Tell Me About How Urushi Feels

[eloquentogre]

What does Urushi feel like in hand? Tell me about it. Is it a fingerprint magnet? Is it smooth, or does it kind of have that slight grippy quality of celluloid and some resins?

[Algester]

question what kind of Urushi... Urushi finishes varies from region to region

from Kyoto, Negoro, Echizen, Wajima, etc...

the most basic would be Echizen-nuri and Wajima-nuri which has a smooth-highgloss finish which are well... fingerprint magnets

I have a teacup finished with Urushi but I'm not sure where it hails from it has a rough texture

Fuki-Urushi which is what you may call your typical "varnish" is what is applied to the briar wood series from Nakaya and Platinum

Edited October 13, 2015 by Algester

[Keyless Works]

I think celluloid has a sort of buttery, oily quality that urushi doesn't quite have. Urushi is smooth but not quite like celluloid. It feels more like standard plastic to me. The appeal of urushi is that it is a hard wearing finish that gains a patina over time. I have seen old well-used urushi lacquer pens and it is amazing how the paint holds up. You use a plastic/celluloid pen a lot and you will really see it. With urushi you have to look hard to see wear.

[jjlax10]

I have heard hit described in a similar vein as panna cotta, with a comparison to female anatomy.

[pkoko]

I would think of it as the lightest, smoothest pen material. It is also very shinny & scratch resistant. I consider it to be an extra nice version of "precious resin that MB uses".

[jar]

Urushi is simply another lacquer. It is used on light pens and heavy pens, on wood bases, hard rubber, plastic, metals, most any substrate. Like most lacquers it will provide a hard shiny surface that is also warm to hand.

 

Beyond the material differences of the substrate, how the urushi was applied and cured make the biggest difference in the final product. A surface coated with many thin layers of urushi and allowed to cure between layers, to have each layer polished, will result in a final product with great depth and shine. Another trait that determines quality is of course detail and colors. An object coated with a single color urushi is easier to make than one that requires precise placement of different colors of urushi.

 

ST Dupont's Vertigo pattern Laque du Chine

http://www.fototime.com/C5EC72F5FCB3D5F/large.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/0747B2581F58114/large.jpg

As mentioned above, urushi is also a very hard surface. Here is another ST Dupont lighter that has Laque du Chine. Note the wear on the hard brass body compared to the Laque du Chine.

 

http://www.fototime.com/10A64D294C60876/large.jpg

Finally, here is an example of a counterfeit Vertigo lighter next to the real thing. When just a photo of the fake was seen it looked good enough to fool me, but when seen side-by side the difference between just lacquer and urushi was obvious.

 

http://www.fototime.com/7C1287FDFFE5D42/large.jpg

[freakman]

Urushi is simply another lacquer. It is used on light pens and heavy pens, on wood bases, hard rubber, plastic, metals, most any substrate. Like most lacquers it will provide a hard shiny surface that is also warm to hand.

 

Beyond the material differences of the substrate, how the urushi was applied and cured make the biggest difference in the final product. A surface coated with many thin layers of urushi and allowed to cure between layers, to have each layer polished, will result in a final product with great depth and shine. Another trait that determines quality is of course detail and colors. An object coated with a single color urushi is easier to make than one that requires precise placement of different colors of urushi.

 

ST Dupont's Vertigo pattern Laque du Chine

http://www.fototime.com/D29302A7538D82F/orig.jpg

Lacquer du Chine has lower composition of urushiol comparing to urushi used in Japan.

And their origin may vary. Most of these were imported from China or Vietnam and is not as good as the Japanese ones.

The feeling of urushi may vary because the base material is different. Personally I prefer the ones with wood and ebonite base.

Edited October 13, 2015 by freakman

[jar]

Lacquer du Chine has lower composition of urushiol comparing to urushi used in Japan.

And their origin may vary. Most of these were imported from China or Vietnam and is not as good as the Japanese ones.

The feeling of urushi may vary because the base material is different. Personally I prefer the ones with wood and ebonite base.

 

Many will agree with you, but I have examples from Japan as well as examples of Laque du Chine done by European makers and find little difference between the two when it comes to urushi. I do prefer the European fountain pens by far.

[freakman]

 

Many will agree with you, but I have examples from Japan as well as examples of Laque du Chine done by European makers and find little difference between the two when it comes to urushi. I do prefer the European fountain pens by far.

I agree. The Yukari Royale feels almost the same with Olympio and Montparnasse.

But when it comes to more complex patterns and brighter colors. Urushi looks better.

It's sad that Dupont don't produce any good LE pens now.

[Algester]

however because of how the Urushi market works right now a 2007 survey shows 95% of the stuff hails from china the base coats (1-15 coats) are actually used with China imported Urushi while the last coats use the Japanese Urushi (with 2% market share) since technically the base coats wont be seen and is only used to fortify the entire piece being lacquered over and then Japanese Urushi as the top coat because they just polish better

(say all you want but thats now it works now)

unless someone would really like to push back the share of Japan has with their Urushi but if the last person who makes their taps(カンナ) die... well thats probably the last generation... case in point there's only 2 people left in Japan who can make Kanna or taps 1 of them is the other's apprentice... you know I want to try to understand and consume all Urushi related publication but I doubt it can be done

as people say the Urushi wont vanish yet since Urushi masters are still capable of having apprentices the scary part is the gatherers if people still want "authentic" Urushi from Japan the entire thing is labor intensive with careful attention to environmental detail at least its consistent to all videos I see about Urushi gathering in Japan old men climbing trees scraping every single sap for 6 months

Edited October 13, 2015 by Algester

[freakman]

however because of how the Urushi market works right now a 2007 survey shows 95% of the stuff hails from china the base coats (1-15 coats) are actually used with China imported Urushi while the last coats use the Japanese Urushi (with 2% market share) since technically the base coats wont be seen and is only used to fortify the entire piece being lacquered over and then Japanese Urushi as the top coat because they just polish better

(say all you want but thats now it works now)

unless someone would really like to push back the share of Japan has with their Urushi but if the last person who makes their taps(カンナ) die... well thats probably the last generation... case in point there's only 2 people left in Japan who can make Kanna or taps 1 of them is the other's apprentice... you know I want to try to understand and consume all Urushi related publication but I doubt it can be done

as people say the Urushi wont vanish yet since Urushi masters are still capable of having apprentices the scary part is the gatherers if people still want "authentic" Urushi from Japan the entire thing is labor intensive with careful attention to environmental detail at least its consistent to all videos I see about Urushi gathering in Japan old men climbing trees scraping every single sap for 6 months

Yes, but some of the urushi imported from China are refined so the concentration of urushiol is higher.

Here in Fujian, China. The lacquerwares use a completely different process to manufacture and the touch is not so warm comparing to Japanese ones.(But also a hell lot cheaper)

[Algester]

I dont think you can increase the concentration of Urushiol... since it pretty much depends on the plant's health during the harvest season unless you add stuff chemically... but why would you add that stuff when the base stuff is already nasty as it is

plus processing Urushi involves a lot of mechanical processes that end up with a chemical reaction as your just adding pigment and heat and the entire think is just a hydro carbon chain just like oil

Edited October 13, 2015 by Algester

[Keyless Works]

This is an interesting discussion. So are modern Urushi pens like those made by Nakaya and Namiki 100% Japanese Urushi? There are so many cheap lacquer products on the market that it seems likely that there would be plenty of room for higher end pens to be part of that 2% figure.

[Algester]

This is an interesting discussion. So are modern Urushi pens like those made by Nakaya and Namiki 100% Japanese Urushi? There are so many cheap lacquer products on the market that it seems likely that there would be plenty of room for higher end pens to be part of that 2% figure.

that is probably the question best left unanswered?

cheaper lacquer products may stem from that lacquer maybe already been artificially been manufactured I read recently that cheaper Echizen-nuri are already using plastic but I think thats for the sake of low cost profit something like 10USD while yes there are still authentic Urushi-wares out there but how can you know which is truly made in Japan with Japanese stuff when Chinese Urushi is 75% cheaper considering a base coat urushi from china is like 1000 yen compared to base coat japanese urushi coasting 5000 yen, and yet for their purpose they are just the same...

 

but let's go back into topic the feels of urushi is pretty much depends on the finish the standard finish which would be based on Echizen-nuri,Wajima-nuri will be smooth to the touch but will be finger print magnet so from time to time you may just want to wipe it with a micro fiber cloth and or of similar cloth like material

Urushi with certain finishes on them like Ishimenuri/Marble grain finish(石目塗り） would be rougher to the touch this is one of the nuri finishes I know that isnt based on a place it's known for but for the texture it gives off

I am however not sure about henwari-nuri/Changing finish （変わり塗り） considering I havent touch an object given that finish but I think it would still depend on how it was made and if it was given an additional top coat and then polished to a glossy finish pilot had made one pen in the past and it seems to look like something similar to Ishimenuri finish which would mean you could feel the changes of the Urushi, correction it was the Ishimenuri finish opps... :X

currently I'm checking about Negoro-nuri（根来塗） all I know it came from Negoro temple and is finished with a shuu-urushi finish after coating the object with 20-25 coats from the base coat to a black coat so what would be Negoro-nuri (値ごろ塗) would be... unless this is a clever pun on Nakaya's part... 値ごろ塗 translate as something "cheap" if not reasonably priced... would this be the reading of those "broken" urushi finishes that Nakaya does? if so this is a hybrid of the Ishimenuri and the Tamenuri(溜塗り） finishes tamenuri being the most basic of all finishes again seen in Wajima-nuri, Echizen-nuri etc etc...

 

if someone finds fault in my japanese and translations please do correct me

Edited October 13, 2015 by Algester

[Keyless Works]

I guess Urushi is like Italian olive oil...sad

[Algester]

I guess Urushi is like Italian olive oil...sad

I would say ask the direct source of Urushi information as I try to dig up the situation they say the entire system is complex as it is complicated ask any East Asian Lacquer ware sales person perhaps they would give you some insight Edited October 13, 2015 by Algester

[Keyless Works]

I emailed Nakaya and Pilot about this lol...hope I am not offending anyone. If they respond I will let you know what they say.

[Keyless Works]

As an update I heard back from Nakaya and Namiki re whether or not they use 100% Japanese Urushi and predictably Nakaya was quick to respond with this:

 

 

Thank you very much for your inquiry but we do not

open the information on our material.

Thank you very much for your understanding.

 

 

I heard back from Pilot today:

 

 

Thank you for your email message. We appreciate the opportunity to address your inquiry.

We apologize for the delay. Your email was forwarded to Pilot Japan to advise. They have advised that the Namiki Lacquer (Urushi) is 100% Japanese. Japanese Lacquer is a natural coating processed from the sap taken from the sumac tree in Japan.

Thank you for your patience. We value your loyalty and investment in Pilot products.

[hari317]

There is a very brief speculation in the older FPN posts about the Nakaya urushi antecedents and how it compares to Dani trio and Namiki etc, many years back. I had fully expected the Namiki reply to state 100% Japanese. they specifically state that on the Namiki japan website as well. If lucky you get what you pay for... it is very unusual to get more than what you pay for. Best, hari

[hari317]

What does Urushi feel like in hand? Tell me about it. Is it a fingerprint magnet? Is it smooth, or does it kind of have that slight grippy quality of celluloid and some resins?

It depends. e.g. Roiro migaki feels different in the hand to the Ultra glass-glossy (nakaya) Tame nuri.

 

I like the simpler finishes more, both visually as well as the hand feel. YMMV.

 

However even though Urushi has the capability to be very smooth, it does not feel slippery at all.

 

HTH.