Why Is "fine" So Rarely Fine?

[NewPenMan]

Full disclosure:I don't have an extensive collection; 20 or fewer unique models.

 

To me, out seems that only Japanese pens' fine nibs truly lay down a fine lines. To my eye, based on many pen reviews I've seen, no European fine nib creates a line that's truly fine.

 

To me it's extra - curious because examples of western penmanship excellence which all westerners seem to aspire to all feature hairline penstrokes, whether variable or not.

 

Can anyone weigh in on this? Do any German nibs achieve a line as fine as Japanese fine nibs?

[jsolares]

I'm guessing it's because of ballpoints, a lot of people have never learned how to use a fountain pen, and such most of fine nibs are more rounded and easier to use because of that.

I've seen vintage german nibs that are as fine as Japanese fine nibs, however i've not seen any modern one like them. I have a vintage semi flex (or less) Montblanc 142 with a fine nib and it's quite easy to misalign the tines and write like (bleep) with it, it does have a fine line though and quite wet as well.

 

I'm not sure what example of western penmanship excellence you're referring to but i probably don't wish to aspire to it, I'm liking how my not so fine nibs shade and sheen.

 

But you can always send it to a nibmeister and get as fine a line as you want.

[NewPenMan]

Well I would like to be able to embrace broader nibs for the ink characteristics they reveal, but the sad truth is that my hand requires the finest possible line simply to be readable.

 

I might find alternate happiness one day with a cursive italic, but my everyday writer must be Japanese fine.

Edited September 17, 2015 by NewPenMan

[Kataphract]

You can flip a coin and answer this from either side. Arguably, since the European fine existed earlier it is more the standard, and the Japanese simply are doing a fine wrong by making it too skinny. Or the Japanese are doing a fat extra fine and calling it fine. So....you question only makes sense if you view the Japanese fine as the standard that the Europeans violated.

 

Though I do like the Japanese fines...

;-)

Edited September 17, 2015 by Kataphract

[NewPenMan]

For my part I don't care for arguments like that. Plus, they are undermined by samples of European script which are highly prized by western eyes, and which feature very fine lines.

 

That one culture did something first and there fore they "get" to claim ownership of the standard is, to me, very weak sauce.

 

Just my opinion....

Edited September 17, 2015 by NewPenMan

[Notgatherox]

Yes it has to do with how nowadays, most people entering the FP world comes from the ballpoint world. They're used to having put pressure on their pens to write. But that would ruin many nibs, so manufacturers make their nibs with more tipping so people won't have to put as much pressure (bigger tipping, more ink comes out, line gets smoother, less pressure needed).

 

Plus, more tipping means the pressure won't destroy the nibs so easily.

 

Compare that to an era where people grew up using FPs, and knew how to treat the pens properly. Of course the fines of that time could afford to be truly fine.

 

The demographic of users change, and with that, the line width changes also.

 

 

 

~Epic

[Algester]

To me only the japanese steel nibs make that distinctive japanese fine line the gold nibs... Differ a little bit I'm not sire why but I only have 1 asian gold nib and that a custom heritage 91 soft medium (writes like a western medium) which is hopefully currently enroute to pilot japan for a repair on a leaky section after a hideous drop

Edited September 17, 2015 by Algester

[Kataphract]

That one culture did something first and there fore they "get" to claim ownership of the standard is, to me, very weak sauce.

Just my opinion....

I was pointing out the silliness of the guy getting there second (or third or fourth) defining it, which seems to me, *exceedingly* weak sauce. Compare Euro EFs with Japanese Fs and be done with it, in my opinion. They are what they are, and the designations are just aids for figuring what the nib is like.

[NewPenMan]

If you need to put a tire on your car, you need the right size, and not the interpretation of what that size should be based on some guy making it first and deciding with his glands what size you need.

Edited September 17, 2015 by NewPenMan

[Kataphract]

If you need to put a tire on your car, you need the right size, and not the interpretation of what that size should be based on some guy making it first and thinking with his glands what size you need.

And those are precise measurements, for example, 205/50 R15. What you are saying then, is why is .35 mm finer than a... .35 mm? The answer is it isn't. So, if you have something nebulously called a fine that is in fact .35 mm wide and something that is called an extra-fine but is in fact .35 mm wide (chosen because those are the widths of my Pilot F and Twsbi (German nib) EF), then which is "finer? The problem is the terminology, and you are arbitrarily taking one side as the proper definition, when in fact, there is no proper or agreed upon definition. The Japanese simply seem to have settled on a narrower width to call "fine". Doesn't make them right, doesn't make them wrong, but it most certainly doesn't mean that somehow the European pens are lacking, they just have a different standard. But if you go by an actual standard, such as precise measurements in metric, the same measurement is the same measurement.

[NewPenMan]

Here are examples of what I mean from Pelikan's own site. For me, only the "EF" actually looks fine. Their Fine and Medium look the same, and the Broad not much fatter than Fine. To me, it seems that their sense of "Fine" is weighted in a sense toward the fatter end of the spectrum.

 

Pelikan Writing Samples

[NewPenMan]

And those are precise measurements, for example, 205/50 R15. What you are saying then, is why is .35 mm finer than a... .35 mm? The answer is it isn't. So, if you have something nebulously called a fine that is in fact .35 mm wide and something that is called an extra-fine but is in fact .35 mm wide (chosen because those are the widths of my Pilot F and Twsbi (German nib) EF), then which is "finer? The problem is the terminology, and you are arbitrarily taking one side as the proper definition, when in fact, there is no proper or agreed upon definition. The Japanese simply seem to have settled on a narrower width to call "fine". Doesn't make them right, doesn't make them wrong, but it most certainly doesn't mean that somehow the European pens are lacking, they just have a different standard. But if you go by an actual standard, such as precise measurements in metric, the same measurement is the same measurement.

 

I'm not interested in entertaining this type of argumentation. I've already given abundant examples of what I mean. If you have a differing opinion on the subject, I salute and celebrate that.

 

Good day.

Edited September 17, 2015 by NewPenMan

[pajaro]

Here are examples of what I mean from Pelikan's own site. For me, only the "EF" actually looks fine. Their Fine and Medium look the same, and the Broad not much fatter than Fine. To me, it seems that their sense of "Fine" is weighted in a sense toward the fatter end of the spectrum.

 

Pelikan Writing Samples

 

This is what the other posters have been telling you. The European pen makers have different standards of nib widths from American pen makers, and the Japanese have a different standard again, with the German pen makers being wider than American and Japanese having a thinner standard than either. All the who's on first and opinion about who is right does no good. You just have to accept the reality of what is offered in the market and purchase accordingly, whether you buy new or used.

[NewPenMan]

Yes, I get that there is a difference; hence my post. :-)

 

I think one of the folks above had a pretty good explanation about many ppl being new to FPs, probably tend to bear down, and/or otherwise unaccustomed to the slight usage changes required by the fountain pen.

 

Thank you!

[Kataphract]

I'm not interested in entertaining this type of argumentation. I've already given abundant examples of what I mean. If you have a differing opinion on the subject, I salute and celebrate that.

 

Good day.

If you state an opinion, acknowledge that it is an opinion, and do so on a public message board, be prepared for people stating other opinions. If your only option is to get huffy about such, perhaps you should rethink what is involved in an exchange of ideas. Edited September 17, 2015 by Kataphract

[NewPenMan]

Not huffy at all (kindly re-read) but I part company with those who attempt to put words into my mouth, eg, "What you are saying then, is why is .35 mm finer than a... .35 mm?"

 

When you do something like that, you lose all cred with me.

[Kataphract]

Not huffy at all (kindly re-read) but I part company with those who attempt to put words into my mouth, eg, "What you are saying then, is why is .35 mm finer than a... .35 mm?"

 

When you do something like that, you lose all cred with me.

Sounds even huffier this time. Perhaps you should have just left it at the dismissive "good day".

 

And no, I didn't put words into your mouth, I applied logic to the very example you selected, the tire size. If you are going to apply tire size to pen widths, be aware the former uses precise measurements and formula. And that's what I went with. That you didn't realize what you said doesn't mean you didn't effectively say it. If you wish to say your misspoke, and that the tire example was poorly chosen, then we can go from there. If you are determined to be insulted, then perhaps I should just place you on ignore and spare everyone else any further exchange.

[NewPenMan]

You are mis-interpreting frankness with "huffyness". Perhaps you are unaccustomed to people disagreeing with either your points or with the manner of communicating them.

 

I see no benefit to continued communication with you. Kindly stop.

[jvcn]

Perhaps a neutral way of asking this question is that many Euro EF today are a lot like many vintage American Fine nibs. Is something more like the Asian F or EF unneeded in Europe? I would also think that the greater prevalence of cheap paper today would argue for EF nibs with less showthrough and feathering. But perhaps this doesn't matter so much as fewer and fewer students need to write copiously in elaborate cursive today?

[Kataphract]

You are mis-interpreting frankness with "huffyness".

You are incorrect in thinking them mutually exclusiove terms.

 

Perhaps you are unaccustomed to people disagreeing with either your points or with the manner of communicating them.

Hey, you are the one who got huffy and tried to dimiss me without a substantive response. Which I pointed out already. Surely you can do better than, "I know you are but what am I?"?

 

I see no benefit to continued communication with you. Kindly stop.

With pleasure! Placing you on ignore.