What Is The Pilot Custom 823 Made Of?

[Megaloblatta]

I would like to buy a new demonstrator pen to replace my TWSBI 540/580 hybrid and have been doing quite a lot of research into pison/vac demonstrators and the plastics they are made from. I am trying to find a pen about the size of the 540, which costs less than $300 and is NOT made from polycarbonate. TWSBIs are made from this plastic which is very well known for developing stress cracks. From the reading I have done it would seem that acrylic is much less prone to cracking, and many great pens are made from it, including the Pilot Custom 92, which I already have, but which is a bit small and light for me. Anyway, I thought I found the ideal pen at last - the Pilot 823. It has had many excellent reviews (although not from sbrebrown

), BUT horror of horrors I have also come across numerous reports of cracking (e.g. https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/284258-a-jenny-pilot-823/ https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/272735-repair-for-a-pilot-custom-823-bought-secondhand/ https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/64197-my-823-needs-lots-of-help/). The question I can't find an answer to is: what plastic is it made from? If anyone knows for certain then please let me know - thanks! Given the reports of cracking I wouldn't be surprised if it was polycarbonate (yuck!)... Incidentally, sbrebrown and others say that the vacuum mechanism of this pen is exactly the same one as in the TWSBI Vac 700 - is this true? Strange that the pen can be taken apart with the TWSBI wrench.... If it's made out of polycarbonate I might start to suspect that the body is being made for Pilot but non other than TWSBI... (pure speculation of course...).

[Notgatherox]

I would like to buy a new demonstrator pen to replace my TWSBI 540/580 hybrid and have been doing quite a lot of research into pison/vac demonstrators and the plastics they are made from. I am trying to find a pen about the size of the 540, which costs less than $300 and is NOT made from polycarbonate. TWSBIs are made from this plastic which is very well known for developing stress cracks. From the reading I have done it would seem that acrylic is much less prone to cracking, and many great pens are made from it, including the Pilot Custom 92, which I already have, but which is a bit small and light for me. Anyway, I thought I found the ideal pen at last - the Pilot 823. It has had many excellent reviews (although not from sbrebrown

), BUT horror of horrors I have also come across numerous reports of cracking (e.g. https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/284258-a-jenny-pilot-823/ https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/272735-repair-for-a-pilot-custom-823-bought-secondhand/ https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/64197-my-823-needs-lots-of-help/). The question I can't find an answer to is: what plastic is it made from? If anyone knows for certain then please let me know - thanks! Given the reports of cracking I wouldn't be surprised if it was polycarbonate (yuck!)... Incidentally, sbrebrown and others say that the vacuum mechanism of this pen is exactly the same one as in the TWSBI Vac 700 - is this true? Strange that the pen can be taken apart with the TWSBI wrench.... If it's made out of polycarbonate I might start to suspect that the body is being made for Pilot but non other than TWSBI... (pure speculation of course...).

 

It doesn't feel like polycarbonate to me - more like resin, which is also a plastic. (Not saying that it is necessarily resin, I just said it feels like resin. If I'm wrong, I stand corrected.)

 

Yes, the vacuum mechanism is the same as the Vac700 - I've heard people calling the Vac a poor man's 823.

 

 

 

~Epic

[menganito]

It is made of the same material which dreams are made of... Just kidding , I don't know for sure what kind of plastic is made of. I bought one last week I still don't have it. I am curious about this too.

About cracking issues I have read it has happened to people who disassembled the pen. And AFAIK pilot strongly recommend not to do that. Maybe it is a strong pressure put into the barrel. I don't think TWSBI make the body for pilot. It will be that coincidentally it has the same screw size number.

Edited October 1, 2015 by menganito

[Megaloblatta]

Plastics are synthetic resins. 'Precious resin' is apparently acrylic. Acrylics include lucite, which is very long lasting - which is why collectors and others often embed precious objects inside lucite blocks to keep them safe and display them. Also see http://www.richardspens.com/?page=ref/design/plastics.htm

[Megaloblatta]

The Pilot 823 can crack even if it isn't 'abused' - see comment on Amazon UK which reads "Cracked the barrel in the first year and Pilot repaired it under warranty and put in a note to NEVER disassemble the pen. I didn't and this was my travel pen for the next two years; took hundreds of flight and to work every day. Hard use but not abusive. Pen cracked again at both ends and leaked badly. Sent it in for repair and the estimate was $350! Not sure why they won't just replace barrel."

 

Personally I don't want to spend such a lot of cash on a pen that may very well crack, like my TWSBI!

Edited October 1, 2015 by Megaloblatta

[Aramchek]

I don't know either which plastic they use, but "yuck" is not the word I'd use for polycarbonate. Some of its many many uses are fighter jet canopies, bulletproof "glass", and plain old DVDs, which can take an impressive amount of punishment without cracking considering how thin it is (keep in mind that there are other layers as well in a DVD).

 

Like the other posters, I've never heard of the 823 cracking unless it had been disassembled. My understanding is that the TWSBI cracking issues was caused by a)design issues b)the coating, and how it interacted with the plastic both chemically, and mechanically.

 

It is highly unlikely that TWSBI makes the 823. While they made pens for other companies for quite some time before they started making pens under their own name, the 823 predates the vac 700 by quite a few years, and the vacuum filling system has been around for decades.

 

(B.T.W, just got a Custom 92. Great pen)

[Flounder]

Slime and Snails, and Puppy Dog Tails. Thunder and Lightning...

 

Things I have read:

1. 'Pilot says not to disassemble the pen'.

2. '823 cracks are caused by people disassembling the pen'.

3. 'cracks have occured on 823's that have never been disassembled'

4. 'cracks propogate from injection molding seams where the barrel is under pressure from the back end seal'.

[Megaloblatta]

I don't know either which plastic they use, but "yuck" is not the word I'd use for polycarbonate. Some of its many many uses are fighter jet canopies, bulletproof "glass", and plain old DVDs, which can take an impressive amount of punishment without cracking considering how thin it is (keep in mind that there are other layers as well in a DVD).

 

Like the other posters, I've never heard of the 823 cracking unless it had been disassembled. My understanding is that the TWSBI cracking issues was caused by a)design issues b)the coating, and how it interacted with the plastic both chemically, and mechanically.

 

It is highly unlikely that TWSBI makes the 823. While they made pens for other companies for quite some time before they started making pens under their own name, the 823 predates the vac 700 by quite a few years, and the vacuum filling system has been around for decades.

 

(B.T.W, just got a Custom 92. Great pen)

"Yuck!" when used for fountain pens! Polycarbonate is an amazing plastic but suffers from stress cracking - which becomes a problem with intricate and fine mouldings e.g pen threads. I have read many specialist plastic webpages and that's the take-home message.

[pkoko]

Honestly, I have yet to crack a pen.... I have the 823 and Vac 700. The 823 is miles better pen. Better balance & nib/feed. Personally, if cracking is a concern to you; I would get the TWSBI because of their excellent customer service.

[dfo]

"Yuck!" when used for fountain pens! Polycarbonate is an amazing plastic but suffers from stress cracking - which becomes a problem with intricate and fine mouldings e.g pen threads. I have read many specialist plastic webpages and that's the take-home message.

Lamy 2000 is made of makrolon polycarbonate and is definitely not yucky. No problem with cracking.

Edited October 2, 2015 by dfo

[rdh]

LOL. The TWSBI is essentially a low-cost copy of the Pilot Custom 823 for people who want a vacuum filler for 20% of the cost of the 823. The TWSBI was initially made many years after the original. Of course, you could also say that the 823 is a copy of the MB 146, but there are a number of differences. I have an amber 823. If you look really hard, you can see some scratches on the barrel if you post it. The plastic has a different look and feel than the plastic on the Pilot Custom 74: another really nice pen. Although you can talk about the filling system and the composition of the body of the pen, the real reason to get the 823 is the nib. It is a very large gold nib that has a springy feel when writing. I bought mine used, 3 1/2 years ago and have used it continuously. No cracks yet.

 

Dave

[Megaloblatta]

Lamy 2000 is made of makrolon polycarbonate and is definitely not yucky. No problem with cracking.

Yes, it is much more resistant to cracking because Makrolon is polycarbonate reinforced with glass fiber - see https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/227631-lamy-2000-and-the-origins-of-lamy-design/

[Dr.Grace]

Years ago, my 823 barrel cracked when I reassembled it. But after Pilot replaced the barrel, I have not disassembled the pen, and it has not cracked.

[Megaloblatta]

Years ago, my 823 barrel cracked when I reassembled it. But after Pilot replaced the barrel, I have not disassembled the pen, and it has not cracked.

Sadly there are reports of cracking from people who say they have not disassembled the 823. Whether they were lying or not we can't say. Anyway many people must disassemble their Pilot 92s, yet cracking does not seem to be a major problem with this pen - at least I can't find much on the Web. That's why I think the plastic is different in the 823 - perhaps polycarbonate similar to TWSBIs. Unfortunately without sophisticated equipment it is not easy to tell what plastic it is - there are tests, but they are not the sort you would want to use on your treasured pen - see http://www.ehow.co.uk/how_8674192_identify-acrylic-polycarbonate.html

Edited October 2, 2015 by Megaloblatta

[menganito]

To those who pilot has replaced something on this pen. Was it under warranty, out of it? Did you have to pay something? And did you have to send it to Japan, for those who don't live there?

Thanks.

[Megaloblatta]

To those who pilot has replaced something on this pen. Was it under warranty, out of it? Did you have to pay something? And did you have to send it to Japan, for those who don't live there?

Thanks.

From reports I've read Pilot repaired or replaced the pens if they were inside the three year guarantee period. If the damage happened outside the period then Pilot charged litterally hundreds of dollars to repair the 823s.... This is an additional thing that puts me off buying one.

Edited October 2, 2015 by Megaloblatta

[Megaloblatta]

It is interesting that the Parker "51" pen, which was made from acrylic (Lucite), seems to have survived pretty well, even though it was first marketed in 1941. Tens of millions of these pens were produced over several decades yet there are not huge numbers of reports of cracking issues on the Web. It would be interesting to know what proportion of them have survived without cracking. I somehow doubt that many TWSBIs will be uncracked in 75 years time....

 

I can tell my grandchildren - "I've had this TWSBI 540 for 20 years. It's only had 10 new caps, 15 new barrels...."

 

This page about plastics and how they degrade over time might be of interest to some: http://www.modip.ac.uk/resources/curators_guide/A-Z_plastics

 

And here is a nice video about the Parker "51" pen:

https://youtu.be/0e5VnbasHgY

Edited October 2, 2015 by Megaloblatta

[AltecGreen]

Sadly there are reports of cracking from people who say they have not disassembled the 823. Whether they were lying or not we can't say. Anyway many people must disassemble their Pilot 92s, yet cracking does not seem to be a major problem with this pen - at least I can't find much on the Web. That's why I think the plastic is different in the 823 - perhaps polycarbonate similar to TWSBIs. Unfortunately without sophisticated equipment it is not easy to tell what plastic it is - there are tests, but they are not the sort you would want to use on your treasured pen - see http://www.ehow.co.uk/how_8674192_identify-acrylic-polycarbonate.html

I think you fail to understand that polycarbonate is not a single specific plastic. It is a name for a group of related polymers that, not surprisingly, contain a carbonate groups. The exact properties can be adjusted in the formulation and still be a polycarbonate. Thus, the properties can depend on the grade of material used. For example, the cockpit of the F-22 fighter is made from a single piece of polycarbonate and is quite strong. Polycarbonate is also used in making bulletproof glass. In general polycarbonate has high strength but low resistance to scratches. Acrylic is more brittle but has higher optical transparency and higher scratch resistance. You get what you pay for. One potential problem with polycarbonate is that is it known to be susceptible to stress corrosion cracking when attacked by another chemical. Polycarbonate is sensitive to attack by alkalis but not acids.

[menganito]

You get what you pay for. One potential problem with polycarbonate is that is it known to be susceptible to stress corrosion cracking when attacked by another chemical. Polycarbonate is sensitive to attack by alkalis but not acids.

 

Interesting could it be that some exotic inks could contain some alkaloids? or that it is not a possible ingredient to make an ink. Maybe that is the reason some brands advice to only use their own ink.

[jmccarty3]

Polycarbonate is sensitive to attack by alkalis but not acids.

 

Isn't Pilot ink slightly alkaline? (I certainly hope there are no inks that contain alkaloids!) I have heard that one must be careful when choosing inks with certain pens that are made of celluloid. I must say that all my Pilot pens write famously well with Pilot or Iroshizuku inks.