ball point is good but they are not fully reliable as they do skip and you don't get one straight jet black color but it fades here and there. Thank you so much for caring and answering my question. God bless you.

 

Something to consider including in your next order from Goulet:

 

http://www.gouletpen...-Package-Tuning

 

You should keep the Preppys and practice on them. I bet you can get that squeak to disappear. Sometimes the paper you write on can be an issue too though...but anyway, check it out. Once you have this little kit, you can make any nib as smooth as you want. It pays for itself the more pens you end up buying that need just that little bit of nib work...



#20 Danny Kaffee

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 22:54

If you know what you're doing with a loupe, micromesh and mylar sheets you can make any nib sing.  I have 0.3 mm Preppies that I've made as smooth as a medium gold nib Pelikan.  It just takes some practice.







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