Why Is "fine" So Rarely Fine?

[Kataphract]

It's not dogma, rather it is called reality. You want uniformity where no uniformity exists.

Yup, the only dogma is someone insisting on things being the way that they want it to be, whether it is or isn't.

[Water Ouzel]

Not huffy at all (kindly re-read) but I part company with those who attempt to put words into my mouth, eg, "What you are saying then, is why is .35 mm finer than a... .35 mm?"

 

When you do something like that, you lose all cred with me.

Why? It's a very reasonable example of what others have been pointing out to you.

 

Is an automobile light, medium or heavy that weighs 3500 lbs? It depends. Ask the manufacturer...

Sports car, sedan, commute car, truck. It depends.

 

It's the same with pen makers; one's F nib might lay down a .35mm line, another's EF might do the same. Etc. Etc.

 

You just need to learn the behaviors of the various vendors. (Modulo ink and paper effects, of course.)

[jar]

Maybe this will help.

 

Here is an ad I came across for Sheaffer PFM inlaid nib choices. There were five different "Fine" nibs offered and each actually represented a range and not an absolute width.

 

http://www.fototime.com/5F744AC23467421/large.jpg

and here are the Sheaffer Triumph nib sizes; six different varieties of "fine" nibs.

http://www.fototime.com/A48357163977607/large.jpg

And remember that each of those represents a range and not an absolute width.

[NewPenMan]

Why? It's a very reasonable example of what others have been pointing out to you.

 

It was stated, words to the effect that I expected a 0.3 nib to write differently than a 0.3 nib. I never said anything remotely like that, and to attribute that to me is rude to me, to the subject, and to others trying to glean some information from the thread.

 

I don't need to be provided with examples; either the question can be answered or it can't. Apparently, it can't, and I don't need to go on a weird journey into the abstruse.

 

I am coming away knowing, experientially, what I need to know: That Japanese fine is the nib for me, whatever and however that is measured, and that all other nibs manufactured elsewhere are too squishy and inconsistent for me to waste my time with, regardless of what high-level craftsmanship and materials are used to create them.

 

I respect yours and others' standpoint on the nib gauge issue, and I am trying best I can to disengage from it. Color me, "done widdit."

 

Consider yourselves as having conveyed a deep message of great import.

 

Thank you, heartily!

 

npm

Edited September 18, 2015 by NewPenMan

[Water Ouzel]

I respect yours and others' standpoint on the nib gauge issue, and I am trying best I can to disengage from it. Color me, "done widdit."

So when you cease responding to posts on this thread, you won't mind if we continue discussing the issue amongst ourselves? Excellent.

[NewPenMan]

Please do...you have my blessing and full encouragement.

 

;-)

[jar]

As a point of interest, I have found that the fine and extra fine nibs on my older Sheaffer and Parker pens put down a fine line that may even be finer than I find on modern Japanese pens. I can't seem to find it right now and will keep looking but I seem to remember a table from Sheaffer someone posted showing the range they used in the 70s for different nib designations and that there was some overlap even there.

 

Google helps old memories. Thanks Ron.

[Kataphract]

So when you cease responding to posts on this thread, you won't mind if we continue discussing the issue amongst ourselves? Excellent.

[thumbs up]

[Kataphract]

As a point of interest, I have found that the fine and extra fine nibs on my older Sheaffer and Parker pens put down a fine line that may even be finer than I find on modern Japanese pens. I can't seem to find it right now and will keep looking but I seem to remember a table from Sheaffer someone posted showing the range they used in the 70s for different nib designations and that there was some overlap even there.

 

Google helps old memories. Thanks Ron.

I've always gotten the impression that some vintage pens can have some rather fine (in the non-dogmatic sense of the word) nibs. It's one of those things I hope I can see and experience at the Los Angeles Pen Show when it comes back around again next year. I'll bring along some of my own pens to make comparisons.

[casualmerlinconstant]

I've also noticed modern German pens have a very generous definition of F or EF even by their own original (vintage) standards. My theory is that increasingly people are buying these pens as signature pens and not for hardcore writing. Thus the thicker line looks more impressive without having to worry about impeding note taking. I say this as I've noticed ball point users always want the thinnest line possible, thus logically id have thought they'd want a finer fountain pen line too. And I think they are still the main market as realistically, FPNers probably don't make up a huge chunk of market.

 

ETA: absolutely no evidence or citations for this. Just my speculation.

Edited September 18, 2015 by superglueshoe

[sharonspens]

Yesterday i took a Waterford pen, medium nib, to Fahrney's in Washington DC to get adjusted. The pen was received as a gift, and i find that the flow was too heavy for my liking. The nibmeister there worked with it for a while, then explained to me that the pen is perfectly adjusted; it is a German nib, with a feed and channel set up to allow more flow. That is a trademark of German nibs vs. Japanese nibs; he said if I wanted less flow in a German nibbed pen I should have gotten a fine instead. It was a gift, and thus I had no choice in the matter, of course, but this was good to consider for future reference. I also realized as we chatted about this situation that I have been using one or more of my three Pilots for a good portion of the last few months (a SFM, a stub, and a Binder italiFine). They all lay down a finer line than this Waterford could ever dream of, so it is not a surprise that I have been dissatisfied with the Waterford by comparison!

 

I've recently inked up some of my other stub nibs (also German, now that I think about it), which I believe will help me readjust my writing expectations. And I'll have to adjust expectations again when I pull a couple of vintage pens out next week.

 

Funny to see this topic today, since it was also on my mind.

 

Sharon in Indiana

[sharonspens]

Odd triple post. Sorry.

 

Sharon in Indiana

Edited September 18, 2015 by sharonspens

[sharonspens]

Odd triple post. Sorry.

Edited September 18, 2015 by sharonspens

[Sandy1]

Hi,

 

It may be of interest to take a look at the Tipping Size table prepared by our friends at Classic Fountain Pens: http://www.nibs.com/TippingSizespage.htm

 

I was a bit surprised when comparing the Nakaya/Platinum to Parker dimensions:

• In the XXF grade, N/P is 0.10mm, while P is 0.30mm. Yet when the BB grade is reached, N/P is wider, 1.00 vs 0.95mm!
• Also the difference in width between each grade is much different, not uniformly incremental, which is most obvious in the narrower grades.

As shown by Member jar, Sheaffer used to offer some very narrow nibs, as did Parker: for their immensely popular model 75, the Accountant and Needlepoint were even more narrow than the XF nib. http://www.richardspens.com/?nibs=75_nibs

 

For current production pens, I consider that stock Japanese nibs are the better option, but if I were offered a vintage Sheaffer with a conical Triumph nib, that would be my pick - in good part because of the Waverley 'bend' of the nib which makes even narrowest widths very comfy. (Don't tell my Estie J + 9450! https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/282704-esterbrook-9450-extra-fine-nib-tines/?p=3243610)

 

We are spoiled by having so many wonderful choices!

 

Bye,

S1

 

_ _

These ISO standards may help alleviate symptoms associated with insomnia. http://www.metrication.com/drafting/lines.html

[eloquentogre]

I recently obtained a Pilot Custom 823 with a Waverly nib (my thanks to Yasukazu Hagiwara from Tokyo Pen Shop Quill for making these available), and my god, why have these gone out of fashion? It writes a line comparable to that of my Sailor 1911 MF, which itself is delightfully smooth for such a fine nib, but the WA nib is even smoother. It amazes me every time I write with it. The ink flow is wonderful for such a fine nib too. Wet, but always in perfect control, making the lines glisten like I was laying down precious gemstones from my nib, and giving me nice amounts of sheen in my sheeny inks, on good paper. It's like this nib was made for me, my dream nib. I wish more manufacturers would offer them. I friggin love my Waverly nib. But as now more and more manufacturers are outsourcing their nibs, we're seeing more and more just the standard types. I gotta start throwing more money at Pilot and Sailor for their freak nibs. I just need to find more money for the throwin.

 

Like the original poster, my handwriting is small, and suffers badly with medium and bigger nibs, and I've found it difficult to find fine (by fine I am saying thinner than a Japanese medium or European fine, on average) nibs which weren't scratchy. Even more frustrating getting told back that fine nibs are inherently scratchy, which is absolutely not true. Yes, by their nature you are going to feel more feedback than wider nibs, but I have more than enough good, well shaped and tuned fine nibs that write quite pleasantly, without tooth or annoying "scratch" that I know that's nonsense. It's frustrating, to say the least. But in the end, when I have found such nibs, "fine" ones that write pleasantly and to my specifications, it's delightful. And maybe that exploration aspect is one of the things that I do like about fountain pens, because while the hunt can be a challenge, when you find the right pens, you've got something wonderful that you can put to use every day.

[Sandy Fry]

3 Pages of arguing what defines "fine". Hilarious!

 

David

[Alma]

3 Pages of arguing what defines "fine". Hilarious!

 

David

 

 

+1

 

My two cents: Japanese (extra) fine nibs are only useful for Asian script or bad quality paper or sketching.

It is really hard to find bad quality paper in Germany. I can write with all my medium and broad pens in normal notebooks and on college notebooks if they are produced in Europe (or Germany) because school kids have to write for some years with fountain pens. They just can't afford to sell rubbish paper. No school kid (or their parents) would buy it.

And because most school kids use Pelikan and Lamy medium nibs the paper has to work with them. And if they are grown and if they buy a "real" fountain pen (like M2xx or M4xx or Lamy 2000 or Studio or whatever) they mostly buy again medium nibs. I know no one who enjoys fine Asian nibs, only my artsy friends and another fountain pen collector but these are not the typical customers in Germany. And I would guess that most German fountain pens are sold in Europe, no reason to make an effort for these really fine nibs. I guess Asian fine nibs are not easy to produce either.

[Cryptos]

Well, I am so glad I am not a typical German then! I like extra fine nibs. They suit many of the styles of writing I like to employ. That's just my two pfennigs though.

[Alma]

Well, I am so glad I am not a typical German then! I like extra fine nibs. They suit many of the styles of writing I like to employ. That's just my two pfennigs though.

 

I used my Pilot Prera (fine nib) in a lecture last year and everyone with other pens was like "WTH?!". I study Computer Science and for Mathematics Asian fine nibs are really useful. And I can write marginal notes in every book. Really nice.

[jar]

Hi,

 

It may be of interest to take a look at the Tipping Size table prepared by our friends at Classic Fountain Pens: http://www.nibs.com/TippingSizespage.htm

 

I was a bit surprised when comparing the Nakaya/Platinum to Parker dimensions:

• In the XXF grade, N/P is 0.10mm, while P is 0.30mm. Yet when the BB grade is reached, N/P is wider, 1.00 vs 0.95mm!
• Also the difference in width between each grade is much different, not uniformly incremental, which is most obvious in the narrower grades.

As shown by Member jar, Sheaffer used to offer some very narrow nibs, as did Parker: for their immensely popular model 75, the Accountant and Needlepoint were even more narrow than the XF nib. http://www.richardspens.com/?nibs=75_nibs

 

For current production pens, I consider that stock Japanese nibs are the better option, but if I were offered a vintage Sheaffer with a conical Triumph nib, that would be my pick - in good part because of the Waverley 'bend' of the nib which makes even narrowest widths very comfy. (Don't tell my Estie J + 9450! https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/282704-esterbrook-9450-extra-fine-nib-tines/?p=3243610)

 

We are spoiled by having so many wonderful choices!

 

Bye,

S1

 

_ _

These ISO standards may help alleviate symptoms associated with insomnia. http://www.metrication.com/drafting/lines.html

 

Parker is an interesting example. The US made Parker nibs generally were much finer than the UK made Parker nibs even within the same model and year. Also, I have found far more broad Parker UK made nibs than Parker US made nibs.