Jump to content

Swan Leverless - 1060?


grainweevil

Recommended Posts

Well now, I fancy this brand spanking new forum may explain why I was having to use Google's cached pages to find info on Swan numbering this morning! Not that it did me much good, for here I am hoping for some expert clarification on what I have here. As a picture tells etc etc, on with the pixels:

fpn_1440688466__swanleverless01.jpg

fpn_1440688500__swanleverless02.jpg

128mm (5ins) capped, 117mm (4 5/8in) uncapped, maximum barrel diameter of 12.5mm (1/2in)

I apologise unreservedly for the dust; my DIY light box has lain dormant for longer than I realised - and apparently in the interim I've forgotten how to focus. But you get the gist, I hope.

fpn_1440688580__swanleverless03.jpg

Somewhere or other I came across the barrel imprint with the Swan on the left as being a "type A" and thus earlier...?

fpn_1440688636__swanleverless04.jpg

Everwhere, bar Marshall and Oldfield in Pen Repair, seem to say I should be looking at a metal button/insert/doodah with a Swan at the top of the cap. So again, earlier?

fpn_1440688945__swanleverless05.jpg

fpn_1440688968__swanleverless06.jpg

I confess it was the No. 4 Eternal nib I went for - stiff as a board, but broad. Yum.

Other possible pertinent facts are "Swan" L4 on the feed (as you can't see...) and on the section, and "Swan" on the cap. No model number anywhere.

I have fully gathered that Swan numbering is not an exact science, but have I hit the correctly numbered coconut? Or no cigar? Failing that, how do I go about working out what size necked sac I need if it isn't a 1060...? :unsure: (I gather a #21 x 2 13/16 is the size if it is)

Thank you for your time and any observations, pens and cobs (and cygnets).

Cheers, Al

Edited by grainweevil
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 16
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

  • grainweevil

    7

  • Cob

    7

  • birchtine

    2

  • Greenie

    1

Top Posters In This Topic

Well now, I fancy this brand spanking new forum may explain why I was having to use Google's cached pages to find info on Swan numbering this morning! Not that it did me much good, for here I am hoping for some expert clarification on what I have here. As a picture tells etc etc, on with the pixels:

 

fpn_1440688466__swanleverless01.jpg

 

fpn_1440688500__swanleverless02.jpg

 

128mm (5ins) capped, 117mm (4 5/8in) uncapped, maximum barrel diameter of 12.5mm (1/2in)

 

I apologise unreservedly for the dust; my DIY light box has lain dormant for longer than I realised - and apparently in the interim I've forgotten how to focus. But you get the gist, I hope.

 

fpn_1440688580__swanleverless03.jpg

 

Somewhere or other I came across the barrel imprint with the Swan on the left as being a "type A" and thus earlier...?

 

fpn_1440688636__swanleverless04.jpg

 

Everwhere, bar Marshall and Oldfield in Pen Repair, seem to say I should be looking at a metal button/insert/doodah with a Swan at the top of the cap. So again, earlier?

 

fpn_1440688945__swanleverless05.jpg

 

fpn_1440688968__swanleverless06.jpg

 

I confess it was the No. 4 Eternal nib I went for - stiff as a board, but broad. Yum.

 

Other possible pertinent facts are "Swan" L4 on the feed (as you can't see...) and on the section, and "Swan" on the cap. No model number anywhere.

 

I have fully gathered that Swan numbering is not an exact science, but have I hit the correctly numbered coconut? Or no cigar? Failing that, how do I go about working out what size necked sac I need if it isn't a 1060...? :unsure: (I gather a #21 x 2 13/16 is the size if it is)

 

Thank you for your time and any observations, pens and cobs (and cygnets).

 

Cheers, Al

Wonderful isn't it how many odd Swans come out of the woodwork!

.

As I looked at the pictures I expected to see a No 2 Nib and was all ready to write ah! a L245/60

 

I would say that this pen is a L445/60 from about 1934. I once had a L445/60 but it was a later model and I seem to recall that it had a single wide band (I could be wrong as my memory is unreliable) - rather like the L470/60 I have now. I should say that your pen is quite rare as it is a de luxe model. The metal insert was a late feature probably introduced about 1938

 

By the way, my L470/60 has a hallmark on the band which dates it at 1934; the clip type is the same as yours: the screw incorporates a slot and the clip has curved tines that wrap around the screw. This feature is also found on the L3xx pens (I have one and so does Greenie!)

 

Sorry: another edit. Yes a 21 sac would be good; as 21s are less common and I have 22s, I use one of these and tie it to the nipple with thread whilst the shellac is setting. With leverless pens of this type it is wise to use the largest possible sac that one can jam into the pen. This of course has to be done without the nib and feed in place so that a blunt instrument may be used to push the sac up the barrel.

Cob

Edited by Cob

fpn_1428963683__6s.jpg “The pen of the British Empire” fpn_1423349537__swan_sign_is.jpg


Link to comment
Share on other sites

or rather L445B/60 since the pen is quite short and almost of the same length as my L245B/60 clipless

 

Edit: are you sure there is no number imprinted on the knob?

Edited by birchtine
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Gosh, thanks chaps - you move fast! An Lxxx/xx model number; huh. I did briefly consider that, but was all at sea almost immediately so paddled hastily back to four digit numbers again.

So as I understand it from this chart, that'd translate as Leverless 4 (nib size) 45 (cap band style, somehow, known only to MT&Co) B (short) /60 (black - appearance and smell suggests BHR top to the cap, end knob, and section, celluloid (?) for the rest). And I thought identifying Watermans was complicated...

Well that's excellent, thank you. And for the sac advice. I've already successfully removed the section before I read "quite rare" (thank goodness), and Pen Repair is at my elbow, just need the sac; it'll be interesting to do something a little different from the run-of-the-mill lever filler.

Cheers, Al

Edit: are you sure there is no number imprinted on the knob?


Crawled over it with a loupe, and I can't make any of the scuff marks resolve into figures. There might have been one; it's certainly not lived on velvet.

Edited by grainweevil
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am definitely NOT the numbering guru. So my comments are in part to elicit replies for my own education.

 

L4xx/60 is the easy part. The xx is variable and seems to be based on banding. My later model L4xx pens include two with a single wide band and are imprinted L410.

The band at the top of the cap is unusual as well.

 

I can't come up with the years, BUT

The flatter end knob and flat cap top with swan imprint is the earlier version of the leverless.

The clip, on the other hand, is a later clip.

Someone could probably narrow down the date by the overlapping time frame of these two features Very nice pen with some very nice unusual features..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

or rather L445B/60 since the pen is quite short and almost of the same length as my L245B/60 clipless

 

Edit: are you sure there is no number imprinted on the knob?

No it's not a B. My L470/60. L300/64 - and your L330.64 are all the same length!

 

C.

Edited by Cob

fpn_1428963683__6s.jpg “The pen of the British Empire” fpn_1423349537__swan_sign_is.jpg


Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am definitely NOT the numbering guru. So my comments are in part to elicit replies for my own education.

 

L4xx/60 is the easy part. The xx is variable and seems to be based on banding. My later model L4xx pens include two with a single wide band and are imprinted L410.

The band at the top of the cap is unusual as well.

 

I can't come up with the years, BUT

The flatter end knob and flat cap top with swan imprint is the earlier version of the leverless.

The clip, on the other hand, is a later clip.

Someone could probably narrow down the date by the overlapping time frame of these two features Very nice pen with some very nice unusual features..

Clip is identical to that on my L300/64 and its fitting is the same as the 1934 L470/60/ I think that the strange fitment is a clue. Also the top band suggests an earlier pen as it harks back to the 142/242 series.

 

C.

Edited by Cob

fpn_1428963683__6s.jpg “The pen of the British Empire” fpn_1423349537__swan_sign_is.jpg


Link to comment
Share on other sites

Would the earlier cap top with the later clip explain why the slot/indent in the cap is so much wider than the clip? Because I was wondering about that.

 

This is all most instructional - I thought I'd get a single "Yes, it's a XXXX - very common. Nice pen, enjoy" and that's it. This is much more fun, although Google's getting a thorough workout every time another number is mentioned!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Would the earlier cap top with the later clip explain why the slot/indent in the cap is so much wider than the clip? Because I was wondering about that.

 

This is all most instructional - I thought I'd get a single "Yes, it's a XXXX - very common. Nice pen, enjoy" and that's it. This is much more fun, although Google's getting a thorough workout every time another number is mentioned!

Well the cap is obviously original to the pen. The leverless patent was issued in 1932 and I understand that the pens first appeared in 1933. As for the slot in the cap, I would need to see a picture from the front. No clip as far as I know was wider at the top. There have been cases where the tops of such caps (also fitted to Visofils incidentally) have been damaged through insufficient care being taken when refitting the clips which being a fairly tight fit into the slot on the screw are apt to "pick up" on the underside of the screw and to rotate when being fitted thus damaging the top of the cap.

 

As for the decoration, well that was merely speculation on my part!

 

Cob

Edited by Cob

fpn_1428963683__6s.jpg “The pen of the British Empire” fpn_1423349537__swan_sign_is.jpg


Link to comment
Share on other sites

As for the slot in the cap, I would need to see a picture from the front.

Can do:

 

fpn_1440756562__swanleverless07.jpg

 

The left is obviously damage, but I've peered underneath the clip as best I can and if the slot was widened that much to the left unintentionally, someone did a bang up job of tidying it up neatly. I dunno, maybe it was a fraught day at Mabie Todd and this explains the clip fitter over-cutting, the number stamper forgetting, and the nib slit cutter going off centre! Friday afternoon, perhaps?!

 

No clip as far as I know was wider at the top.

 

Ah, that's what I wasn't at all sure about. Thanks.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here's a snap of two of mine: the L300/64 (unnumbered) and the L470/60. Note the unusual clip on the L300.

 

fpn_1440760142__l300_64_l470_60.jpg

 

I have just remembered that a while back there was a L330/64 for sale that had a cap top with gold band like yours.

 

Cob

fpn_1428963683__6s.jpg “The pen of the British Empire” fpn_1423349537__swan_sign_is.jpg


Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry, Cob, somehow missed this. Missed the fine nuance of the clip too, but see it now.

 

Anyway, just thought I'd update for the benefit of anyone finding themselves in a similar position that a #21 x 2 13/16 necked sac is too long (I'm a muppet; never thought to order a #21 x 2in as well), so looks like I shall be trying a #22 and thread, which sounds not unlike fly tying. Which would be great, if I'd ever done fly tying...!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No need to order sacs by length: one just cuts them down to size. The procedure is explained here and no doubt in many other places too!

 

Cob

fpn_1428963683__6s.jpg “The pen of the British Empire” fpn_1423349537__swan_sign_is.jpg


Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ah, you probably missed that it was a necked sac, Cob. I'd have to lop off the narrowed neck area, which would rather defeat the point.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well if you can find necked sacs, you are fortunate! I have in fact have had to cut down the two necked sacs I did find in order to repair a couple of big leverless pens.

 

If one is fortunate one finds that one has a pen made after MT came to their senses and provided the leverless sections with a decent-sized nipple!

 

Cob

fpn_1428963683__6s.jpg “The pen of the British Empire” fpn_1423349537__swan_sign_is.jpg


Link to comment
Share on other sites

vintagepensacsandparts.com are stocking them now (Chilipea on Ebay, iirc). Although I could do with a guide to how the length is measured - I can't find an obvious reason for why this one is described as 2 13/16 ins. It's 3 ins. overall and 2 1/2 ins. to the "neck". Hey ho.

 

The nipple on this one is not too bad for size, and with the helpful little ridge as well, I have good hopes I'll get a good fit with the spliced #22. But if anyone wants to cross their fingers for me, I sharn't object!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Most Contributions

    1. amberleadavis
      amberleadavis
      43844
    2. PAKMAN
      PAKMAN
      33501
    3. Ghost Plane
      Ghost Plane
      28220
    4. inkstainedruth
      inkstainedruth
      26627
    5. jar
      jar
      26101
  • Upcoming Events

  • Blog Comments

    • Shanghai Knife Dude
      I have the Sailor Naginata and some fancy blade nibs coming after 2022 by a number of new workshop from China.  With all my respect, IMHO, they are all (bleep) in doing chinese characters.  Go use a bush, or at least a bush pen. 
    • A Smug Dill
      It is the reason why I'm so keen on the idea of a personal library — of pens, nibs, inks, paper products, etc. — and spent so much money, as well as time and effort, to “build” it for myself (because I can't simply remember everything, especially as I'm getting older fast) and my wife, so that we can “know”; and, instead of just disposing of what displeased us, or even just not good enough to be “given the time of day” against competition from >500 other pens and >500 other inks for our at
    • adamselene
      Agreed.  And I think it’s good to be aware of this early on and think about at the point of buying rather than rationalizing a purchase..
    • A Smug Dill
      Alas, one cannot know “good” without some idea of “bad” against which to contrast; and, as one of my former bosses (back when I was in my twenties) used to say, “on the scale of good to bad…”, it's a spectrum, not a dichotomy. Whereas subjectively acceptable (or tolerable) and unacceptable may well be a dichotomy to someone, and finding whether the threshold or cusp between them lies takes experiencing many degrees of less-than-ideal, especially if the decision is somehow influenced by factors o
    • adamselene
      I got my first real fountain pen on my 60th birthday and many hundreds of pens later I’ve often thought of what I should’ve known in the beginning. I have many pens, the majority of which have some objectionable feature. If they are too delicate, or can’t be posted, or they are too precious to face losing , still they are users, but only in very limited environments..  I have a big disliking for pens that have the cap jump into the air and fly off. I object to Pens that dry out, or leave blobs o
  • Chatbox

    You don't have permission to chat.
    Load More
  • Files






×
×
  • Create New...