Inconceivable Price Differences

[LadyS]

Hello everyone here at FPN,

 

I have followed this forum for nearly a year now and considered joining; but now something is bugging me so much that I had to create a profile to hear your opinions or to be enlightened (I'm so bummed that this is somewhat spur-of-the-moment).

 

Now, I have used fountain pens for many years as they were mandatory at school (and still are in many European countries, I'm in my 20s, just in case you thought I went to school with Downton's Dowager!), but ditched them as soon as I could, as I never liked using sth because I had to: obviously when you are not given a choice you start to loathe whatever it is that you *must* use. On top of that the ink (always washable blue) used to drive me up the wall, as it was pale and paled further nearly into oblivion after a short time.. Having always loved stationery it was only a matter of time until I'd come back to fountain pens via ballpoints, gel pens and roller balls.. I'm also grateful for all the great ink that's available (to the detriment of my wallet!).

 

The FPs that I like the most at this point are Japanese, as they're not only very well done, but also look professional at any budget. Many European brands insist on making childish looking pens at a budget price point and if you want something decent looking you have to fork out half a fortune (yes, I am exaggerating ever so slightly, nevertheless this is for the most part my opinion - think Lamy, Pelikan etc. But look at the Pelikano (not the jr!): from what used to be a decent looking pen which you could have used at the office, it's turned now to look like a sodding toy with a useless clip - if you can consider that a clip - and converters don't work in the Pelikano).

 

I realise that I'm venting a little and writing more than I intended to, and on top of that including things which might be better placed in their own threads; but here's finally my point:

 

Why are Japanese fountain pens so ridiculously overpriced in Europe (and the US)? When taking a peek at Engeika's site for instance I was taken aback by the reasonable and low prices and wondered what might be wrong with the pens as they're so cheap (having read here a couple of days ago that they actually reflect the normal Japanese price!!). Today I took a peek at Japan's Amazon site and was flabbergasted at ALL the prices: Lamy and Parker cost in Japan about the same as in Europe, converters and Quink being actually cheaper there than here in Europe. The 'big 3' were similarly priced to Engeika. But when we look at European (and US) retailers, the 'big 3' cost around 50% more than in Japan. The argument of 'import' ceases to apply when you consider that European brands cost in Japan about as much as in Europe, so how can Japanese brands cost so much more in Europe? Aren't we taken advantage of when shopping for Japanese pens then? Are we being screwed over?

 

I'd love to hear from everyone, whether you are a consumer like me or actually work in any capacity in the industry, because as I'd written above: I'd like to be enlightened if there is a legitimate reason for these price differences and if there isn't then why the bloody hell are we being robbed? (That's frankly what it is in my eyes at this point)

 

Thank you everybody for reading, I look forward to your posts!

 

PS: Please bear in mind that I took only a brief look into Japan's Amazon, so if I'm wrong in any way tell me kindly!

 

 

[tryphon]

This thread could fill a book. It is impossible to compare prices between any two Countries. Even more impossible if you look at discounted prices that can be found online. Pens made in Japan are sold to Japanese shops directly from the factory. There are no additional costs to be borne by the retailer. An American (or any international) distributor has overheads, pays taxes on his sales, pays at least 6% import duty, transport from Japan (quite expensive), has to pay his staff and still leave an acceptable margin for the retailer. Japan is an expensive Country and the discount structure offered to distributors is not particularly attractive. I know, I used to import and distribute a major Japanese Brand. It's just the way it is.

Edited October 14, 2015 by tryphon

[hbdk]

 

In most of Europe it is a question of taxes and customs. If I have to import and sell a pen from Japan, the Danish Government will make sure that the price doubles before it lands on my desk and then I'll have to add sales tax (25% here in Denmark). And I can't even do it myself, but will have to use some pro who knows his/hers way around the import system - that is not cheap either. If I import and sell a pen from another EU country, I only have to add sales tax.

[rafapa]

Then, why the same does not apply to European pens going to US? Or taiwanese pens sold in Europe?

[tamiya]

FPs are luxury goods price is merely the most retailer thinks you'll willingly pay

[tryphon]

Then, why the same does not apply to European pens going to US? Or taiwanese pens sold in Europe?

European companies allow a greater margin for the distributor. Same with Taiwanese companies.

[cobalt]

I guess prices are what prices are and in many cases reflect high taxation just to be in business (like VAT, but keep in mind it is a end-buyer tax much like sales taxes in the US and Canada). There are also state subsidies, salary levels, incentives and tax rebates for overseas buyers that make products look cheaper until you pay the import customs charges, and it all goes back up again. Exchange rates fluctuate and what cost $100 last week can cost $125 this week on an

exchange rate basis.

 

HBDK's prices look normal to me. Japanese pens don't look that good when exchange rates calculated. A 150 US dollar pen should cost me under 100 pounds sterling, but it I doubt it would.

 

I'll refrain from getting drawn into the discussion on childish pens, when most of the manufacturers seem to have lost their way on design (oh, just got drawn in!).

 

But we are paying way too much. Think of taxation as a type of expropriation of private wealth, then it all makes sense.

[LadyS]

Thank you for your replies so far!

 

It could indeed fill a book. As a consumer it angers me quite a bit though.

 

Tryphon & hbdk: that's what I figured actually, to some extent at least. Thank you for your input. The Danish government in this instance is very consumer unfriendly (to take Denmark as an example here) and stifles competition actually. Also foreign brands are discouraged from growing for example, as few people are willing to pay premium prices for budget products.

 

tamiya: this is true and applies to every industry, eg cosmetics and clothing. The same principles are at play everywhere. Which is sad, especially considering the necessity for every industry: so every budget should be taken into account and fairly represented.

 

cobalt: it's too easy to get drawn in! hehe

 

Just to further illustrate what I mean and why I'm so surprised and chose to post here:

 

Lamy Safari in black: costs in Germany €13.87 (in a shop it would come in at c €15-€17), in the UK it's €17.54 and Japan €17.98.

 

When we look at Japanese FPs and their cost in Japan, we see that they cost in Europe c 50% more. And yet the Sailor HighAce Neo costs in Japan ‎£5.15 and can be found in the UK for as little as ‎£8.40. The price here is fair compared to other more up-market models and shows me, as the consumer (ie someone unfamiliar with the machinations behind the curtain), that c 50% price hikes are unnecessary and avoidable.

 

I did think that governments dictate price increase, plus tax, plus import duties, plus salaries, plus profit, plus whatnot; but the examples of the Safari and HighAce are what actually takes me aback. Quink in Japan costs ‎£2.94 (sold by a Japanese retailer!), so here again: Quink could easily cost £10 in Japan (due to tax, import etc etc) and yet you compare the price with the UK, it's ridiculous! And Sailor four seasons ink is roughly (or almost) the same price as their standard blue, black and blue black in Japan, but the four seasons is sold here at a higher price than their regular ink (marketing and the luxury appeal, I know, I know).

 

And that is what does not make sense. If the price differences were at least consistent and truly reflected import and tax etc. But they don't appear to. I truly don't want to step on any seller's toes, as I know that retailers do what they have to and they want to stay affloat of course, and abide by their respective country's law etc, so I really don't want to seem like I'm accusing all retailers to be greedy or anything like that, but this inconsistency in prices seems weird and arbitrary (just by the examples here), which is why I came here to see what you all have to say.

[AlanO]

One thing I always forget when comparing US and UK prices (and lamenting that prices in dollars usually translate to the same figure in pounds) is that US prices are quoted exclusive of sales tax while UK prices are quoted inclusive of 20% VAT - perhaps not directly relevant to the specific comparison here, but it's all part of the equation.

 

Alan

[Xozzen]

I really get what you're saying - Why does a 200 euro japanese pen cost me 400 euro to buy from a retailer when I can import it myself for about 200 plus maybe 60 for tax and customs.

 

Where does the additional cost come from? I know the retailers want to make some money aswell, but that is no explaination for a price increase that drastic.

 

And about the childish design, I really agree for some brands. Especially pelikan and lamy, even the lami safari can seem a bit childish to me (not nearly as professional as one of the many pilots or sailors).

[Sasha Royale]

The few German brands are quite excellent quality. I think the designs are modern-istically arty .

Yup, they look cheap and toy-like. Unfortunately, European countries have unnecessarily high postage rates, brutal customs charges, and protective tariffs. Importing a Japanese-made pen includes a brutal rape by the government parasites.

 

Many Ebay-ers won't deal with European sellers and buyers. Pity.

[TassoBarbasso]

Then, why the same does not apply to European pens going to US? Or taiwanese pens sold in Europe?

 

It does. I pay almost 33% custom taxes on US imported goods.

[TassoBarbasso]

The argument of 'import' ceases to apply when you consider that European brands cost in Japan about as much as in Europe, so how can Japanese brands cost so much more in Europe? Aren't we taken advantage of when shopping for Japanese pens then? Are we being screwed over?

 

Technically it doesn't; it depends on the agreements between the two states. Japan may have accepted to import EU goods removing custom fees, but this does not necessarily mean that the EU has agreed to the same.

[TassoBarbasso]

European countries have unnecessarily high postage rates, brutal customs charges, and protective tariffs. Importing a Japanese-made pen includes a brutal rape by the government parasites.

 

Well... to be fair, we do use those euros to finance some of the best welfare systems in the world, and the institutional structure that for the first time in centuries has managed to keep Europeans from cutting each other's throats, you know

[rwilsonedn]

Avoiding the whole topic of taxation and import duties, one still has to consider differences in markets and in distribution channels. If there is heavy price competition in a market--children's pens, for instance--prices for imported goods will have to be low, even if it means subsidizing them with higher margins on something else. Or you withdraw from that portion of the market. For adult pens, where MB and Pelikan have created an enormously high price umbrella in the EU, there is much more room for everyone to make money. If you want lower prices on Sailor pens in the EU, talk to MB about their pricing.

Then there is the channel. Every time a product changes hands on its way to you, the new hand wants a bit of margin. If you buy direct from a Japanese Internet retailer, there may only be one or two people between you and the factory. If you are buying from a retail store in a small European or UK town, there may be seven or eight folks: exporters, importers, distributors, shippers, and the retailer, all of whom are making a little money, paying their expenses, and paying taxes on the transaction.

Some people respond to this (as to taxes) by saying "I'm being robbed by strangers! Others feel that each of those folks is providing a service and deserves to be compensated for it. A lot depends on your attitude. But in our increasingly globalized world you are always free to shop on the Internet or to learn another language and travel to the country of origin to shop there. For better or worse, that fact is changing life for all those people who live by providing the services in the middle.

ron

[Notgatherox]

It also has to do with how the companies set prices for the various markets.

 

Take the Iroshizuku inks as an example - Pilot Japan sets a price for Japan at x yen a bottle, but sends it to Pilot USA and tells them they have to sell each bottle to their retailers at y yen (converted to dollars, of course) a bottle.

 

And I'm willing to bet that y is at least 2 times of x, hence the current prices.

 

As to why the Japanese price their products like that, that's anybody's guess.

 

 

~Epic

Edited October 14, 2015 by Lord Epic

[max dog]

Japanese trade deficit probably has a lot to do with it. Japan exports a heck of a lot more than they import, so European nations and US govt slap big tax on Japanese products. That is the effect we see with Japanese fountain pens retailed abroad.

[Intellidepth]

In Australia, retail markup is close to double what I pay if I order a pen direct from online Japanese sellers personally. So nearly 100% markup. Part would be customs, part paying for prime location retail rental space.

[fabri00]

The price you see in japanese websites is a price for export, without vat. If you go to Japan (as I do every year for business), you will pay in a shop higher prive because also vat is added.

 

If you compare that price with local price in europe you have duty (5/6%) and vat (22% in Italy) on top of that, plus maybe a margin of profit for 2 more steps: the importer and the seller.

 

So, price without vat in japan compared with regular price in Europe makes in fact a big difference.

But if for example you buy from japanese seller, your shipment get stopped by custom, and then you are requsted to pay vat, dutiy, and custom charge, then the price become allmost the same as european regular sale price.

[Bo Bo Olson]

If I were to send a pen from Germany to America to have it's nib reground, I should first even if it's a German pen especially if it is an American one go to customs first, so I don't get import taxed on my own pen. I will be taxed 20% on the cost of the repair or grinding.

 

Until Amazon took over the Japanese ink, I could not afford to spend $50-75 on a bottle of ink....now down to 15-20 I think. I've not looked. It was so much cheaper in the US....at first I thought all those folks were rich, with their Japanese inks.

I never took time to learn all the funny names....because of the unfunny price.

 

Having 50 inks really don't need any more. Especially that expensive Faber Castell one....

C'dA also, now over priced*, then add the high Frank price.

 

*In the old C'dA inks had been over priced in the States I assumed they were here also. I was wrong, only 8 euros a bottle....but they had discontinued them, or I'd have more.

 

I can buy a new German car much cheaper in Denmark or France than in Germany. It took an EU law to make the German factory brand repair shops to work the warentee, because it was bought out of country.

 

I only buy Vintage pens, first they are affordable even the high end ones. Such as at an auction I got a almost mint '70's Large MB146 for 150 Euro start price....new cost lots more and I did not really want the pen, but with no pen bidders at the auction. Took it as a steal.

What I had wanted wanted and eventually got at the same auction house later was a medium-small '50's 146, with a semi-flex/maxi-semi-flex nib. I do chase the nib.

 

Vintage pens have the better nib, real guts and are better balanced. I suggest getting some of them cheap old used pens, instead of wasting money on new ones.....even used new ones are better priced. If one must have a lesser Modern pen.

Edited October 15, 2015 by Bo Bo Olson