Annoyed - Rare Pen

[Pterodactylus]

Removed the link from the quote, so I suggest you do the same in your post, just in case

[cobalt]

Since we're discussing rarity, how prices for things alleged to be rare get set is important.

 

Markets without fixed prices are wholesale markets, as are markets that bring buyers and sellers together through a market-maker (Ebay is a market maker).

 

Ebay selling prices for pens should set the wholesale market price for the same type of pen from which a retailer would apply their markup. Pricing guide books are the prices that something will get at auction, i.e. wholesale, and not retail. That's why so many people don't get high valuations when they have something valued, like a stamp collection, or other collection.

 

e.g. a Lamy Safari retails at say £12.00. An Ebay closing price for a brand new Safari should be about £6. If someone is buying new Safaris retail at a discount, they'll list them on Ebay at that price to try to get perhaps £10-12. Getting a new Safari at £6 should make one suspicious. However, a used Safari might be worth that or less, but probably not more than £6.

 

e.g. a Parker 51 say, gets listed on Ebay for £50 and sells for say £90. What is the retail price of that Parker on a vintage pen seller's retail site? If a vintage retailer bought the Parker 51 at this auction, they should price between £150-180, to cover their retail costs.

 

But, you should ask, what is the Parker 51 worth? That is the question to ask. Well the price depends on what people have paid in the past for Parker 51s at auction and is a function of quality and scarcity as well as interest, and buyer desire.

 

Keep in mind that the last pen in a retailer's pen shop is not priced for scarcity because it is the last one; it is usually discounted so they can get their wholesale price back. Otherwise as their inventory went down, the retail price should rise, which it obviously doesn't, whereas at a wholesale market as the inventory for something goes down, the price will rise (ceteris paribus as they say).

 

So someone finds a Parker 51 in a desk drawer and looks on Ebay to see what they sell for (closing sold listings). They see £90 and think it is worth £90. They go to a retail vintage sellers website and see them listed at prices from £125 and up, so think they can get that and list accordingly.

 

People who know what the pen is worth know when to stop bidding. How many FPNers have paid to much? That is another question.

 

Why does Ebay work? Because there are lots of buyers prepared to pay retail prices at an auction and many sellers trying to get retail prices.

 

Homework. Go to a country auction (in Ontario, get the Woodridge Advertiser). They'll be a bunch of people hanging around the back bidding (they're buying stock for their shops). They stop when, as they'll put it, "the City Folks start bidding at retail". They'll also be a couple of people with loupes checking out things; these people work for jewellery retailers. They'll also stop when the city folk start bidding. Question for the homework: are you City Folk?

[shawndp]

@Cobalt - I was born in a 12 million population town and have no reservations paying retail at an auciton if I want something bad enough. I'm not even talking some 3 or 4 digit price-tag-pen on ebay - I'm talking (as an example) paying $140k for $120k msrp Range Rover... You can call me City Folk, but you can also know that this City Folk had a secondary buyer lined up for 10% over that 140k... I know I over-paid, I just didn't care... On the topic of pens - it is wholly possible to pay retail in one country and still sell it in another at a profit. I paid USD 6 retail per bottle of R&K ink out of Germany and my local store sells them at US$11 - I see a minimum US$2 profit margin in this whereas someone locally in Germany would shake their head. There's a system where market prices are regulated by a central body - I think it was called Communism and I didn't think it fared very well...

[sidthecat]

I've lost out on a few pens because I'm essentially a cheapskate, but I've gotten lucky a few times by asking judicious questions and knowing just a bit more than the seller. Your time will come, dear.

[cobalt]

I'm all in favour of arbitrage, ShawnDP, but keep in mind in an arbitrage situation one also needs to take into account all the costs involved to arrive at the bargain so that you're actually making a profit.

 

I'm also not disrespecting City Folk, only making a point from experience buying at country auctions around Toronto. There is a buyer for something at any price, if one doesn't know its value; you may enjoy Oscar Wilde's Lady Windemere's Fan and what Lord Darlington says.

 

As for your comment on Communism, I assume you're being rhetorical; Canada essentially fixes the prices of dairy products through the supply management system which has transferred hard earned money from consumers directly into the pockets of dairy farmers, and ensures Canadians pay too much for dairy when compared to prices set in dairy markets (source: Fraser Institute). As for Ontario's LCBO, well don't get me started, but the Montreal Economic Institute did some good work on the logic of government controlled distribution systems.

 

It must be nice not needing to care, too.

Edited October 25, 2015 by cobalt

[inkstainedruth]

Even we drift away from EoCs initial topic.

 

I see no sense in bidding in an auction before the last hour or even the last minutes. It will only increase the overal price (and it increases the chance that you are tempted to go over your personal limit, as you really really want that piece).

In addition many bids too early attracts also sharks, the best what can happen is that nobody bids until the very end.

 

I never used a sniper tool by myself, but I always tried to start bidding in the last one or two minutes.

I was also annoyed by sniper tool bidders which places bids in the last second, but that is how it is.

 

Nevertheless I think that's the way to go, bid at the last moments (minutes, automatic or manual)

I see it as a game, if you get it it's nice, if not there is always a next auction.

In some cases I bid at the almost last minute. In other cases I bid early and keep my fingers crossed. In some cases I do raise my maximum -- which sometimes works and sometimes doesn't (and in the case of the Plum 51 wouldn't have actually made a difference: I got it for under my intermediate maximum bid). I don't particularly like sniping programs because it makes for an un-level playing field, IMO. If you really want something, either bid what you're willing to pay and be done with it, or be willing to hang around and watch the end of the auction. At work? Auction ends at 3 AM? Not my problem.

The Plummer auction ended mid-afternoon on a Saturday when I was out, and I then went to a party after dinner and didn't get home till 1:30 in the morning; I almost didn't bother checking the final hammer because I was convinced that I had been plain outbid (as in "What is this 'snipe' of which you speak?") -- but wasn't.

EoC, I'm sorry you didn't win the auction (been there plenty of times myself, so I know how frustrating it can be). I've seen other listings pulled for the same stated reason, and have never known whether there were in fact errors (such as the one listed in another thread where the "Parker" set were really "Packards" in a Parker box), whether someone went ahead and did a BiN, or whether the seller was tipped off as to a item's real value by someone (either as "You know that's worth a LOT more than you're asking...." or "Are you nuts? No-one will pay that much for that piece of junk...").

I've gotten lucky on Ebay more times than I've been burned. But I have still been burned, and pretty badly in a couple of cases (anyone interested in buying a $30 Arnold with a non-Arnold nib? It's worth about $10... ). And the rest of the time it's been somewhere between those two extremes....

But, as Pterodactylus said -- there's always another auction. And who know? That pen might get relisted by the seller. Or an even better one may come along. That's what happened with the Plummer I won -- for the previous one I'd seen (also a Demi) I dropped out of the bidding in the low $70 US range; with minutes to go it was at $85 (and had been for at least an hour), then the price jumped in the last second to $102. I got mine for slightly under $68 plus shipping, about a month later.... Go figure.

The prices on Ebay can be just astonishing (in both extremes) -- recently I saw a 1960s Rat Fink toy listed for nearly $50. And one (seller claimed it was a prototype) for $100. For something that back when I was a kid cost maybe a dime in a gumball machine.... I maybe paid a little more than I should have for the auction I bid on, but nothing like those prices (that was a case where I was only the second bidder, and just watched the price sit all week waiting for the first bidder (or someone else) to make a move. But that was a case where if I got outbid I got outbid. And while I would have paid less I figure that the free shipping made up for some of that final price (ones from the 1980s that are on keychains are of course a whole lot less -- about $3 + shipping).

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

 

edited for typos

Edited October 25, 2015 by inkstainedruth

[inkstainedruth]

Oh, and EoC -- cat and bag may have parted ways, as you said, but I can tell you I won't be your competition if the stuff does get relisted -- I don't know enough about Watermans to have bid -- no matter how it's spelled in the listing. If, OTOH, it had been an Emerald Pearl Vacumatic, all bets would have been off.....

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[gweimer1]

Been there, done that. I have a thread on it. I paid for an item, was [intentionally?] send the wrong item, and found the seller had been pulling all his pen listings, and then relisting them at something like 4X the original price. eBay is nothing but a large flea market. You find deals, you find dishonesty, you find reputable sellers, you find people listing new goods for 25% higher than it would cost, for some, to walk down the street and buy without shipping.

 

EOC is now speaking in the third person?

[sidthecat]

I think I have too many pens anyway.

[inkstainedruth]

Been there, done that. I have a thread on it. I paid for an item, was [intentionally?] send the wrong item, and found the seller had been pulling all his pen listings, and then relisting them at something like 4X the original price. eBay is nothing but a large flea market. You find deals, you find dishonesty, you find reputable sellers, you find people listing new goods for 25% higher than it would cost, for some, to walk down the street and buy without shipping.

And you find completely clueless sellers who don't know what they have, or they'd put a higher price tag on the item. My best "just lost out to a sniper" was a Parker 51 in Cordovan Brown with a rolled gold cap. The seller was listing it for the original owner, so when I'd ask a question the seller would check with that person and get back to me. I would have given higher than 5 stars for communication if that had been possible -- the rapport I was developing with the seller was lovely (much better than the "it's a pen, I think it must work" that I've gotten sometimes). And then I got sniped with seconds to go....

Yeah, Ebay is a crapshoot at best. Sometimes you roll sevens or boxcars and sometimes it's snake eyes. I've started keeping a list of the "snake eyes" sellers (the ones that fall into the category of "DO NOT BUY FROM THIS PERSON!"). The top of the list is the guy I started referring to as "the third-rate pawnbroker"....

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[robert1962]

Here is the central problem as I see it. Ebay does not physically hold the item. Therefore, they can not make a seller complete a sale should the seller change their mind (at any time and for any reason). Ebay can't even verify if a transfer of goods ever takes place (I have received tracked packages in the mail that were empty). In a brick and mortar auction once the item is on the block, its fate is determined by the bidders. Ebay just can't offer such control with their "auctions".

 

What Ebay can offer is access to the world. For me, this far outweighs the occasional encounter with a ding bat seller that I have to suffer through. Close to a thousand transactions (not all pens) with, maybe, a few dozen jokers. Not bad. I will say that most of the items that never arrived were auctions that I had won at a low bid. Not a surprise. Utter some profanities, provide some constructive feedback, and move on.

 

Bidding strategy? Only I know what I am willing to pay on any given day. That's the only segment of the market I am concerned with.

 

Bob

[Cryptos]

This is well understood. EoC is only an occasional buyer, and with limited resources, so is less able to absorb losses due to sellers without scruples. Luckily, in this instance, no money was exchanged.

[robert1962]

I understand. I think that my point is that as an isolated incident, such events can be frustrating, yes, but uncommon. The collector who can spot a Pink nib (5 or 7?) is, ultimately, in the driver's seat. Its the hunt. Take satisfaction in seeing the jewel in the junk.

 

Don't fret. There will be plenty more ignorant sellers with lots of scruples to prey upon. Some nice little old lady with Grand papas' old pens, whose prior marketing experience is the church rummage sale. I know I'm being harsh, but that is what we're hoping for, isn't it? If not, we would contact the seller and enlighten them so that they could get competitive bids. THAT'S Ebay.

 

Bob

[Goudy]

... and speaking of eBay, a search trick I sometimes use is to deliberately misspell the name. For example, there may be lots of competition for Waterman pens but how many will search for Watermann? At present there are several Watermann pens for sale.

 

And several from that genteel Edwardian lady penmaker Mable Todd.

 

Edit: I even found a photo of her.

Edited November 1, 2015 by Goudy

[Cryptos]

 

Don't fret. There will be plenty more ignorant sellers with lots of scruples to prey upon. Some nice little old lady with Grand papas' old pens, whose prior marketing experience is the church rummage sale. I know I'm being harsh, but that is what we're hoping for, isn't it? If not, we would contact the seller and enlighten them so that they could get competitive bids. THAT'S Ebay.

 

You may speak for yourself only, as this is definitely NOT what EoC is hoping for.

 

EoC is only looking to find a decent price, not a sumgai deal. EoC does not believe in trying to cheat anyone out of anything, or to take advantage of anyone.

[gweimer1]

eBay is always a mixed bag. I always chuckle at the listings that state "I don't know anything about pens", but the photos and starting prices seem to indicate otherwise.

[Pterodactylus]

You may speak for yourself only, as this is definitely NOT what EoC is hoping for.

 

EoC is only looking to find a decent price, not a sumgai deal. EoC does not believe in trying to cheat anyone out of anything, or to take advantage of anyone.

There is nothing wrong to be a sumgai (it happen anyway only very rare).

And I would almost claim that the "old nice little lady" do not exist on eBay.

Nice old little ladies most of the time do not sell anything on eBay, most of the time they Neither know what eBay is nor how to use a comuputer.

IMO more often they are just people who want to make the quick easy buck selling everything they can get their hands on (from dead or old relatives, flea markets, garage sells, Garret cleanings,....)

So don't hesitate to take a chance to make a bargain if you see one.

 

And I also think gweimer is right with his above statement.

[Charles Rice]

EBay - it's a game I refuse to play.

[cobalt]

given the comments on ebay, is there a thread for posting ebay experiences, such as:

 

1. seller experience: whether seller (no names) was / is reputable: seller assessment: good/use again, once only, never again

2. description: whether descriptions were reliable, believable: description: accurate/believable, adequate, too good to be true, rubbish

3. product: if won, was product as described: yes, no

4. start price: starting price made sense: low starting point, high but can be worked with, (I doubt we can do too high as I'd assume no one would bid in those...?)

5. I don't think it is useful to discuss actual price at the end of the auction as this is the whole point of ebay as an auction site, but we could ask: did you get a bargain?.

[robert1962]

 

You may speak for yourself only, as this is definitely NOT what EoC is hoping for.

 

EoC is only looking to find a decent price, not a sumgai deal. EoC does not believe in trying to cheat anyone out of anything, or to take advantage of anyone.

This is a fine and noble statement, but what is that "fair and decent" price? When it turns out that you were the only one bidding on that "Mable Todd" or the Pink nib that nobody else noticed in that fuzzy photo, and you become the Sumgai, do you protest that the price is too low?

 

I (I will speak for myself only) am studying those fuzzy images, or searching misspellings of naive sellers in a mostly unsuccessful attempt to limit the bidding competition.

 

As for the myth of the little old lady, she does exist. I paint the picture of a sympathetic character, but I could have just as easily described her Meth Tweaker nephew who is selling whatever he can steal from her, or the garage sale King of Duluth. In all cases, it is the differential in knowledge between seller and buyer (I will speak for myself only) that, occasionally, allows one to buy at a fair-er and decent-er price.

 

Quick thought on the early ending auction. While the seller lacks scruples if they did, in fact sell to a cash offer (as I suspect they did), they are only the second half of the problem. There are fountain pen buyers out there who initiate such deals. I have read other posts on this site where that practice has been tossed around pretty casually. It may well be a fellow FPN member that started this chain of events, and has some new goodies coming in the mail.

 

 

EBay - it's a game I refuse to play.

 

Well, with no guns or alcohol in the house, and a bad case of "Low T", there's not much else around here for me to get addicted to.

 

Would much prefer to hunt in the wild (I like the face to face aspect), but pretty slim pickens, these days.

 

Bob

Edited November 1, 2015 by robert1962