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Non-Permanent Inks - What Happens?


FeuBleu

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I've seen inks listed as permanent, bulletproof, registrar's, and so on, but am unsure what exactly occurs over time with inks that are not so labelled. Do they just fade away? Do they eat at the pages if a lower pH? Over what time period should I expect such deterioration?

 

I am handwriting notes for a research degree involving a large project, and just wondering if I should make special effort to ensure I do so using a 'permanent' ink? I currently use Lamy and Kaweco inks, but have three beautiful bottles of Iroshizuku on the way that I intend to use for this purpose. I am writing in a Leuchtturm1917 notebook.

 

Given the context of my use, is this something I should realistically be worried about? I'd like my notes to remain usable for a couple decades or so I suppose, but whilst of course I don't want my notes to fade away it does seem overkill to purposefully seek an ink that guarantees a century of permanence!

 

Whilst you are here and thinking about the topic, do you have any recommendations for inks in blue-black, dark teal, dark green, and generally stormy colours?

 

Thank you! :D

Conid R DCB DB FT Ti & Montblanc 146 stub nib | Lamy 2000; Vista | Montblanc 90th Anni Legrand | Pelikan M800 Burnt Orange; M805 Stresemann | Pilot Prera; VP Guilloche | Visconti Fiorenza Lava LE; Homo Sapiens Bronze

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If kept in a dry environment and away from sunlight and on most modern papers, your writings, in almost any modern ink, should last for far longer than you will :)

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Usually, permanent refers to an ink's water resistance. That being said, I would imaging that most permanent inks would fade slightly less over a long period of time.

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In the 1960's, I fell in love with a girl named Rebecca. The older I get, the better she looked. :lticaptd:

I wrote a great deal about her in my journal, a black-cover, composition notebook. I used a Parker 45 with washable blue ink. Five years ago, my parents moved to a senior community. We came across the journal. It was entirely readable. I wonder where Rebecca is today.

Auf freiem Grund mit freiem Volke stehn.
Zum Augenblicke dürft ich sagen:
Verweile doch, du bist so schön !

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Sasha, what was the ink you used back then? Because modern Quink Washable Blue (at least what's in the Parker cartridges) faded to the point of illegibility in a closed journal.... I tried it when I had trouble getting Permanent Blue carts anymore (and I can't get the bottled Permanent Blue either -- found a few Ebay sellers in the UK, but they all said that they weren't allowed to ship it the US).

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

"It's very nice, but frankly, when I signed that list for a P-51, what I had in mind was a fountain pen."

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Never mind fading.....to my way of thinking, if you are writing something you don't wish to erase, why would you even bother with something that could wash way if you spilled coffee on it?

 

Seriously...if you want to read it tomorrow, next month or 25 years from now...use permanent.

 

I write letters with any ink I want but I don't address envelopes with anything other than permanent ink because rain, coffee and spit happens. ;)

 

...as for recommendations (none of which are bullet proof) : Sheaffer ~ Blue-Black / De Atrementis ~ Plum / Sailor ~ Tokiwa-Matsu / J. Herbin ~ Stormy Grey

Edited by Pira
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The problem is that the word 'Permanent' has different meanings in different contexts.

For some it means waterproof. For others it means fadeproof. For Parker, it means more water resistant than their Washable inks.

Some inks will fade quickly on paper that was bleached with sulphites, while staying pristine on unbleached, archival papers. Parker Quink inks in particular.

 

Exposure to light (especially bright sunlight) and air (oxygen) will fade some inks that would otherwise remain unchanged in a closed journal.

 

It would be best to use the particular terms and their precise meaning.

 

Archival - will stay unchanged for at least 100 years when protected from bright light. May be removable by some solvents.

 

Bulletproof - chemically bonds with cellulose fibres to make it difficult to impossible to remove with all common chemical solvents. Length of time without fading unknown.

 

Registrar's Ink - made to a government mandated formula to produce an ink to be used for legal records. Will last unfaded in a closed book for over 200 years. Can be removed/faded by bleach.

 

Pigmented - contains ultra-fine coloured pigments (usually black or blue) that cannot be easily dissolved and removed, and which will last many years without fading.

 

Waterproof - Most, if not all, ink will remain after being soaked or rinsed with water. May be removable with other solvents.

 

Water Resistant - Enough ink will remain after soaking or rinsing with water to be perfectly readable.

 

Washable - easily removable from paper or clothes with water and/or mild detergent. May not be easily removable from child's face/hands or the family pet.

 

Permanent - meaningless, do not use without context.

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“Them as can do has to do for them as can’t.


And someone has to speak up for them as has no voices.”


Granny Aching

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Given the context of my use, is this something I should realistically be worried about? I'd like my notes to remain usable for a couple decades or so I suppose, but whilst of course I don't want my notes to fade away it does seem overkill to purposefully seek an ink that guarantees a century of permanence!

 

Whilst you are here and thinking about the topic, do you have any recommendations for inks in blue-black, dark teal, dark green, and generally stormy colours?

 

Thank you! :D

 

Many modern inks will just fade away in bright sunlight - just fade away, gone; some in just a week. Stored in a cool, dry, closed book they will probably last for a couple of decades.

 

I just finished a test of inks (43 of them) in a closed book soaking in water. Some inks migrated to adjacient pages, some diffused away completely, some remained looking like they had just been written.

 

So what is overkill? If permanent, bulletproof, near-bulletproof, and archival inks are so easily acquired, why not use them?

Can a calculator understand a cash register?

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The problem is that the word 'Permanent' has different meanings in different contexts.

For some it means waterproof. For others it means fadeproof. For Parker, it means more water resistant than their Washable inks.

Some inks will fade quickly on paper that was bleached with sulphites, while staying pristine on unbleached, archival papers. Parker Quink inks in particular.

 

Exposure to light (especially bright sunlight) and air (oxygen) will fade some inks that would otherwise remain unchanged in a closed journal.

 

It would be best to use the particular terms and their precise meaning.

 

Archival - will stay unchanged for at least 100 years when protected from bright light. May be removable by some solvents.

 

Bulletproof - chemically bonds with cellulose fibres to make it difficult to impossible to remove with all common chemical solvents. Length of time without fading unknown.

 

Registrar's Ink - made to a government mandated formula to produce an ink to be used for legal records. Will last unfaded in a closed book for over 200 years. Can be removed/faded by bleach.

 

Pigmented - contains ultra-fine coloured pigments (usually black or blue) that cannot be easily dissolved and removed, and which will last many years without fading.

 

Waterproof - Most, if not all, ink will remain after being soaked or rinsed with water. May be removable with other solvents.

 

Water Resistant - Enough ink will remain after soaking or rinsing with water to be perfectly readable.

 

Washable - easily removable from paper or clothes with water and/or mild detergent. May not be easily removable from child's face/hands or the family pet.

 

Permanent - meaningless, do not use without context.

 

 

Excellent point.

 

Determine your need(s) and simply choose the correct ink for the job. :)

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While the ink and paper are important, if these are critical to your research I'd scan or photo them for digital storage as well. Fires, floods and misplacement happen. I'd hate to think what I'd do if someone wanted me to find my old dissertation paper files. Those were done pre-easy scanning days, and I've moved many times since then. They're box somewhere, slowly getting eaten by bugs no doubt. Having a cloud-stored digital backup may save you.

"We can become expert in an erroneous view" --Tenzin Wangyal Rinoche
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At some point in the early '90s, I got a wonderful buy on Shaeffer Washable Blue ink. (I found 8 or 9 bottles in a drug store in Eastport, Maine -- unsold since sometime in the 1960s, with their original 29-cent prices on them!)

 

Over the years I used that ink up, and almost everything I wrote with it has faded significantly. In light, it faded to invisibility within a year, but even in the dark the fading was pretty bad. So I switched to Shaeffer Permanent Blue-Black and never has trouble again.

 

I assume this would happen with any ink called washable or not called permanent. My problem might have had something to do with the age of the bottles I bought, but they looked fine when they were new. (Or perhaps "washable" ink is even less stable than other non-permanent ink? This was originally marketed for kids to use in school).

 

So if I were you, I'd use some quality brand of ink called "permanent." The different synonyms for "permanent" used by various manufacturers are probably less important.

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How does eternal fit into this rating schema? Or is it just advertising hyperbole?

Yes, just like "Bulletproof".

 

From Noodler's website:

-QUOTE-

Bulletproof Ink is a term that may be a perpetually changing measure. As Noodlers developed greater durability in its inks, the definition of bulletproof evolved to accommodate new durability. When first described in Greg Clarks Ink Sampler magazine many years ago it generally referenced water resistance and some other archival qualities. Later the term evolved to include resistance to an increasing array of industrial solvents and bleaching agents and other tools of the forgers and severe tests in the Arizona sunlight over many months (as well as heat lamps, ageing ovens, biological attacks in moist conditions Hurricane Katrina situations for example among many further tests).

Eternal Ink is a marketing term that dates back almost to the early post-Civil War era, a reference to both ink and pen durability back then among several manufacturersit almost always means the same as bulletproof in the Noodlers Ink line today. Some inks resist bleaching less than others and may be described as Eternal more so than Bulletproof on some labels (one may resist until all print is gone and the pulp of the paper itself dissolves away, another might last a few hours and change color but not to the point of the paper dissolving, etc) but as is notable on one of the most durable Noodlers Inks BOTH terms are used upon the standard black label. In fighting the tools of the forger using a security document (one that has features such as water marks and numerical security lines) both terms are equally powerful.

-UNQUOTE-

YNWA - JFT97

 

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Thanks for posting this... I was unsure if it was just noodlers using this term or not.

 

Yes, just like "Bulletproof".

 

From Noodler's website:

-QUOTE-

Bulletproof Ink is a term that may be a perpetually changing measure. As Noodlers developed greater durability in its inks, the definition of bulletproof evolved to accommodate new durability. When first described in Greg Clarks Ink Sampler magazine many years ago it generally referenced water resistance and some other archival qualities. Later the term evolved to include resistance to an increasing array of industrial solvents and bleaching agents and other tools of the forgers and severe tests in the Arizona sunlight over many months (as well as heat lamps, ageing ovens, biological attacks in moist conditions Hurricane Katrina situations for example among many further tests).

Eternal Ink is a marketing term that dates back almost to the early post-Civil War era, a reference to both ink and pen durability back then among several manufacturersit almost always means the same as bulletproof in the Noodlers Ink line today. Some inks resist bleaching less than others and may be described as Eternal more so than Bulletproof on some labels (one may resist until all print is gone and the pulp of the paper itself dissolves away, another might last a few hours and change color but not to the point of the paper dissolving, etc) but as is notable on one of the most durable Noodlers Inks BOTH terms are used upon the standard black label. In fighting the tools of the forger using a security document (one that has features such as water marks and numerical security lines) both terms are equally powerful.

-UNQUOTE-

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One of the great resources here on FPN in the board is the Fade Olympics. The concerted effort by the board members to test a wide range of inks in the tough conditions of Las Vegas led to some great results that can inform your decision for permanence. But also take a look around at some members who have been writing with fountain pens for decades, and the review of their old writings are favorable.

 

You may also want to consider more than just permanence of your inks. High maintenance inks (ones with high dye loads, pigment, or iron gall) may give you the characteristics you would like but may be difficult to clean in your pens. You should also consider that some inks work better with certain nibs.

 

I want my journals, notes, and reminders to last, but I don't exclusively use pigment, iron gall, or archival inks. I've been pleased with the results so far.

 

Buzz

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The definitive answer to your question about the meanings of the various labels for fountain pen inks is "It depends."

 

If you really want the ink to last as long as the paper something like Noodler's Black will do it. Private Reserve also has a couple of inks, last I looked, that will last and will resist attacks and accidents that don't destroy the paper. The Noodler's "Bulletproof" label is one that means that what's written will last on paper.

 

The Noodler's "Eternal" label means that it is an archival ink, will last as long as the paper without fading, but might not resist some attacks. If you figure that what you're writing will not have to stand up to sophisticated forgery tools using all sorts of chemicals then this ink is probably good enough.

 

The various "Washable" inks are made for schools so that kids don't stain their clothing permanently when they spill ink on themselves. They are reported to fade in short order sometimes.

 

For purposes of answering your question I have just looked at some old, meaningless scribbles I did in the past.

 

I have some Sheaffer Skrip Jet Black ink writing that is 48 years old and it looks just fine.

 

I have some Sheaffer Skrip Permanent Blue/Black ink writing that's 49 years old and it also looks just fine.

 

I can't swear that both inks look exactly as they did decades ago, but they do look that way to me. Also, I should note that these are the old inks made by Sheaffer when it was in America. These inks are different from anything made in the Slovenian factory that has the Sheaffer name today.

 

So HTH, YMMV and good luck in keeping what you write readable.

On a sacred quest for the perfect blue ink mixture!

ink stained wretch filling inkwell

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